What's The Point !?

[polmaise]

If 'we' all agree that a Pointing dog (bird dog) requires game to teach it to 'Point' ?
Why do other breeds such as a Spaniel 'Chase' (without training) on flush or stop?
The first statement should hold water surely,no matter the breed ?,please don't say ''Breeding'' or ''genes'' !, otherwise the game would not be required.
The question in the second line contradicts the fact?..Does it?
If it was 'genetic traits' through the ages of selective breeding ,then Why do some 'Pointing dogs' (bird dogs) Still require Game to teach them to point?...Or ,even some require teaching to point with 'Whoa's' and 'Bird on a string' and all manner of training techniques?
If the 'Flushing dog' has been selected through years of 'breeding' by way of success at competition showing this 'prowess' , why after hundreds of years do they not ''Naturally'' flush? , like the 'Pointing Dog' , (naturally) Points ?......
Just a discussion I was having with a 'Dog man' !?
What's your thoughts?

[ezzy333]

I am not one of those that think a pointing pup has to have birds introduced as a puppy to be a good dog. I had a dog I took in a few years back that was a city house pet and was being shown. Nice dog that always placed second so the people decided to move him and get another. # years old and never been ib the field or saw a bird. Took three trips to the field to convince my kids he was the dog they wanted to hunt over and they weren't too far from right. Just one example of many I have seen. What I do think is the dog learns how to handle birds through experience but I have seen no ill effect from starting late except they will be a little older by the time they have as much experience as the pup that started earlier. But then again I have found the little older ones many times learn quicker so you may end up in the same place. There are just way to many variables to put all dogs in the same box and know how they are going to come out.

Ezzy

[Nutmeg247]

As far as pointing, isn't it something that the more exaggerated the natural point gets, the more you risk getting other less-desirable traits along with the very strong natural point? So, it may be a question of balance of desired traits?

[tjsnipehunter]

I'm confused I guess. Are you saying that pointers are taught to point? That it is not instinctual?
If someone needs to whoa a dog to get it to point it ain't a pointer to me. Used the way it should be 'whoa' is for after the dog has pointed and is used to stop the dog from chasing after the flush.

The day after I brought home my GWP pup he was pointing. It was his toys tossed across the room but he was pointing them. After a month sometimes it is still hard to play fetch in the house because he will go into point mode. I never did a wing on a string and he hadn't seen a bird at that time. The point is an instinctual reaction to not being able to catch something. So I suppose it is taught since it takes a couple misses to develop. How and when to use it is where the training comes in. At least IMHO.

The second time he saw a pigeon on the ground he pointed it. He had chased and flushed the first time so I guess he's a fast 'learner' or I'm the worlds best pointer trainer. It probably makes no difference his parents have lots of point in them. If he was a springer he would still be chasing them into the air because that is what they are bred to do. I did nothing and said nothing to my pup so if it isn't bred into them I don't know where it comes from.

I don't really agree that flushers are just natural and take no birds. It takes birds no matter the age of the dog to build desire to point or flush.

Tim

[cjhills]

I might be missing something but it seems like pretty much all dogs naturally flush and a lot of most pointing dogs naturally point. I guess I just don't get the question....................Cj

[dan v]

I might be missing something but it seems like pretty much all dogs naturally flush and a lot of most pointing dogs naturally point. I guess I just don't get the question....................Cj

All canines chase their game at some point...or they'd starve.

[Trekmoor]

I think a point is a selectively bred for extension of the thing many predators do when they encounter bird or animal scent at fairly close range. Predators focus on the place the scent (or sound) is emanating from and then, having pin-pointed the bird or small animal, they either stalk in closer to the prey creature or pounce on it if they are already in pouncing range.

We breed from the dogs that show a natural inclination towards a longer "focus and pinpoint" period of time. Then we add a little bit of training to this and Hey Presto ....we have a pointer.

With spaniels we do the opposite , we breed from the dogs that show a lesser inclination to an extended "focus and pinpoint" period of time. Then we encourage a fast, hard flush.

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

Just as a spaniel or retriever retrieves with no training it's a natural attribute so pointing dogs point with no formal training. Where the birds come in to play is to finish the dog. You can't have a finished dog without training on birds. Most specifically you'll never have a finished bird-dog without training on Wildbirds. So to me birds are only necessary for the finishing of a dog and for the full development of its natural instinct.

[SCT]

By being in the field as young dogs they get to know all the "bleep" birds and chase and chase. They slowly learn to get over that as their experience grows and quit chasing "bleep" and pointing game birds. I've seen 3 year old dogs that haven't been out as pups still have that puppy urge to chase and had to be forced to hold birds (game birds). Most (pointers) from good breeding will be holding birds before they turn one year old.