Heel & Whoa

[Vikingoo168]

I have six month old GSP and so far all we have worked on other than basic obedience is heel and whoa. I started heel and whoa using a pinch colar(choker chain) and he has gotten to the point where he responds near perfect to my verbal commands rarely needing correction. I started incorporating his regular collar and found that he does not respond to my commands nearly as well as when he is wearing the pinch collar. Any recommendations on transitioning to heel and whoa with out a pinch collar or any collar at all?

Thanks!!

[Big bloc]

You might try to use hand signals at the same time. I pat the side of my leg to come for heel .And for whoa I use STOP with my hand in the air just like a cop. Stop means stop. Also she can see your hands at a distance. Good Luck

[RichK]

Introduce the pup to the e collar.

[kcbullets]

In my opinion the e-collar and collar conditioning is the only way to get compliance 100%. I'm sure some dogs may do it without, but I have never owned one of those.

[Fun dog]

Lots of repetition. At 6 months you have lots of time. Don't be to quick to get rid of your training tools.

[RayGubernat]

Viking -

I have had real good luck with starting out using a Smith wonder lead(I actually use a pigging string). I transition to a prong collar when the dog is doing the job I want. I actually would not use a choker collar. I would also not start out with a prong collar.

If you are using verbal commands, I am concerned that you may not be doing the drill correctly. The heel and whoa should be done silently. any and all aorrections should come through the lead rope to the dog'g neck. The dog's focus should be on your knee. When your knee moves forward, the dog should stay right with, and slightly behind that knee. When the knee goes left, the dog's nose should come around to the left. The dog should be focused on keeping its nose within six inches of your knee and about an inch behind the front of the knee. left, right, forward, even back(when the dog gets good at it)...no matter where you move, that dog's nose should be glued to that spot just off and just behind your knee.

I have found that both the wonder lead and a JASA pinch collar set the dog up for success by letting the dog decide whether or not it gets pinched. If the dog is at your knee, where it belongs, the loop of the wonder lead or pinch collar is open and there is zero pressure on the dog's neck. If the dog surges forward, hangs back, goes left or right...anywhere away from you knee...the loop closes and the correction happens.

When I do the drill with a wonder lead...my hand does not move... unless I have to "encourage" or cue the dog. It is positioned at the start such that if the dog's nose is where it belongs, there is no pressure on the dog's neck. Once I start moving...it is totally up to the dog as to whether they strangle themselves or not.

Obviously, when you are first introducing the drill to the dog, you do it gently, but persistently. Most dog, even my brick headed pointers get the message fairly quickly. As they progress, I mix up the drills, going left, going right, stopping, starting, etc. I try to keep it fresh and make it into a game of "gotcha" with the dog. That really seems to get them to focus on my movements. When I can do a false start by picking up my leg and leaning forward and then put the same leg down in the same spot...and all the dog does is follow the leg with its eyes and nose, not moving its feet at all.... I know I got the little sucker's attention. Especially when I look down and the dog flips its eyes back up at me, and then back down at my knee without moving its head.

I use essentially the Paul Long method for heel/whoa drills. I have also read a similar, but more strict version in a book describing the Koehler method for training guard dogs and such.

A six month old puppy is still, just that...a puppy. I start my dogs on heel/whoa drills at about 16 weeks and continue until the dog is around a year old, more or less. I do not insist on perfection in the execution of the drill, but I do strive for it and work toward it. It is always the goal, but responsiveness, attention and the dog having fun are more important to me than a perfect execution.

RayG

[Elkhunter]

6 month old is a little early to do much of any training IMO. Let the dog grow up.

[Sharon]

Hmmmm. Mine are finding out that they can't catch that bird at 6 months and better come up with a new plan - pretty important lesson to learn early. No pressure. I say little/nothing.

[birddog1968]

At 6 .months I let em do a little bump and chase.... Stress on little....real training starting soon after, depending on the dog of course....prior to that I've got them coming when called and have them crazy for retrieving bumpers from land and water. Other than that I'm just happy timing on walks in woods and fields building confidence and Independence.

I know Ray uses heal whoa to great success, Its just a little foreign to me to teach a young pointing dog to stay by my side before letting it roll out front building confidence.

[Sharon]

At 6 .months I let em do a little bump and chase.... Stress on little....real training starting soon after, depending on the dog of course....prior to that I've got them coming when called and have them crazy for retrieving bumpers from land and water. Other than that I'm just happy timing on walks in woods and fields building confidence and Independence.

..............

Exactly. Well said.

[Trekmoor]

Ditto to Sharon's post.

I.M.O. unless a hunting breed is to be used for Obedience type competitions in a ring , really good ,tight heelwork is not essential. I don't really understand why an e-collar would be needed at all when teaching heelwork . The dog is right beside you or within feet of you and is already accustomed to "behaving" when close to you . All I need to train heelwork up to even Obedience arena standards is a slip lead and my voice.

When training the hunting breeds whether they are spaniels or the versatiles, I train what I call "practical heelwork." That means the dog keeps within a few feet from me but is free to move around me a bit when we encounter obstacles of any kind as long as it does not move in front of me. When that training is finished I can hunt one dog right across the paths of the other 2-3 dogs I have at heel and those dogs remain at heel during the other dog's hunt and during any finds on birds it might have.

Bill T.

[birddogger]

In my opinion the e-collar and collar conditioning is the only way to get compliance 100%. I'm sure some dogs may do it without, but I have never owned one of those.

Back in the day, I trained dogs to whoa with nothing but a leash and flat collar. Just say'n I didn't teach "heel" but rather just conditioned them to walk on a loose lead. It is not that hard...As has been said, just a lot of repetitions. I can accomplish it faster now days with the modern equipment and I prefer it that way but it is far from being a must.

Charlie

[RayGubernat]

In my opinion the e-collar and collar conditioning is the only way to get compliance 100%. I'm sure some dogs may do it without, but I have never owned one of those.

Back in the day, I trained dogs to whoa with nothing but a leash and flat collar. Just say'n I didn't teach "heel" but rather just conditioned them to walk on a loose lead. It is not that hard...As has been said, just a lot of repetitions. I can accomplish it faster now days with the modern equipment and I prefer it that way but it is far from being a must.

Charlie

+1

Actually, my pups do not see or feel an e-collar for quite a while. probably eight or nine months of age at the earliest. They start wearing it in the field, but I almost never use the e-collar with the yardwork. I very much prefer to use the checkcord, pigging string and, most especially, my hands. I have this thing about getting my hands on a dog and using them to settle, reassure and praise the dog. Dogs, especially young ones, need to work for a person, not a remote button.

I do a good bit of yardwork with a pigging string, and then a prong collar and then dragging a short checkcord and then ...Nothing. If a pup will not heel quietly by my side in the yard...stop when I stop, go when I go, with no training aids on...I have more yardwork to do. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

If I cannot heel and whoa a dog in the yard and then, with the dog at whoa, leave its side and walk out front, walk all around, including behind... and simulate a flushing attempt out front, with shushing and kicking, maybe even throwing a hat......and have the dog stand there tall and proud and not moving so much as a toenail...we have more work to do in the yard. With a youngster, I do five to ten minutes of yardwork in the morning...every morning... and another five to ten minutes every night.

Most pros cannot do what the single dog owner can do because there simply are not enough hours in the day to do all of that for every single pup they have in training, along with all the other dogs and responsibilities they have.

RayG

[Sharon]

In my opinion the e-collar and collar conditioning is the only way to get compliance 100%. I'm sure some dogs may do it without, but I have never owned one of those.

Back in the day, I trained dogs to whoa with nothing but a leash and flat collar. Just say'n I didn't teach "heel" but rather just conditioned them to walk on a loose lead. It is not that hard...As has been said, just a lot of repetitions. I can accomplish it faster now days with the modern equipment and I prefer it that way but it is far from being a must.

Charlie

Exactly. I was going to say that ( honest:) ) I've never used a barrel , prong collar etc and have had success.