Help With Seperation Anxiety.....PLEASE!

[Mark Moore]

Great first post, I know, but here it is.

3-1/2 yrs. ago we adopted a female GSP about 4 yrs. old(not sure if pure bred or mix) from a rescue organization in Washington state. In retrospect, we made a not fully informed decision but we are where we are. I now believe they had sedated the dog given her behavior during the adoption process and told us they didn't know her background. They also said she was great with kids and cats. All the kids have lived through the encounters (thank God she has a soft mouth), however the cat lived in the ceiling of our basement for 3 months. My wife finally got them acclimated and they live at relative peace, the cat is quick to put the dog in her place. She also freaks out completely when there are fireworks (gun shy maybe?)

This is our first experience with any kind of hunting dog. She has very obviously been trained as she responds to hand signals and is generally obedient when settled. Outside is a different story, the second she is on a scent she's gone. I now take her out on a 30' lead to get work.

When it is just us in the house she is great and my wife is very attached to the dog (source of the problem I think). But when we leave she destroys something, every single time. We hired a behaviorist, $700 later no better. The Vet put her on anxiety meds, no help and I am currently stepping her down off of these as I don't like the idea of drugging a dog any more than a human.

She has broken out of wire metal crates so I built a K9 Kondo out of a plastic barrel with a wooden door (lots of ventilation)...she chewed through the door. My next step is an outdoor kennel. Exercise doesn't seem to help and some days when she is exercised hard are the days she does the most damage. Crazy part is the few times I have taken her to work with me she's done great. I'm in and out of my truck all day so she's never alone for long.

I get that some people shouldn't own hunting dogs and that the owner is usually the problem with a maladjusted dog.... so please, no ridicule or condescension. We love the dog but need some improvement for everybody's sake. I don't think the behaviorist had the right approach for a hunting dog and that's why I'm reaching out here.

Thank you.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Don't be so hard on yourself. You rescued this dog and just need some direction in controlling her. Your entire family needs to be on the same page when it comes to reshaping behavior.

A couple of general questions to get things rolling:

1. Do you intend to eventually hunt the dog. (The dog would greatly benefit from a job of some sort.)

2. How would you rate the dog on the spoiled rotten scale 1-10. (Be specific as possible - She sleeps in our bed and has free reign in the house - 9.5)

Nate

[Nutmeg247]

Totally agree on not being heard on yourself, and in fact giving yourself credit where you stepped into a situation with a dog with 4 prior years of learning to deal with.

In terms of trying to crate the dog in a K-9 condo, that sounds too confining for me -- I'm not surprised she wanted to chew her way out, once she wanted out. As a place the dog chooses to sleep, that's a different story. A good strong crate with one sturdy chew-toy inside could be a good initial part of managing this issue.

As for sleeping arrangements, dogs used to sleeping crated in their own room seem anecdotally to have a much lower incidence of separation anxiety. I am not a dog trainer though, so take this with a big grain of salt in my case.

Sounds like you do have some desensitization and counterconditioning to do for loud noises in general -- there are some recent threads on here on gunshyness that should apply in principle to other loud noises, too.

Hard to tell from your write-up whether she was fear-aggressive with your kids, or just playing mouthy games. Since you say the kids weren't hurt and she has a soft mouth, I assume she was just playing with the kids in a way that's normal for dogs but can be unsettling for people who haven't seen it.

Aside from other general obedience work, have you done any work on her learning calming or settled behaviors? For instance, sits or lies on a mat to the side of the table, quietly, at mealtimes, or must lie or sit to the side when greeting company? In terms of her doing the most damage when she's exercised hard, sounds to me like she's revved up from the exercise and doesn't yet know how to come down without an outlet, such as a cushion to tear up.

The fact that she sounds overall like a good dog already and does well when in the truck alone for brief periods makes it sound like an issue you can work through. It's great that you're committed to doing this with her.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Most hunting dogs that have many birds killed over them don't like fireworks & a lot of them don't like thunder storms either & if you have some one in the house that reacts to them only makes the dogs worse.
I have seen some dog owners that actually make their dogs sycotic because of their actions but some rescue dogs can be a challenge.You very seldom know what they been through.

Good Luck!

[MikeB]

Mark,
What exactly was the medication your vet sold you for her seperation anxiety? I have used Clomicalm with pretty good sucess with a dog I had some years ago. Seperation Anxiety is a very difficult condition to cure as I don't think most dogs like yours can ever be normal when left alone. As you have seen she needs some one around to feel secure and calm. A lot of dogs with SA go to doggie day care centers when their owners need to leave them for several hours. It is very difficult for most active families unless you can take the dog along all the time. I do believe their are techniques to learn how to teach the dog to relax when let alone along with proper medication like Clomicalm .

If you would write me at my e-mail address I would be happy to discuss this in more detail with you. thedogtrainer@yahoo.com

MikeB

[gonehuntin']

GWP's are famous for problems with separation anxiety and there is NO WAY to correct it. It gets better with age. The only fool proof way around it is to teach he a kennel (vari-kennel or 1/4" wire) is her cave, her safe haven, and keep her in it. If she gets used to that being her "cave", she will be secure in it and you'll be able to leave her un-attended.

What she has to know is that you'll always return. Teach her the "kennel" command, which she probably all ready knows and start by putting her in it for 15-30 minutes at a time. Never comfort her when she is in it. If she raises cain, tell her NO most firmly.

Once she is good in it for that long, leave for an hour or two, come back, and let her out.

If all goes well, lock her up for the night with the kennel close to your bed.

When that's good, move the kennel to her regular place in the house and leave her for the night.

It will take firmness to make her trustworthy, but you can do it. The kennel is the whole key to your problem.

[Nutmeg247]

I looked back over the first post, and don't see any mention of digestive issues, the dog relieving itself inside the house when left alone, vomiting, excess salivation, or other signs of panic such as frantic yelping, when first left alone. That, along with the fact the dog seems ok in the truck, makes me wonder how long she takes to start up once left alone in the house. Could you use a computer webcam or something similar to monitor this?

If none of these are happening, and she does take a while before she becomes destructive, she could be more on the bored end of the spectrum than the anxious end. Which would be a good thing in terms of it being easier to address.

[shags]

GWP's are famous for problems with separation anxiety and there is NO WAY to correct it. It gets better with age. The only fool proof way around it is to teach he a kennel (vari-kennel or 1/4" wire) is her cave, her safe haven, and keep her in it. If she gets used to that being her "cave", she will be secure in it and you'll be able to leave her un-attended.

What she has to know is that you'll always return. Teach her the "kennel" command, which she probably all ready knows and start by putting her in it for 15-30 minutes at a time. Never comfort her when she is in it. If she raises cain, tell her NO most firmly.

Once she is good in it for that long, leave for an hour or two, come back, and let her out.

If all goes well, lock her up for the night with the kennel close to your bed.

When that's good, move the kennel to her regular place in the house and leave her for the night.

It will take firmness to make her trustworthy, but you can do it. The kennel is the whole key to your problem.

Solid plan, this. Only thing I would add is to pay her no mind when you return. Make a cup of coffee, change your socks, do something anything for the first few minutes that you're home without paying any attention to her. Then if she's behaving, calmly and quietly let her out. Never make a big fuss about your return or her release from confinement.

[Sharon]

Great first post, I know, but here it is.

3-1/2 yrs. ago we adopted a female GSP about 4 yrs. old(not sure if pure bred or mix) from a rescue organization in Washington state. In retrospect, we made a not fully informed decision but we are where we are. I now believe they had sedated the dog given her behavior during the adoption process and told us they didn't know her background. They also said she was great with kids and cats. All the kids have lived through the encounters (thank God she has a soft mouth), however the cat lived in the ceiling of our basement for 3 months. My wife finally got them acclimated and they live at relative peace, the cat is quick to put the dog in her place. She also freaks out completely when there are fireworks (gun shy maybe?)

This is our first experience with any kind of hunting dog. She has very obviously been trained as she responds to hand signals and is generally obedient when settled. Outside is a different story, the second she is on a scent she's gone. I now take her out on a 30' lead to get work.

When it is just us in the house she is great and my wife is very attached to the dog (source of the problem I think). But when we leave she destroys something, every single time. We hired a behaviorist, $700 later no better. The Vet put her on anxiety meds, no help and I am currently stepping her down off of these as I don't like the idea of drugging a dog any more than a human.

She has broken out of wire metal crates so I built a K9 Kondo out of a plastic barrel with a wooden door (lots of ventilation)...she chewed through the door. My next step is an outdoor kennel. Exercise doesn't seem to help and some days when she is exercised hard are the days she does the most damage. Crazy part is the few times I have taken her to work with me she's done great. I'm in and out of my truck all day so she's never alone for long.

I get that some people shouldn't own hunting dogs and that the owner is usually the problem with a maladjusted dog.... so please, no ridicule or condescension. We love the dog but need some improvement for everybody's sake. I don't think the behaviorist had the right approach for a hunting dog and that's why I'm reaching out here.

Thank you.

.................................................................

I need to go back a ways. Sad that your FIRST dog has caused the family so much stress. "We love the dog but need some improvement for everybody's sake. "quote.

Are you saying you have had these dog problems for 3 1/2 years? What was the reason for the original owner giving up the dog. ? You've done more than most owners would ( behaviouist ).

You may have done all you can do.

I do not think , " the owner is usually the problem with a maladjusted dog", is the case in this situation.

PS How much hard running exercise does the dog get daily? You say you keep it on a 30 foot leash as the dog runs off. Does it run off and not come back or are you afraid it might not come back? Lack of hard exercise may be the real reason for the dog's behaviour. Can you find a large fenced area where the dog can run safely? A walk around the block for this kind of dog is a waste of time.

[Mark Moore]

Thanks for all the encouragement. I apologize for not responding sooner but the day I posted this she had her worst day ever and we've been dealing with fallout since.

I'll try to answer the questions posed by quoting them.

We have found and enlisted the services of a professional trainer who guarantees her success. She trains therapy dogs for PTSD effected soldiers as well as hunting dogs. Dolly will be going to stay with the trainer for 20 days and then we will be brought in to work with her. Not cheap but we're just not ready to give up.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

[Mark Moore]

Don't be so hard on yourself. You rescued this dog and just need some direction in controlling her. Your entire family needs to be on the same page when it comes to reshaping behavior.

A couple of general questions to get things rolling:

1. Do you intend to eventually hunt the dog. (The dog would greatly benefit from a job of some sort.)

2. How would you rate the dog on the spoiled rotten scale 1-10. (Be specific as possible - She sleeps in our bed and has free reign in the house - 9.5)

Nate

1. Probably not, but I fly fish quite a bit and would like to have her out with me on the river.

2. 10.5

[Mark Moore]

Totally agree on not being heard on yourself, and in fact giving yourself credit where you stepped into a situation with a dog with 4 prior years of learning to deal with.

In terms of trying to crate the dog in a K-9 condo, that sounds too confining for me -- I'm not surprised she wanted to chew her way out, once she wanted out. As a place the dog chooses to sleep, that's a different story. A good strong crate with one sturdy chew-toy inside could be a good initial part of managing this issue.

As for sleeping arrangements, dogs used to sleeping crated in their own room seem anecdotally to have a much lower incidence of separation anxiety. I am not a dog trainer though, so take this with a big grain of salt in my case.

Sounds like you do have some desensitization and counterconditioning to do for loud noises in general -- there are some recent threads on here on gunshyness that should apply in principle to other loud noises, too.

Hard to tell from your write-up whether she was fear-aggressive with your kids, or just playing mouthy games. Since you say the kids weren't hurt and she has a soft mouth, I assume she was just playing with the kids in a way that's normal for dogs but can be unsettling for people who haven't seen it.

Aside from other general obedience work, have you done any work on her learning calming or settled behaviors? For instance, sits or lies on a mat to the side of the table, quietly, at mealtimes, or must lie or sit to the side when greeting company? In terms of her doing the most damage when she's exercised hard, sounds to me like she's revved up from the exercise and doesn't yet know how to come down without an outlet, such as a cushion to tear up.

The fact that she sounds overall like a good dog already and does well when in the truck alone for brief periods makes it sound like an issue you can work through. It's great that you're committed to doing this with her.

She is definitely fear aggressive, we've just been lucky she hasn't hurt anyone.

[Mark Moore]

Mark,
What exactly was the medication your vet sold you for her seperation anxiety? I have used Clomicalm with pretty good sucess with a dog I had some years ago. Seperation Anxiety is a very difficult condition to cure as I don't think most dogs like yours can ever be normal when left alone. As you have seen she needs some one around to feel secure and calm. A lot of dogs with SA go to doggie day care centers when their owners need to leave them for several hours. It is very difficult for most active families unless you can take the dog along all the time. I do believe their are techniques to learn how to teach the dog to relax when let alone along with proper medication like Clomicalm .

If you would write me at my e-mail address I would be happy to discuss this in more detail with you. thedogtrainer@yahoo.com

MikeB

Thanks Mike.
The drug was Amitriptyline, we have learned this is an older and now, not favored drug for SA. We have stepped her off the drug and will wait to see how training works this time. The trainer won't even work with a dog that is presently drugged but isn't against it if required eventually I believe.

[Mark Moore]

GWP's are famous for problems with separation anxiety and there is NO WAY to correct it. It gets better with age. The only fool proof way around it is to teach he a kennel (vari-kennel or 1/4" wire) is her cave, her safe haven, and keep her in it. If she gets used to that being her "cave", she will be secure in it and you'll be able to leave her un-attended.

What she has to know is that you'll always return. Teach her the "kennel" command, which she probably all ready knows and start by putting her in it for 15-30 minutes at a time. Never comfort her when she is in it. If she raises cain, tell her NO most firmly.

Once she is good in it for that long, leave for an hour or two, come back, and let her out.

If all goes well, lock her up for the night with the kennel close to your bed.

When that's good, move the kennel to her regular place in the house and leave her for the night.

It will take firmness to make her trustworthy, but you can do it. The kennel is the whole key to your problem.

She's good with "Kennel Up" and will stay pretty much indefinitely if the door is open. Shut the door and she freaks.

[Mark Moore]

I looked back over the first post, and don't see any mention of digestive issues, the dog relieving itself inside the house when left alone, vomiting, excess salivation, or other signs of panic such as frantic yelping, when first left alone. That, along with the fact the dog seems ok in the truck, makes me wonder how long she takes to start up once left alone in the house. Could you use a computer webcam or something similar to monitor this?

If none of these are happening, and she does take a while before she becomes destructive, she could be more on the bored end of the spectrum than the anxious end. Which would be a good thing in terms of it being easier to address.

She had pretty bad allergies to grain when we got her so she is fed Acana grain free/high protein food (spendy stuff for sure).

She goes destructive almost immediately when we leave. The other day I left for 15 minutes and she went though two set of venetian blinds, curtains, chewed through a door jamb and tore up a 2'x4' section of carpet. All told probably $1000.00 of damage. I just had to shake my head in disbelief.

[Mark Moore]

Great first post, I know, but here it is.

3-1/2 yrs. ago we adopted a female GSP about 4 yrs. old(not sure if pure bred or mix) from a rescue organization in Washington state. In retrospect, we made a not fully informed decision but we are where we are. I now believe they had sedated the dog given her behavior during the adoption process and told us they didn't know her background. They also said she was great with kids and cats. All the kids have lived through the encounters (thank God she has a soft mouth), however the cat lived in the ceiling of our basement for 3 months. My wife finally got them acclimated and they live at relative peace, the cat is quick to put the dog in her place. She also freaks out completely when there are fireworks (gun shy maybe?)

This is our first experience with any kind of hunting dog. She has very obviously been trained as she responds to hand signals and is generally obedient when settled. Outside is a different story, the second she is on a scent she's gone. I now take her out on a 30' lead to get work.

When it is just us in the house she is great and my wife is very attached to the dog (source of the problem I think). But when we leave she destroys something, every single time. We hired a behaviorist, $700 later no better. The Vet put her on anxiety meds, no help and I am currently stepping her down off of these as I don't like the idea of drugging a dog any more than a human.

She has broken out of wire metal crates so I built a K9 Kondo out of a plastic barrel with a wooden door (lots of ventilation)...she chewed through the door. My next step is an outdoor kennel. Exercise doesn't seem to help and some days when she is exercised hard are the days she does the most damage. Crazy part is the few times I have taken her to work with me she's done great. I'm in and out of my truck all day so she's never alone for long.

I get that some people shouldn't own hunting dogs and that the owner is usually the problem with a maladjusted dog.... so please, no ridicule or condescension. We love the dog but need some improvement for everybody's sake. I don't think the behaviorist had the right approach for a hunting dog and that's why I'm reaching out here.

Thank you.

.................................................................

I need to go back a ways. Sad that your FIRST dog has caused the family so much stress. "We love the dog but need some improvement for everybody's sake. "quote.

Are you saying you have had these dog problems for 3 1/2 years? What was the reason for the original owner giving up the dog. ? You've done more than most owners would ( behaviouist ).

You may have done all you can do.

I do not think , " the owner is usually the problem with a maladjusted dog", is the case in this situation.

PS How much hard running exercise does the dog get daily? You say you keep it on a 30 foot leash as the dog runs off. Does it run off and not come back or are you afraid it might not come back? Lack of hard exercise may be the real reason for the dog's behaviour. Can you find a large fenced area where the dog can run safely? A walk around the block for this kind of dog is a waste of time.

This is our first "hunting dog", we have had other very successful dog ownership experiences and adopted this dog when our other dog was killed while in someone else's care. (that was a bad day)

We have had some issues for the entire 3 1/2 yrs but it seems like they spiked upward seriously over this winter. We were told she was given up because the original owner lost their house. However, I ABSOLUTELY disbelieve anything the adoption agency told us. I am also convinced they had her sedated when we interviewed the dog. It hadn't occurred to me until Fourth of July a couple years ago when we had to sedate her because of fireworks and I looked at her and realized that was exactly how she looked when we interviewed her. Once this has come to some conclusion I will probably contact them again with a written report of our experiences and conclusions. At the very least they should understand the grief they have wrought. I am typically a live and let live person, but they gave us zero support after the fact even as we tried to get a handle on the dog. It took almost a full year just to get the medical records on the dog. They may have been well intended but there is no excuse for misleading people in this kind of circumstance. We have since heard other less than glowing reports on this agency.

We do struggle to get her enough "off leash" running. Primarily because she has shown a strong tendency to chase whatever ever seems needs to be chased and won't return on command. The trainer we are starting her with next week again said she will guarantee "off leash" obedience. Truthfully, if I can have a fishing companion again like my last dog, it will be worth the price