Blinking Birds

asimon · Post by **asimon** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:06 pm

Alright here is the situation: I have a 3 year old GSP that i just got back from two months of training. I went out with him the morning of picking her up and he said that for the first 6 weeks of training she was doing really well, however the last two weeks of the training she had been blinking her birds. His suggestion was to give her a month break from birds, and that it was a result of the pressure he had been put on her over the last two months. Other than a break what can i do for her? I should also note that once she was whoad on a bird and he launched the bird she was very excited about retrieving the pigeon. So she isnt afraid of the bird just doesnt want to point it right now. Any advice would be great! TIA!!!

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:14 pm

Work on your whoa in situations that do not involve birds. Give her some slack when around birds to make the "fun" again. When she is completely accepting of being whoa'ed in every kind of pressure situation not involving birds and she is crazy about her birds, then meld the two together again.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm

The dog could be blinking the set up and launcher since it is still excited about the flush and kill.. I would check that out 1st then form a plan.

Mo

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:34 pm

I would sure have a problem with paying a trainer, only to get the dog back with not only lacking results but also a problem that was admittedly caused by the trainer. IMO, the trainer should take responsibility for fixing the problem for no extra charge or working with you and the dog until the problem is resolved. Depending on the dog and the amount of pressure it was exposed to, this could be hard to fix and could affect the dog's style for life. I am only talking potential here. Without seeing the dog it is hard to say. It could be a fairly easy fix but it should still be the trainer's responsibility if he has been paid.

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:28 pm

asimon wrote:Alright here is the situation: I have a 3 year old GSP that i just got back from two months of training. I went out with him the morning of picking her up and he said that for the first 6 weeks of training she was doing really well, however the last two weeks of the training she had been blinking her birds. His suggestion was to give her a month break from birds, and that it was a result of the pressure he had been put on her over the last two months. Other than a break what can i do for her? I should also note that once she was whoad on a bird and he launched the bird she was very excited about retrieving the pigeon. So she isnt afraid of the bird just doesnt want to point it right now. Any advice would be great! TIA!!!

You've been given excellent advice from several. Very honest of the trainer to to take responsibility for the blinking but..................... As someone said, "Lighten up ad make it fun for a while."

Never dawned on me to consider what Maurice said but I think he's right on.

asimon · Post by **asimon** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:54 pm

He also said that she might just be getting sick of pigeons and to use quail if i can get access to a few? He compared training on pigeons for 8 weeks to playing basketball by yourself every morning. Could that be another reason? Im sure switching it up would help. What you all think?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 pm

Is it possible that she has had so many of her pointed and flushed pigeons shot for her to retrieve that she now thinks she can just miss out the bit where she points the bird first ?

Bill T.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:16 pm

I'm thinking she might have got too close to the launcher. If you can try some lock wings or quail you should find out. Of course we don't know how many birds have been from a launcher.
what does she do just run by, pretend they aren't there, appear to be afraid or bust the bird......................Cj

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:18 pm

it's not a matter of being sick of pigeon's. Dog's go soft on pigeons or start blinking them because pigeons were used as a training bird and the dog was stopped on them and held with and or fooled with on the pigeon and the pigeon became a training bird. Eliminate the pigeon and substitute a quail, chukar or what ever you'd like and the result will be the same. I'm not sure how to get back from that other than just changing the bird, might be the only way. Now and then i've heard of this happening and found out the dog was actually gun shy. Get's to the bird and anticipate's the gun going off and leave's the bird. You might check her out for that.[quote="Maurice"]The dog could be blinking the set up and launcher since it is still excited about the flush and kill.. I would check that out 1st then form a plan.

That could be the dog is shy of the launcher, but if the bird itself doesn't bother the dog and the dog hasn't been hit by the launcher, I'd still look at the gunshy side and sick of training bird side. if the dog get's tired of the set up, it's not real enough. To much fooling with the dog to get it just right before launching.

mask · Post by **mask** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:55 pm

First off I would not pay a trainer for sending me home with a defective dog. As stated you might want to use something other than a pigeon. I would not use a launcher for a while, I would use a check cord and a helper to put the bird in the air and I would shoot every time the bird flushes and let the dog get the bird. To much pressure does funny things to different dogs. The three best trainers I know do not usually give you a time frame, they usually say they will return the dog when the dog is trained to your needs.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:11 pm

These are all good posts and advise but I still believe there is a problem with paying a trainer only to get a dog back that comes back with a problem that was not there before the trainer put him through his program and I can only assume that nothing was accomplished. I would appreciate the trainer admitting he caused the problem but the problem should be resolved or he shouldn't be paid IMO. Now I know this has nothing to do with your question so if you are going to let the trainer off the hook and do it yourself (with what little we know), I would suggest stopping with the launchers altogether and go with planted birds whether it be pigeons or game birds. Launchers are great tools but I think they may be part of the problem in this case. JMO.

Charlie

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:23 pm

asimon wrote: the last two weeks of the training she had been blinking her birds. His suggestion was to give her a month break from birds, and that it was a result of the pressure he had been put on her over the last two months. Other than a break what can i do for her? I should also note that once she was whoad on a bird and he launched the bird she was very excited about retrieving the pigeon. just doesnt want to point it right now. Any advice would be great! TIA!!!

Sounds like 'Real game' training is required?....rather than 'yard stuff'?...Difficult unless you have the game ?..Simulation just don't cut it with some ?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:29 pm

polmaise wrote:
asimon wrote: the last two weeks of the training she had been blinking her birds. His suggestion was to give her a month break from birds, and that it was a result of the pressure he had been put on her over the last two months. Other than a break what can i do for her? I should also note that once she was whoad on a bird and he launched the bird she was very excited about retrieving the pigeon. just doesnt want to point it right now. Any advice would be great! TIA!!!
Sounds like 'Real game' training is required?....rather than 'yard stuff'?...Difficult unless you have the game ?..Simulation just don't cut it with some ?

Good point.

Charlie

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:24 pm

As Mo said, it could be situational, but there is a multitude of other possibilities as well.

Before moving forward you should analyze the problem carefully. And form a plan (( as Mo has already suggested). If you just randomly go out and to " see what happens" with game birds, you have a good chance of ending up non-hunting buddy.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:43 am

Here's what I think about this:

First off, I would get the dog back and spend a good solid two weeks just having fun with the dog...No pressure, no real training other than here and kennel and such. I would want the dog to be happy to be home and happy to be with me. DO NOT BE IN A HURRY. You have all spring and all summer.

After two solid weeks, or even more, if necessary, I would start investigating just what the heck is going on. I would start very carefully, in order to make sure the dog does not go into an "Oh Brother here we go with this stuff AGAIN"... mode.

I might start with a remote launcher and a pigeon just being launched without the dog scenting, a sort of stop to flush drill. Watch carefully and see what the dog does. Pay close attention to the dog's body language.

You may find that the dog shows no signs of the blinking behavior, but be warned... IT IS STILL THERE in the back of the dog's mind. You need to keep it back there by having positive encounters and positive experiences. You do not want to become the trainer that caused the dog to blink.

Remember...you are on the DOG'S schedule...the DOG"S timeframe. You have all spring and all summer, and most of the fall too.

RayG

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:06 am

Pretty much what Ray advised...some R&R first, then go lightly back into training to figure things out. First, a talk with the trainer to see if he has discerned where the wheels came off. You can use that info to your advantage later. Then some pigeon work but WITHOUT launchers, just tossed and/or planted birds. That way you know if it's the pigeon he's blinking. If it is, try another species. If he's good with pigeons, try using a launcher and see what happens.

One thing about handling during the very start of this training, set the birds out, turn him loose, and just watch. Don't try leading him into birds, don't cc him, don't talk. And if you notice that he's blinked, don't encourage him to come back around to scent or otherwise try to get him on the bird. You have to know what you're working with before you can make a plan.

Good luck with your dog, chances are that with patience you can turn him around.

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:43 am

1)How far in training did this trainer take the dog?
2) whom taught whoa , when and how is it reinforced?
3) did you hunt this dog prior to training? Did u flush his birds?
4) when the dog was pointing at the trainers and he said whoa, did the dog's ears and tail change position?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:45 am

Nobody thinks you should follow the trainers advice? Was the trainer hoping for you to give the dog 2 months off then bring it back or is the trainer done? Did the trainer recommend the dog come home at this point, or were you anxious to get the dog back and rushing them?

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:02 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Nobody thinks you should follow the trainers advice? Was the trainer hoping for you to give the dog 2 months off then bring it back or is the trainer done? Did the trainer recommend the dog come home at this point, or were you anxious to get the dog back and rushing them?

Why should he listen to the trainer that couldn't read the dog well enough to stop before it started blinking birds? It is pretty obvious that too much pressure was put on a dog not ready and the trainer couldn't read the dog well enough to tell that. No way that is who I would want finishing the dog or do any further training for that matter. Hopefully the poster finds a new pro if they will need future help with training.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:25 pm

asimon wrote:Alright here is the situation: I have a 3 year old GSP that i just got back from two months of training. I went out with him the morning of picking her up and he said that for the first 6 weeks of training she was doing really well, however the last two weeks of the training she had been blinking her birds. His suggestion was to give her a month break from birds, and that it was a result of the pressure he had been put on her over the last two months. Other than a break what can i do for her? I should also note that once she was whoad on a bird and he launched the bird she was very excited about retrieving the pigeon. So she isnt afraid of the bird just doesnt want to point it right now. Any advice would be great! TIA!!!

Have you decided what course of action to take?

EvanG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:57 pm

asimon wrote:Alright here is the situation: I have a 3 year old GSP that i just got back from two months of training.

What training or level of training did the dog do or not do during the other 2 years and 10 months ?

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 pm

polmaise wrote:
asimon wrote:Alright here is the situation: I have a 3 year old GSP that i just got back from two months of training.
What training or level of training did the dog do or not do during the other 2 years and 10 months ?

Great question.

Dogs will easily resort back to pre pro training learned behavior if the owner doesn't reinforce the new.
Nate

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:36 pm

My previous comments were pretty much in agreement with what Millerclemson said.

I also think the dog may be blinking the launcher and not the bird. When I first began reading this thread, my first thought was too much pressure by the trainer. However, it could be caused from too much launcher work and/or too many reps per session, which could also be interpreted as pressure. I agree with the break in training and when resumed, as I said earlier, I would stop the launcher work and let him work a field with birds in a more natural setting, using no pressure or commands for a while. Without more info or seeing what is going on, this is all just speculation.

Charlie

asimon · Post by **asimon** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:07 pm

Thanks for all the advice, as far as the launchers go. There were no launchers involved when he simulated everything for me, carded pigeons and flight feathers pulled. I got some pigeons and am going to take her out tonight to see how she does, i will do my best to describe what she does. Thanks again for all the advice.

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