Retrieve to Hand

Ez4
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Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:09 am

How have you all had success in transitioning the retrieve to hand? Are there a couple of steps that you have used to enforce it?

The dog's desire to retrieve is strong and will always return within a couple feet of me, but I can't seem to get her to willing or calmly retrieve to hand consistently. She often wants to run around and play with the dummy or bumper that I have thrown instead of coming directly back. Sometimes when I do reach for it she will take off with it to play chase, or what bothers me the most is drop it.

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Post by birddog1968 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:26 am

Force fetch is my preferred method and it has benefits beyond...... One thing never to get started doing with a young pup, is grabbing or reaching for item being retrieved. Praise them heal them then take the object. That said FF is the way to go when pup is old and bold enough.
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by EvanG » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:38 am

Ez4 wrote:How have you all had success in transitioning the retrieve to hand? Are there a couple of steps that you have used to enforce it?

The dog's desire to retrieve is strong and will always return within a couple feet of me, but I can't seem to get her to willing or calmly retrieve to hand consistently. She often wants to run around and play with the dummy or bumper that I have thrown instead of coming directly back. Sometimes when I do reach for it she will take off with it to play chase, or what bothers me the most is drop it.
The answer is as usual, "It depends". How old is the dog? What training have you done so far? What are your performance goals for the dog?

I'm on board with force fetch, but not until the dog is "old and bold enough", as birddog1968 said. But FF is about far more than simple delivery to hand. If you want to know more we can get into that. But I'll wait for answers to my questions.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:19 pm

The dog is around 9 months, large female Chessie. Obedience is pretty solid and we work basic commands often. So far I am proud of her ability to STAY in particular when throwing dummies and having her fetch when sent by both word or hand signal. I had her following hand signals to move left/right for a blind fetch, but it has softened recently and I'm not sure why. General obedience is good, but I doubt she will be steady with the excitement of live birds.

Performance wise I want a solid retriever that is steady and can flush in the field, that is also well mannered in a blind. With the drought here in CA I did mostly quail hunting last season, but went out for duck a couple times so she does have some actual hunting exposure already, flushed a couple birds close by and even located several but the retrieve return was soft. I don't need a robot, but steadiness and delivery to hand would be ideal.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by DonF » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:33 pm

Sounded like a young dog. You can guarantee she come's back every time by working her on a check cord and do short retrieve's. Don't take the buck away, learn to have her give it to you, pretty simple.
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by oilcan » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:24 pm

"old and bold enough"

EvanG I have heard this said many times being new to this could you expand especially the bold part.
Thanks

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by EvanG » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:34 pm

oilcan wrote:"old and bold enough"

EvanG I have heard this said many times being new to this could you expand especially the bold part.
Thanks
I think the "bold" aspect isn't completely accurate. 'Old' is a matter of chronology. 'Bold' is more a matter of maturity. I use very little actual pressure during FF, unlike trainers of the past, who used to resort to very tough measures. With that in mind, "bold" doesn't really fit.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Meller » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:39 pm

I would try to perfect the recall, the dog needs to come to you without question!

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:39 am

This is a fairly standard way of getting a retrieve to hand in Britain. The puppy is encouraged to come right into your chest and the trainer praises the pup while it still holds the dummy. All we do is develop the retrieve from there.

http://youtu.be/7vuQlmamm-k

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by DonF » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:01 am

Is that you Bill? I've seen guy's do than over here. Hard to believe you can get a dog going that well without forcing it! Nice pup! Cocker?
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:18 am

DonF wrote: Hard to believe you can get a dog going that well without forcing it!
Are you actually serious ?

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:46 am

Quite a few questions in there Don. :D Yes, that is a cocker pup and it is behaving as we would expect a well bred pup to behave without any need for force fetch or for check-cords or for treats.

No it isn't me in the little video .... I'm much better looking and twice as suave and sophisticated ! :lol: :lol:
This is me...... O.K. I maybe lied a little bit in the previous sentence !

Image

The man in the video is "James" of Jarailstar Gundogs . He breeds and trials labs , cockers and springers. The "method" he is using is pretty commonplace here. I do much the same myself but I can't get up from the ground too easily now so I sit on my doorstep or on a handy boulder or log. Not trying to be "funny" but most early training here is based on breeding and training pups that want above all else to do the job and to "please." By doing that we get by without much in the way of training aides or "programmes." ..... The rest of it is down to the trainer..... as always ! That trainers "style" is good. Look at the focus the pup is giving him using no training aide other than a dummy.

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Post by birddog1968 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:53 am

Its the same here with well bred dogs....key word being "well bred" ....there is tho a lot of not so well bred here. Even pointers not bred for retrieve in ages will go and come like that if encouraged young.

12 weeks
Image

Image
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by EvanG » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:55 am

Trekmoor wrote:Quite a few questions in there Don. :D Yes, that is a cocker pup and it is behaving as we would expect a well bred pup to behave without any need for force fetch or for check-cords or for treats.

No it isn't me in the little video .... I'm much better looking and twice as suave and sophisticated ! :lol: :lol:

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And certainly more humble! :D

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:06 am

:oops: :lol:

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:33 am

Trekmoor wrote:This is a fairly standard way of getting a retrieve to hand in Britain. The puppy is encouraged to come right into your chest and the trainer praises the pup while it still holds the dummy. All we do is develop the retrieve from there.

http://youtu.be/7vuQlmamm-k

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Thanks Bill, this helped. I spent some time doing this the past day during fetch and it seemed to make an immediate difference. I am going to keep up with it a little bit every day. I think I was expecting too much too early.

What is a logical next step after I'm getting the response I want here? I think I am going to hold off on force fetch a couple months.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:38 pm

Ez4 wrote:
What is a logical next step after I'm getting the response I want here? I think I am going to hold off on force fetch a couple months.
I think it would a really good idea to confirm basic conditioning before you embark on anything formal .
Yes there are programs that guide you towards 'Their'' format with puppy, but having a load of fun 'shaping' behaviour for the formal stuff is the Best bit :wink:

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Susie » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:55 pm

Ez4 wrote:The dog is around 9 months, large female Chessie.
Your in northern CA? Just curious who got your CBR from?

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by EvanG » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:18 pm

Susie wrote:
Ez4 wrote:The dog is around 9 months, large female Chessie.
Your in northern CA? Just curious who got your CBR from?
Are you taking your Chessie through formal Basics? If so, where are you in the process?

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:53 pm

Susie wrote:Your in northern CA? Just curious who got your CBR from?
I got her from Southwind Chesapeakes in Chico.

Your posted picture looks a lot like one of the dog they had on their site. Coincidence?
Last edited by Ez4 on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:00 pm

EvanG wrote:Are you taking your Chessie through formal Basics? If so, where are you in the process?
I don't have a very formal process. I could absolutely be a bit more organized. I have 3 books (listed in another post) that I have been using. We have had many dogs so I am familiar with basic obedience and I work her basic commands regularly, so I can generally skip those sections from the books i'm using. Fetch is great and fun, but I make sure to step it up when busting out the check cord, whistle, dummies and bumpers. Unfortunately, most are dry retrieves as it's hard for me to get to big water all the time, but I take her to the local creek on ocation where she can at least get wet even though its not deep enough to swim.

Maybe some suggested exercises would help, after trying them I can report back with the relative success to help you all find out what level we're at.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:20 pm

Ez4 wrote:but I can't seem to get her to willing or calmly retrieve to hand consistently. She often wants to run around and play with the dummy or bumper that I have thrown instead of coming directly back. Sometimes when I do reach for it she will take off with it to play chase, or what bothers me the most is drop it.
I would say you are at this level here?
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by gundogguy » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:36 pm

Ez4 wrote:How have you all had success in transitioning the retrieve to hand? Are there a couple of steps that you have used to enforce it?

The dog's desire to retrieve is strong and will always return within a couple feet of me, but I can't seem to get her to willing or calmly retrieve to hand consistently. She often wants to run around and play with the dummy or bumper that I have thrown instead of coming directly back. Sometimes when I do reach for it she will take off with it to play chase, or what bothers me the most is drop it.
Interesting thread Ez4, You have the ear of some very finest retriever trainers, and a couple with international acclaim.
Now I realize that this thread just began on Wed the 19th and is only 3 days old, but this problem is not rocket science quite honestly the parading that you have opined about should be fixed or on its way to being fixed. Your dog should now be making an honest attempt at getting to you with said item.
So let us know if the situation is any better and that you and your dog are on a healthy learning curve. In the development of making a dog, this problem needs to addressed so that you can get on with the really fun and important stuff a dog must learn. Oh raise your expectations, you are not demanding enough out of your dog, especially if you want a steady to wing and shot dog.
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:55 pm

polmaise wrote:
Ez4 wrote:
What is a logical next step after I'm getting the response I want here? I think I am going to hold off on force fetch a couple months.
I think it would a really good idea to confirm basic conditioning before you embark on anything formal .
Yes there are programs that guide you towards 'Their'' format with puppy, but having a load of fun 'shaping' behaviour for the formal stuff is the Best bit :wink:
I completely agree with Robert (Polmaise) on this subject. I'd want to have the pup coming right into me to offer me the dummy before I even thought about F.F.ing the pup .... and then I probably would not train F.F. anyway as I don't compete in U.S. trials where an F.F.'d dog does seem to be essential.

I've had labs, spaniels, brittanies, a vizsla and a few GSP's all doing both marked and blind retrieves from rivers, lochs, ponds and the sea on ducks and geese and pheasants and none of those dogs were F.F.'d . On the other hand I never send my dogs 200 yards into or over water for retrieves and don't think I'd have much success if I tried to.

If you need F.F. then train it by all means but not all dogs need it and not all hunters either. It is definitely possible to train the basic "fun" type of retrieve to a pretty high standard. High enough to win the British style of retriever, spaniel and HPR Championships.
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:18 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I'd want to have the pup coming right into me to offer me the dummy before I even thought about F.F.ing the pup
I agree my husband teachs every aspect of the ff before he over lays the ear pinch and the e-collar. I asked why ff if the dog does all . Response, ff is a American thing . If the dog is not ff'd in many eyes the dog is not complete. My husband also stated that he thinks because so many field trials focus on point, style and run . The retrieve is no more than a formality when it is a FT with retrieve. The natural ability to retrieve and retrieve well has been bred out of some dogs, maybe many dogs.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ez4 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:24 pm

I appreciate the video Trekmoor. Replicating it has made a substantial difference in just a few sessions. I'm not having any more drops at my feet.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:49 pm

Don't agree much with your husband ms cage....sorry.

A dog isn't FFd because it won't retrieve most times. A lot of times its to clean up delivery ( which is handler caused a lot of times) it also puts a dog in a different frame of mind making them more business like in their work ethic. It also lays important ground work for later blind retrieve work and handling to blinds.

Trial pointers not bred for retrieve for 100 years retrieve very well if introduced and started young. So if its been bred out of retrievers in such a short time that would seem astonishing to me....

Most times its the owner/handler that handicaps a young dog....
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:16 pm

birddog1968 wrote:It also lays important ground work for later blind retrieve work and handling to blinds.
Dogs were being taught blinds long before ff was even thought of.
Lets go back to the days of folks like Charles Morgan and a few others . the great of early retrievers trials. Those folks didn't ff they way we do today . A force hold. IMO a dog needs cooperation , trainability and desire. Today we can take uncooperative dogs ( jerks ) and turn them into good handling dog with and juice vs. looking for the cooperation, brains desire mind set. JMO
birddog1968 wrote: A lot of times its to clean up delivery ( which is handler caused a lot of times)
I'll agree with you on this, some handler trainers don't know how to bring the best out of a dog naturally.
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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:20 pm

Dogs were not being handled to blinds like today's FC'S and MH'S......

Labs in the US have only been popular since the turn of the last century.....not that long ago really.
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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:32 pm

Maybe our European counterparts here could help us understand how their trials work and how breeding stock is chosen? Are trials in england used to test or choose breeding stock? Any good videos of what's required over there to be considered as breeding stock?

What I'm wondering are the retrieves as technically as advanced as the sequences found in american trials and master tests? Double, triple blinds with poison birds and out to 3 or 400 yards plus?
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:36 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Labs in the US have only been popular since the turn of the last century.....not that long ago really.
Chessies were Americas first retriever trial dogs.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:41 pm

I'm from the land of chessies, they haven't been around a real long time either....to say retrieves been bred out is an exaggeration. Again all the pointers I have from AF trial lines have all retrieved as young pups and never choosen for it, and I'm to believe its been bred out of retrievers in nearly the same amount of time? I wonder what those early trials you speak of looked like? Anything like today, 400 yrd blinds with dogs looking like they are shot from canon? I don't know .....

I'll be interested to hear what Evan has to say....
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:50 pm

birddog1968 wrote:to say retrieves been bred out is an exaggeration
Sure are pointers setters of various breds that retrieve well . there are also many who could care less about retrieving. The topic is retrieve to hand . the yearlier you start a dog on retrieve to hand and quick return the less you have to cleanup. The video show sgreat puppy intro. I didn't the retrieve was bred out of retrievers. I said the retrieve was bred out some individuals of various pointing breeds.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:59 pm

The ones who could care less most likely weren't nurtured when very young like the excellent video you refer to....that's basically what I've done with all my dogs retrievers and pointers for the last 30 years....one of the few good things I learned from an uncle who ruined more dogs than anyone lol.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it ms cage, just don't agree wholeheartedly..... Let's see what the others think.
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:01 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:to say retrieves been bred out is an exaggeration
Sure are pointers setters of various breds that retrieve well . there are also many who could care less about retrieving. The topic is retrieve to hand . the yearlier you start a dog on retrieve to hand and quick return the less you have to cleanup. The video show sgreat puppy intro. I didn't the retrieve was bred out of retrievers. I said the retrieve was bred out some individuals of various pointing breeds.
There are retrievers who won't retrieve - does that mean it was bred out of them?

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:16 pm

slistoe wrote:There are retrievers who won't retrieve - does that mean it was bred out of them?
IMO yes. dogs that have NO desire to retrieve , pick up game has the retrieve bred out or the genetics that should be passed on to him by parents . Before we go on most know the dogs nature is to chase the game, mouth the game, the return is cooperation. JMO and I'm sticking to it... :wink: :wink:

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:19 pm

When shopping for my pointer pup, I did find several breeders who couldn't say whether or not any pups in the litter retrieved, because it just wasn't a priority. On talking a bit further, it became clear they all had some fair degree of natural retrieve. That doesn't mean this extends to all AF pointers, or that pointers excel as retrievers.

I ended up with a Guard Rail grandson with some Miller and some Elhew, etc. He had a natural retrieve but for the delivery to hand part, and he still likes to parade anything in his mouth unless you tell him to drop. A good research project for some grad student somewhere would be quantifying what constitutes a "natural" retrieve and then rating this trait by breed. I know greyhounds and lurchers can at least be taught to have good retrieves, so it may be something linked to basic prey drive? But I'd defer to others on that, just an inexperienced, enthusiastic dog owner rambling right now. :D

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:21 pm

Technically you originally said, your husband said " the ability to retrieve AND retrieve well HAS been bred out of some dogs, maybe many dogs"
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:53 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
slistoe wrote:There are retrievers who won't retrieve - does that mean it was bred out of them?
IMO yes. dogs that have NO desire to retrieve , pick up game has the retrieve bred out or the genetics that should be passed on to him by parents . Before we go on most know the dogs nature is to chase the game, mouth the game, the return is cooperation. JMO and I'm sticking to it... :wink: :wink:
Even if the parents and litter mates show an extreme desire to retrieve?

What about pointing dogs that show absolutely no interest or desire to play "fetch" despite all the introduction protocols but have never let a game bird go unrecovered?

I believe that this whole "retrieve is being bred out" thing gets far more press than is warranted. And I am sticking to it ..... :wink: :wink:

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:32 pm

slistoe wrote:Even if the parents and litter mates show an extreme desire to retrieve?
Even if the dogs parents and litter mates are extreme retrievers. If a dog has to be ff'd to get dog to retrieve that individual is lacking in those genetics. IMO no different then a pointer who has to be check corded to get them to point. Or the dog who has to be check corded to back they are lacking in that certain gentic make up. Again just my opinion. Good night !!! :D :D

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:14 pm

So now point is gone because someone trains with a checkcord? And retrieve is gone because some decide to FF ? More I don't agree with. Use of a training tool does not indicate lack of a trait.
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Ms. Cage
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:13 am

birddog1968 wrote:So now point is gone because someone trains with a checkcord? And retrieve is gone because some decide to FF ? More I don't agree with. Use of a training tool does not indicate lack of a trait.
Look your taking this out of content. I want a dog to show there natural ability to point before we use a check cord. If I have to check cord dog into point it's not what I want to see. The check cord will be used in time. much like I want a dog to show good natural retrieve before FF. I'm not saying my way is right your way is wrong. They are opinions that's it

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Re:

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:43 am

birddog1968 wrote:Maybe our European counterparts here could help us understand how their trials work and how breeding stock is chosen? Are trials in england used to test or choose breeding stock? Any good videos of what's required over there to be considered as breeding stock?

What I'm wondering are the retrieves as technically as advanced as the sequences found in american trials and master tests? Double, triple blinds with poison birds and out to 3 or 400 yards plus?
Maybe I should try to clear this up a bit.

In British trials retrieves are not as advanced as the sequences in American trials but the retrieves could be more difficult in other ways. Multiple retrieves don't happen in our retriever trials but that does not mean the dogs don't have to mark down multiple retrieves. During trials in which drives are held there could be a dozen birds down and those birds could be anywhere inside a 360 degrees circle of the handler and dog.

If the drive was held with the handlers standing in a root field , which is common, then both the dog and the handler must try to mark down and remember the position of the fallen birds for as much as ten minutes prior to being required by the judges to retrieve any of them. You need eyes in the back of your head as well as the front ! Should a dog retrieve a bird other than the one it was sent for it is likely to be eliminated. Should a dog need a lot of handling to move it away from an undesignated bird and back onto the bird selected by the judges ,it will be downmarked ,probably heavily.

Personally, I have never seen a dog required to make a 400 yards retrieve in a British trial and the furthest blind I was ever sent for was about 200-250 yards away over what I consider to be easy ground for handling. I had to send my lab bitch over about 150 yards of grass field, through a hedge and then out about another 100 yards to pick the bird on a stubble field. It was far from being a particularly difficult retrieve, it was just the longest blind I was ever asked to fetch.

Water retrieves are not nearly so prominent in our retriever trials and at some trial grounds there is no water at all. Nevertheless , should a bird fall into or over water during a trial the dog will be expected to swim for it with considerable enthusiasm.
HPR trials always include a water "test" but this is done using cold game. Retriever and spaniel trials just "take it as it comes" some dogs might have to retrieve from water while the other dogs do not since many of our trials are held in the form of a "walk up" and water may be present for some dogs but not for others.

I think our trials are considerably more natural than those in America as the same retrieve never happens twice. Each dog brought under the judges during our trials is presented with a different set of circumstances to deal with. The retrieves distance will be different and the terrain and the cover and the game species to be retrieved could all be different ..... and often are. A dog sent for a blind retrieve in one of our trials might find a partridge, a grouse, a pheasant, a woodcock, a pigeon , a duck , a snipe, a rabbit or a hare. The dog will be eliminated if it fails to retrieve, without "fumbling," any of Britain's game species.

We train in the way we do because doing so makes dogs keen to reach the fall area prepared to retrieve any kind of game they might find there.

As I have said before on this forum, if I lived in America I would do as the Romans do in order to try to win trials. I'd train F.F. and use an e-collar .....but I wouldn't do either of those two things if "all" I wanted was a good dog to shoot over, I wouldn't need to.

Our tests are also easier than yours... I think ? But test winners are not awarded any kind of K.C. recognition here. Test wins are never added to a dogs pedigree because in tests game is not used, dummies are and dummies do not turn into runners or deliberately try to hide among tree roots etc. and , of course, dummies will not tell you if a dog can remain steady when game is falling and nor can they tell you if a dog is soft mouthed.

In our tests the retrieves are usually kept as nearly as possible ,the same for every dog because tests are held on the same bit of land.

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Re: Re:

Post by crackerd » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:53 am

Trekmoor wrote: As I have said before on this forum, if I lived in America I would do as the Romans do in order to try to win trials. I'd train F.F. and use an e-collar .....but I wouldn't do either of those two things if "all" I wanted was a good dog to shoot over, I wouldn't need to.
Bill, if you lived in America and all you wanted was a dog to shoot over, over here, you'd be shooting over a dog over water. (To help your "memory" with that equation, think of the old palindrome: A man, a plan, a canal, Panama).

And you ain't getting a handling dog in the water worth its salt (or its swim) without force fetch and most likely not by shunning the e-collar either. That's not "in order to win trials," either, it's in order to pick up your ducks that have fallen in the gloaming, no matter what order they've fallen in.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:36 am

At dawn and in the evening or even in the dark is the most common way of shooting ducks around ponds or when wildfowling on the sea shore here M.G. . I think the main difference is that we don't usually send our dogs for really long distance swims whether the bird is a marked or a blind retrieve.
I don't think I have ever seen or heard of a dog being sent for a retrieve in water at more than 200 yards absolute maximum. Personally, I wouldn't even send my dogs that far, I'd rather lose the duck.

The longest water retrieve I can remember seeing was while picking up at an estate bordering the sea shore. A lightly hit pheasant flew on and out to sea for a very long way. The dog , a lab, was sent for the bird as a blind retrieve and it got the bird. As it swam back to shore 2 seals appeared right beside it and sort of porpoised alongside the dog for most of the way back in . We were worried the seals might attack the dog but they didn't harm it in any way . It was one of the best and most interesting retrieves I have ever seen.

The dog that did it is long dead and his owner is now a very old man but I'd bet he is still bragging about that retrieve.... I would be too !

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Re: Re:

Post by DonF » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:21 am

crackerd wrote:
Trekmoor wrote: As I have said before on this forum, if I lived in America I would do as the Romans do in order to try to win trials. I'd train F.F. and use an e-collar .....but I wouldn't do either of those two things if "all" I wanted was a good dog to shoot over, I wouldn't need to.
Bill, if you lived in America and all you wanted was a dog to shoot over, over here, you'd be shooting over a dog over water. (To help your "memory" with that equation, think of the old palindrome: A man, a plan, a canal, Panama).

And you ain't getting a handling dog in the water worth its salt (or its swim) without force fetch and most likely not by shunning the e-collar either. That's not "in order to win trials," either, it's in order to pick up your ducks that have fallen in the gloaming, no matter what order they've fallen in.

MG
I guess I don't get this. You can't get a handling dog in the water worth it's salt without FF? Your're kidding right? Either that or i just don't get it.

My Squirt and Bodie were not retriever's from the start. Worked a lot on them and Squirt does well now but Bodie is still a duffer. I've had a number of pointer's and GSP's and never had a dog a bad as these before. The strange thing is Only Bodie will go into water to retrieve a down bird and he take's blinds to down birds really well but, once the bird is where i can get it he dump's it! He's a prime candidate for FF but I just don't have it in me anymore.
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Post by birddog1968 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:33 am

If you were to hunt the marshes and mud of the Delmarva (Chesapeake and Delaware bays) not to mention the wind and the waves for divers and seaducks, you would better understand. While u can hunt with an untrained retriever a finished high drive long legged retriever is invaluable. Especially in the many blinds with 3 to 5 or more guns.

Show dogs need not apply. :)
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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:25 pm

http://lumi-laddie-test-series.blogspot ... -stud.html Fun and, imo, well-written blog by someone who has had success without FF or an e-collar. He's also pretty frank about some of the challenges he's faces with this approach. I am not asserting at all that this is a better or easier, etc. approach, it is just interesting to see different ways to skin a cat. Likewise, though his dog clearly has good genetics, where it falls on the drive/ hard-headed spectrum I have no idea.

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Re: Retrieve to Hand

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:47 pm

IMO to many have forgotten conventional methods of yester year and relie on e-collar methods of today. i use the e methods as much as anybody but have not forgot the root methods.
Last edited by Ms. Cage on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:03 pm

We don't drive model T's anymore either.... For a reason.
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