Bird Intro

[GSP923]

I have a now 6 month old GSP that I would like to get out onto some live feral pigeons that I have. Technically she hasn't been formally introduced to birds but she has played with a dead pheasant as a young pup and has seen the pigeons in a cage in my garage. The pigeons are no longer in my garage but at a buddies house in a coop I built next to a training field. She shows no signs of backing off the pigeons in a cage, they flapped their wings went nuts and she was trying like heck to get them out of the cage even going after them if their tail feathers stuck out. The dead pheasant as a pup she also went crazy for the same way couldn't get enough of it. My question is do I let her play with a live pigeon out in the open with its wings locked or take some flight feathers out and let her chase it around? or can I go to planting the birds and seeing if she can find them in the field? Not sure if I should build more desire for birds or if she has enough? By the way she is a very bold pup and not much has scared her at this point. Hasn't been introduced yet to gun fire either.

[mask]

I use card boarded pigeons and a check cord.

[Bluesky2012]

Hickox uses a lock wing and throws it to let a pup grab. Let it have fun with the bird regardless of if it brings it backlot you. Pretty sure same thing in PS/PF. That's what I did, then moved to planted birds. Worked well.

[DonF]

Sounds to me like the one that should be introducing birds is the pup! Just what is it you hope to gain by giving a very birdy pup a bird?

[Fun dog]

P/s lets the pup see and chase a free flying pigeon, but does not want them to catch the bird.

[ezzy333]

Hickox uses a lock wing and throws it to let a pup grab. Let it have fun with the bird regardless of if it brings it backlot you. Pretty sure same thing in PS/PF. That's what I did, then moved to planted birds. Worked well.

That's for introducing the pup to a bird. This pup has been introduced many times it sounds like to me and sure no real need to go any further at this stage.

Ezzy

[Tia]

My GSP is almost 6 months old and it sounds like your pup has the same attitude as my pup. I have been following PS/PF to the letter and have shot a pigeon over my pup. Doesn't sound like you have a bird drive problem. As far as intro to birds, she needs to learn she can't catch the bird. Using a checkcord, hold a bird in front of pup but don't let her get it, or let the wings flap then let the bird fly away. She should chase after it. Next bird let one of the wings flap but not hit her then let it fly away. A wing hitting the nose could scare the pup. Next step would be to tuck and shake and plant the bird. Again, using a checkcord so she can't catch the bird, let her find it making sure she doesn't catch it(at this point pup will probably just want to pounce on the bird instead of point but that's fine). Have someone come in and wake the bird so it flys away. Let pup chase once bird begins to fly away. Continue this process and the pup will start to understand she can't catch the bird and should start to go on point. It gets much more involved after this so I highly recommend getting the PS/PF video right away. Best $$$ I have spent. Bob

[RayGubernat]

GSP923 -

As others have said...your youngster knows what a bird is. Your youngster is excited and both ready, willing and aty six months old...able to go tear a bird to pieces.

Are you sure that is what you want?? Because if you let your dog catch a pigeon or two...that is quite possibly what you will get.

At six months old, I would want to instill in the young dog a firm idea that chasing a bird is a massive waste of time...fun...but a massive waste of tiem.

A bag of pigeons and a dog trailing a stiff checkcord...in a big, big field. Let the dog run and chase a pigeon that you throw. When it comes back...and it will... throw another for it to chase.

Three or four pigeons and put the dog up. Wait a couple or three days and do it again. In the meantime, work on getting the dog to stand in the yard. No birds...just obedience. There are tons of different ways to do that, so pick one and do that. Ask again in about three months. In the meantime, repeat, repeat and repeat making sure it is fun for both you AND the dog.

PATIENCE. HAVE FUN. YOUR DOG IS A PUPPY. Going slowly is one of the hardest things you will have to do, but it will pay HUGE dividends down the road.

Did I say...PATIENCE??

RayG

[GSP923]

Ok. Thanks I will take her out then with the pigeons and let her chase but not catch them. She is a very obedient young puppy have worked on Whoa a lot with her and she is pretty good at it(along with other commands). The reason I did ask is because I didn't want to have a dog thinking that it could catch birds and not point but I wanted to just double check. I am anxiously waiting our first NAVHDA training day but it keeps getting put off due to the long Wisconsin winter. Hopefully next weekend! I am sick of training the dog inside and in the deep snow!

[RoostersMom]

I would look at following a program. Like others have said above, the Perfect Start is a good one. I would make it a priority for your dog not to catch birds. I would also be wondering why you're doing "whoa" training on a baby of this age? Let her point and chase birds to her heart's content now, that builds drive. Whoa training might well wait until AFTER your first season with the dog. That's just my opinion, but you want to have her finding birds and learning to hunt now - not worried about "obedience" issues (which is what WHOA is right at this age).

[GSP923]

Never said I was doing any obedience while out in the field looking for birds.... She does do it in the house such as Whoaing or Staying until I release her to eat, go outside, get out of the car ect(not sure what's so bad about that, she does a great job at it). I am following training with Mo, Just wasn't sure I was past the bird intro phase and wanted some friendly advice here and yes the dog will have an easy first year and I will be working with NAVHDA to help me along. I may even see how she does in a Natural ability test next year.

[RayGubernat]

Never said I was doing any obedience while out in the field looking for birds.... She does do it in the house such as Whoaing or Staying until I release her to eat, go outside, get out of the car ect(not sure what's so bad about that, she does a great job at it). I am following training with Mo, Just wasn't sure I was past the bird intro phase and wanted some friendly advice here and yes the dog will have an easy first year and I will be working with NAVHDA to help me along. I may even see how she does in a Natural ability test next year.

Training with Mo is as good a "Program" as any I have read or seen and better than most. The absolute best part is that he is right here on these boards , so if you have a question...you can go right to the source.

I do some formal yardwork starting at 16 weeks or so. As long as there is play and training and play... well you get the idea. If the dog is having fun AND doing what you want it to do, That is a winning combination. I used to do yardwork twice a day, for five or ten minutes in the morning, After I cleaned up the poop and before I went to work, and then in the evening, after supper, sometimes before dark, sometimes after. Short sessions, keep the dog happy , keep the dog wanting more, ALWAYS quit on a good note and before long... you will have a real live dog on your hands.

FWIW, if you do yardwork drills daily, for the next few months and do field work, including chasing pigeons, you WILL start to see it coming together. The dog will chase, but less and less and then start to stand there and watch the bird fly off. Watch the dog.... Say nothing...just watch. The dog will tell you, with its body language, when it is time to make the next step. If you have any doubts...ask.

As I said previously, you have awesome resources available on this site. Do not hesitate to use them.

RayG

[RoostersMom]

Nothing negative meant in my post. I thought you were using WHOA on birds with a 6 month pup. Sorry about that - I misread the post. Nothing wrong with obedience at all, I just prefer to limit it in the field and let them learn on their own - it's between the dogs and the birds for a good long time before I start messing with WHOA work on birds.

[Sharon]

As Ray said:

That's what I do at 6 months too. Hard flying pigeons slightly dizzied , allowed to take off. Cheap training $$ . Leads to creeping then holding a point down the road.. The bird teaches the lessons.

[aulrich]

If there is any sort of chance for fun field romps with a chance of wild birds I would start looking for them, also as things warm up I would be doing swamp romps as well pup sized water where he can chase ducks and learn to swim. Also do be a completed cheapskate like me, Don’t do all of your pups training days with pigeons, pay the money for a couple of chukar, I showed up to the NA test and my guy did not know what a chukar was he would point pigeons but I had not given enough exposure so he was a little lost

[GSP923]

Its, fine just a misunderstanding I know sometimes im not real detailed either on these posts. Yeah we have been hitting the woods and the fields where snow isn't too bad. I just let her do her thing and don't say a word. In the feilds she did find a wild pheasant which surprised the heck out of me cause we were just on a walk not expecting any birds lol. She ran after it and it took off she stopped and watched it fly off. We also have been hitting the woods looking for grouse but no luck so far, im not sure where grouse are this time of year.

I always keep training fun and if I start getting frustrated we stop. I always keep training short and her wanting more. I dont want to be one of those guys that expects a national champ out of a 6 month old pup, im new to this and have already met some of those people and they bother me lol. Im just out to have fun and make sure my dog does as well. I dont want to expect too much too fast from her.

[campgsp]

Plant a bird. Keep control so she can't catch it with a check chord.

[Bluesky2012]

Being honest, who has ever had a dog catch a bird during their intro to bird phase and had it ruin their dog? I think it was Neil who brought up the point of a dog not catching a bird and only getting a bird when it held point perfectly, bird was flushed, then shot. Just being honest I had my pointer retrieve dozens of clip winged birds from fields and water before ever putting it on a planted bird. Never had an issue. I have a hard time believing it is that serious of an issue at an early age.

For an older dog, sure, planted pen raised birds can cause an issue, but throwing a cripple will only entice more drive in a dog.

I understand there is a situational difference between a cripple and a planted bird, but early on, I don't think it's a big deal. If a dog can somehow manage to link together the thought process of "I can't catch it so if I stand still it will fly up, that guy will shoot it, then I will get it", then what does a dog think when you have a bad day shooting? Honest question. I've seen the statements about not catching a bird before, but I've never actually hear proof behind it before. Seems too much for a dog to associate.

[S&J gsp]

....

[RayGubernat]

Being honest, who has ever had a dog catch a bird during their intro to bird phase and had it ruin their dog? I think it was Neil who brought up the point of a dog not catching a bird and only getting a bird when it held point perfectly, bird was flushed, then shot. Just being honest I had my pointer retrieve dozens of clip winged birds from fields and water before ever putting it on a planted bird. Never had an issue. I have a hard time believing it is that serious of an issue at an early age.

For an older dog, sure, planted pen raised birds can cause an issue, but throwing a cripple will only entice more drive in a dog.

I understand there is a situational difference between a cripple and a planted bird, but early on, I don't think it's a big deal. If a dog can somehow manage to link together the thought process of "I can't catch it so if I stand still it will fly up, that guy will shoot it, then I will get it", then what does a dog think when you have a bad day shooting? Honest question. I've seen the statements about not catching a bird before, but I've never actually hear proof behind it before. Seems too much for a dog to associate.

Please understand that my perspective here is that of a field trialer. To be competitive, a dog has to go to its birds aggressively, slam its points and stand there like a marine major on a parade ground. It has to be bold, confident and stylish...and not so much as a toenail should move,...even though everything around him is chaos. If you do not have that, you got nothin'.

It is not the intro to bird phase where catching a bird is a problem. Intro to birds is generally done with a very young 2-4 month old dog. Allowing the puppy, with puppy teeth, to mess with a clipwing pigeon or restrained gamebird that is about half its size is one thing. Allowing a more or less fully grown pointing dog to do the same... is a whole 'nother thing.

The goal here is to have the adult dog find point and hold that point.

if the dog is pretty well convinced that trying to catch a bird is a waste of time, it is much more receptive to the training to stop and stand until we get there. It is much more receptive to the concept of allowing the human partner to flush and shoot the bird(which is kinda what we have in mind). That means it can be done with less pressure. Less pressure usually means the dog will retain more of its natural confidence and style.

If the dog has in its mind that it can catch the bird, because it has... this is one more thing that must be trained out. That means more pressure and more chances for loss of style and confidence. If the dog does it right, everything is positive, everybody is happy. A happy dog is a confident dog, a stylish dog. If the dog dives in and tries to catch or tiptoes in, trying to get close(so it can dive in), pressure has to be applied to stop the dog and that is a negative which will, at least temporarily, make the dog less happy and less confident and stylish.

And YES I have seen dogs that have gotten set back in their training and a couple get set waaaaay back by catching a bird or two. I personally have never seen a dog "ruined" by catching a bird but I am an amateur who has not seen all that many dogs in training.

I am quite sure if you canvassed professional pointing dog trainers, especially field trial dog trainers, they would tell you that allowing a grown dog to catch birds will very often make that dog a more difficult subject to get fully steady to wing and shot and the honest ones will tell you of a dog or two that they could never quite break of wanting to dive in.

I would say that it would be rather rare to have a well bred bird dog "ruined" by catching a bird or two. But if it so happens that your dog is that one, rare, individual...that would suck big time. Why take the risk?

RayG

[birddogger]

And from what the the OP has told us, the dog has had plenty of bird intro and has great prey drive. Why would anybody feel the need to continue with this or allow him to catch birds?? I mean I see no additional benefits to it but I could see plenty of bad things coming from it. JMO.

Charlie

[Bluesky2012]

Missed the "6 months" and the parts about the dog having done basic intro. I agree, I was thinkin it was a 2-3 month old he wanted to get fired up. My bad, yeah by 6 months they should be slamming hard on planted birds.

[cjhills]

All of my dogs from 6 months on, run down and catch wounded birds. Why does this not ruin them? Or for that matter why does the NAVHDA duck search not encourage chasing? They are also steady to WSF...........Cj

[Fun dog]

Wounded is the key word there.

[cjhills]

Wounded is the key word there.

Wounded or not it is still encouraging the dog to chase..............................Cj

[RayGubernat]

Wounded is the key word there.

Wounded or not it is still encouraging the dog to chase..............................Cj

If the dog is in fact steady to wing and shot, or indeed if it is only staunch and allowed to break at flush... then I disagree that it is "encouraging " the chase.

Here is my reasoning...

The dog has stood steady to wing and shot and is then sent to bring back a dead or wounded bird. Dog did everything right and the retrieve is the reward. At least that is the way I see that one.

If the dog is only trained to be staunch, and indeed does exactly that...and breaks at flush...as it has been trained to do...then the retrieve is once again the reward because the dog has done everything right.

If the steady dog moves on point, dives in or whatever, and busts the bird, or if the staunch does the same and the hunter does not shoot, but instead calls the dog in and sets it back up and makes it stand there... then the dog gets the clear idea that it messed up and there is no joy. If the dog is wearing an e-collar and gets nicked for chasing... until it quits chasing... that also sends a fairly clear message of the handler's displeasure. The dog is being "encouraged" or trained if you prefer, not to break on its own, but to wait for the appropriate signal.

If, however the hunter shoots at the busted bird and then sends the dog...the handler is indeed encouraging( or in fact TRAINING) the dog to chase. In this instance, it ain't the dog and it ain't the bird sending messages...it is the human that determines what message is sent to the dog.

Your dog...your call. I have no problem either way. But we should not fault a dog for doing what it has been trained to do.

RayG