Not facing the bird on point

[aulrich]

So this may seem odd but my dog is not always looking in the direction of the bird when he goes on point. Now typically I would attest this to running, but last night I was walking the boy in our local off leash area we bump a bird(bad wind direction) it loops back around us but I see exactly where it lands. So I figure we will play with it on the way home. So we continue the walk and on the way back we get to the general area and I get him back on the hunt. He goes 15 yards down the hill and slams on point, but he is perpendicular to the wind. Now I scratch my head thinking what is he doing, but I look and as far as I can tell he is dead downwind of where I guessed the bird was. So I walk to get in front of him by walking through the area where I last saw the bird, as it happens a hen pheasant pops out 6’-8’ dead up wind.

So there have been times he was pointing in what I thought was the wrong direction, I had figured that he saw a bird and froze, but this has me thinking that there may have been a very close upwind contact that got away while I thrashed around in front of the dog?

[GunDogAdventures]

The more I trial my dog, the more she teaches me. And in those moments I hear a solemn "Trust your dog!" in my head.

[KwikIrish]

I hope I'm understanding this right. The dog is moving cross wind (perpendicular), hits scent, and stops. Do you want the dog to turn into the wind? Any further movement from the dog could cause the bird to flush. Their job is to stop when they hit scent, not to draw you a map. Your job is to interprate the dog and wind conditions to know where to flush. Sounds to me like the dog is doing it's job and doing it well!

[slistoe]

Sounds like the dog is more experienced than the owner.

[aulrich]

Yup to that, and no I did not want to make him turn, just surprised.

And if he resembles a hunting dog most of the credit goes to his sir and dame

[Sharon]

The more I trial my dog, the more she teaches me. And in those moments I hear a solemn "Trust your dog!" in my head.

x2

Still remember a Championship trial where the handler called an unproductive. As he heeled his dog away, the bird flew off from under the log. Not a happy man.

[DonF]

Is the dogs head toward the bird? Dog's job bis to accurately locate the bird. Forget the body, follow the head.

[Neil]

What is the experience level of the dog, most learn to point their nose where they think the bird is, and will move their head but not their feet if the birds move, and some never do. I have seen them raise their head if the bird moves away.

One of the downsides of training a high, cranked head on the barrel is the loss of this precission location.

[slistoe]

Some of the best dogs I have had would lock up on point in whatever direction they were moving when they hit scent and the signal they got was "freeze now and freeze hard". I never did have a problem locating a bird on them - it is really pretty simple once you understand the basic concept that they point when the scent carried on the air currents enters into their nostrils. Start at the nostril of the dog and look for the bird in a line directly into the air currents - who cares where the dog is standing, looking or cranking - unless the bird has moved it will be somewhere upwind of the dog,

[Neil]

That works ok with wild, spooky birds in a steady wind; but most often the wind shifts and swirls, and with drop down or pre-released ones that hunker down I prefer the dog to "point" them out. And good dogs can point them upwind and certainly cross wind. I give credit to the ones that acurately locates birds. It is also helpful in heavy cover so I can at least try to be on the same side of an opening as a bird.

I thing there is a reason we came to call them" pointers" and not "stoppers" or "standers".

[whoadog]

What is the experience level of the dog, most learn to point their nose where they think the bird is, and will move their head but not their feet if the birds move, and some never do. I have seen them raise their head if the bird moves away.

Ah, memories. I have not thought of this particualar dog for a week or two, but, the best I ever had would visibly soften as a bird started moving off. His head would. with the direction the bird moved for a moment and then he would look at me as if to say, "What do you think boss, time to re-locate?" I miss that dog.

[slistoe]

That works ok with wild, spooky birds in a steady wind; but most often the wind shifts and swirls, and with drop down or pre-released ones that hunker down I prefer the dog to "point" them out. And good dogs can point them upwind and certainly cross wind. I give credit to the ones that acurately locates birds. It is also helpful in heavy cover so I can at least try to be on the same side of an opening as a bird.

I thing there is a reason we came to call them" pointers" and not "stoppers" or "standers".

The most accurately located birds I come across are the ones where the dog is stopped in whatever position, frozen solid and intense. Those are the birds that are "right there" just upwind of the nose. If the dog loses his bird because the bird moves off or the wind swirls the dog will tell me - providing I have the acumen to observe the dog.

Those same dogs will give "accurate location" on birds winded from 100 yards out as well because they will work the wind till the birds are on the threshold of flight but are convinced to freeze because the dog has frozen - with his nose to the wind.

[slistoe]

What is the experience level of the dog, most learn to point their nose where they think the bird is, and will move their head but not their feet if the birds move, and some never do. I have seen them raise their head if the bird moves away.

Ah, memories. I have not thought of this particualar dog for a week or two, but, the best I ever had would visibly soften as a bird started moving off. His head would. with the direction the bird moved for a moment and then he would look at me as if to say, "What do you think boss, time to re-locate?" I miss that dog.

It is funny to watch this as a judge in a trial as the handler tries to flush and the dog tracks the bird as it evades the handler by running around in the cover. It is so tempting to just say "Look at your dog."

[aulrich]

He just passed 2 years old and his head was straight forward. normally I can get a good idea from his eyes.

[Soarer31]

why not train your dog to flush on command , at least you won't have to thrash
around kicking the countryside

[Neil]

why not train your dog to flush on command , at least you won't have to thrash
around kicking the countryside

That is not considered proper manners for pointing dogs by most in America.

We breed and train flushers to do that.

[Soarer31]

Give us a break Neil,..
Fair enough, you don't do that at field trials, what about people that just hunt? What's wrong that?
So what do you do if your dog points and for what ever reason you can't get in front of the dog to flush the bird?
Throw stones??
Whistle Dixie ??
What do you do??

[KwikIrish]

Give us a break Neil,..
Fair enough, you don't do that at field trials, what about people that just hunt? What's wrong that?
So what do you do if your dog points and for what ever reason you can't get in front of the dog to flush the bird?
Throw stones??
Whistle Dixie ??
What do you do??

I've climbed under deadfalls and crossed icy streams to flush. I do that because my dog is doing his job and shouldn't have to do mine. Maybe next time I can teach him to shoot my gun, too! (Might improve our success rate!)

[cjhills]

Give us a break Neil,..
Fair enough, you don't do that at field trials, what about people that just hunt? What's wrong that?
So what do you do if your dog points and for what ever reason you can't get in front of the dog to flush the bird?
Throw stones??
Whistle Dixie ??
What do you do??

I've climbed under deadfalls and crossed icy streams to flush. I do that because my dog is doing his job and shouldn't have to do mine. Maybe next time I can teach him to shoot my gun, too! (Might improve our success rate!)

Who writes the job descriptions. I have always thought the best case scenario would be to send the dog for the flush and have him stop on flush. The problem might be on long points the bird would flush out of range.................Cj

[aulrich]

Give us a break Neil,..
Fair enough, you don't do that at field trials, what about people that just hunt? What's wrong that?
So what do you do if your dog points and for what ever reason you can't get in front of the dog to flush the bird?
Throw stones??
Whistle Dixie ??
What do you do??

I've climbed under deadfalls and crossed icy streams to flush. I do that because my dog is doing his job and shouldn't have to do mine. Maybe next time I can teach him to shoot my gun, too! (Might improve our success rate!)

Who writes the job descriptions. I have always thought the best case scenario would be to send the dog for the flush and have him stop on flush. The problem might be on long points the bird would flush out of range.................Cj

Ya Know, if I hear that "I don't care if they do it in Europe, we don't do that here" argument one more time, I'll have to do it just for principal, but not until after his UT test.

[DonF]

To be sure my dogs had birds I used to relocate them into training birds then pop them if they got to close. A dog that wouldn't relocate had the bird and had it accurately. I always came around from the front, the range depended on how high the dog held it's head. I noticed over the years that the higher the head, the farther to bird and the lower the closer. then always take a lead on the dog's nose. Never went traipsing around in front of the dog looking for a birds my dog said was right there. The dogs job is to find and ACCURATELY point the bird. If someone wanted to teach their dog to flush on command, wouldn't bother me. Your dog should do what you want it to do, it works for you! I knew a young guy trialing years ago, he's a pro now, that thought it would impress people if his dog pointed from a long way off. He taught the dog's to point at first scent, which at times could be quite a ways off. Problem was he had a lot of trouble locating birds and a lot of bumps when he relocated. I doubt that plan would work any better for a hunter than a trialer. With the hunter and wild birds, most will probably simply walk off, the dog is to far off to hold them. And if you send a dog in to flush a bird that is 40 yds or more off and the bird flush's straight away, where's your shot? I don't shoot that well. have had pointing dog's a long time and when I was younger, most birds did not get away. But then my shot's were always fairly close too! I was terrible pass shooting ducks!

I think the bottom line is your dog should do what you want it to do. But there are better options to a pointing dog flushing the birds for you, that would be flushing dog's. Pointer's are bred to run wide than flusher's, it's what they do. Could you train them to stay in? Sure. What do you do though when your pointer does point a bird far off and you send it to flush and have birds get up out of range? I think the guy that get's a dog that is bred to do what he wants will be happier with the dog in the long run.

[KwikIrish]

Give us a break Neil,..
Fair enough, you don't do that at field trials, what about people that just hunt? What's wrong that?
So what do you do if your dog points and for what ever reason you can't get in front of the dog to flush the bird?
Throw stones??
Whistle Dixie ??
What do you do??

I've climbed under deadfalls and crossed icy streams to flush. I do that because my dog is doing his job and shouldn't have to do mine. Maybe next time I can teach him to shoot my gun, too! (Might improve our success rate!)

Who writes the job descriptions. I have always thought the best case scenario would be to send the dog for the flush and have him stop on flush. The problem might be on long points the bird would flush out of range.................Cj

I write my dogs' job description. That's all that matters to me. You're free to set your own standard!

[aulrich]

Valid points, I view flush on command as a special context tool anyways. The bulk of my hunting is typical prairie hunting where yes the hunter flushing is the way to go. Though I am less convinced in the grouse woods. For a lone hunter going in for the flush will likely pull you out of the only shooting lane.

Your jumping out of range point brings up a counter argument of being in a set position vs getting caught straddling a dead fall on the flush equally a non shot.

[TonyS]

Gotta remember it is a team sport. Your job is to give the dog a ride out there and shoot the bird. It is HIS job to find the bird and point it.

Don't get confused. Your dog will show you.