Pointing issues

[chrisss]

I have been putting my dog on birds and have notice that he doesn't scent point but instead sight pointing. How do I fix this?

[Big bloc]

How old is the dog?

[cjhills]

Are you talking planted birds? If you are why can he see them? .....................................Cj

[magspa]

Plant birds in taller grass and bring her in cross wind.

[chrisss]

He's 7 months and when I plant birds he doesn't use his nose and he only points if he sees the bird. Tried bringing him cross wind but he does point

[slistoe]

When you brought him cross wind he scent pointed?

[Meller]

What breed of dog.

[DonF]

You have access to remote release traps? If not you bringing him in on a check cord? If you are, your letting him sight point. He hit's scent, you stop him.

[chrisss]

You have access to remote release traps? If not you bringing him in on a check cord? If you are, your letting him sight point. He hit's scent, you stop him.

Yes i use a check cord but he only drags it around I don't hold on to it. He will such and skip birds that he doesn't see. He only point when he visually sees the bird. The bird sometimes walks off and he sees the birds then he points. He can be right over the bird and not point if he doesn't see it.

[TonyS]

Repeat. What breed of dog?

If he can't see them you may try a game I started when my pup was little and pretended his nose didn't work. I would rub him on the face with a dead quail. Get him excited and ready to have that bird. Then close the dog in the house and you go out and carefully plant the dead bird. Make sure you also go put your scent in several other places around the yard.

Let him out and say 'hunt 'em up'. Go sit and watch the fun. At first he may not know what's going on since he has been sight pointing. If he looks confused bring him to you and let him smell your hands. Repeat -'hunt em up'. When he finds it praise him like crazy, hug him and love him up. He will figure out what you two are doing.

Eventually, your dog will cry and scream to get out of the house to find the bird.

[Del Lolo]

How much "wing on a string" did you do ?
Why are you training the dog to "point dead" ?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Repeat. What breed of dog?

If he can't see them you may try a game I started when my pup was little and pretended his nose didn't work. I would rub him on the face with a dead quail. Get him excited and ready to have that bird. Then close the dog in the house and you go out and carefully plant the dead bird. Make sure you also go put your scent in several other places around the yard.

Let him out and say 'hunt 'em up'. Go sit and watch the fun. At first he may not know what's going on since he has been sight pointing. If he looks confused bring him to you and let him smell your hands. Repeat -'hunt em up'. When he finds it praise him like crazy, hug him and love him up. He will figure out what you two are doing.

Eventually, your dog will cry and scream to get out of the house to find the bird.

Forgive me but I don't see why you would use dead birds? ... My dogs wont point dead birds, only live ones..I guess if your goal is to have your dog point dead birds and fresh kills than that sounds good but if the goal is live birds then I don't see how this works.

[Bluesky2012]

Repeat. What breed of dog?

If he can't see them you may try a game I started when my pup was little and pretended his nose didn't work. I would rub him on the face with a dead quail. Get him excited and ready to have that bird. Then close the dog in the house and you go out and carefully plant the dead bird. Make sure you also go put your scent in several other places around the yard.

Let him out and say 'hunt 'em up'. Go sit and watch the fun. At first he may not know what's going on since he has been sight pointing. If he looks confused bring him to you and let him smell your hands. Repeat -'hunt em up'. When he finds it praise him like crazy, hug him and love him up. He will figure out what you two are doing.

Eventually, your dog will cry and scream to get out of the house to find the bird.

Forgive me but I don't see why you would use dead birds? ... My dogs wont point dead birds, only live ones..I guess if your goal is to have your dog point dead birds and fresh kills than that sounds good but if the goal is live birds then I don't see how this works.

Agreed. What are you teaching the dog by this? To find birds on the ground via scent, but then grab them and run? The dog needs to understand the gun is what makes the bird "grab-able" on the ground (aka dead bird). If you just throw dead birds around, then the dog doesn't learn to point to prevent the bird from flying. If it starts grabbing a few birds, you're hurting yourself. If the dead bird never flies (which it obviously won't) then the dog doesn't learn any of the connections it needs to in order to hunt. This seems like some poor advice. You may have gotten lucky tony, but it isn't going to benefit you much, if any, compared to a live planted bird.

[DonF]

If your nit going to take him in on a check cord, get remote release traps and when he get's within about 10 yds, scent cone or not, pop the bird. He just hasn't started yet. If he's still doing it when he's a year and you haven't been letting him, then you might have a problem. My Stormy started fairly late, Bodie and Squirt about from birth! At four months Gertie couldn't have cared less, by five months she was really turned on. Don't worry, if you brought from any kind of decent bloodline's the pup will turn on. If you keep allowing it to go into birds it see's, that's what your teaching it!

[Tooling]

Get some small smelly treats & make pup understand that he loves them by rewarding him w/them for a couple days.

While in the yard drop some in the grass kind of hiding them - call pup to you and cheerfully tell him to search or whatever, make it a game..a fun game - when he finds them love him up good and tell him what a good boy he is. Play this game in the house & once he knows the game get him excited about the scent of birds but stop with the bird leaving him wanting more. Hide a bird in the leaves/grass and take pup for a walk. Don't hover atop the bird but give him the cue that you have conditioned him to understand - do not help him but also do not move forward just waiting quietly for pup to make his discovery - once he does love him up real good and tell him what a good boy he is - condition him to use his nose and then begin w/many of the suggestions already given (releases etc.)

[Tooling]

...use live birds either dizzied or in a kick cage, I think if you make pup understand he/she has a nose and then make him bird crazy I believe you will find that the problem fixes itself (assuming you have a bird dog)

[RayGubernat]

If your nit going to take him in on a check cord, get remote release traps and when he get's within about 10 yds, scent cone or not, pop the bird. He just hasn't started yet. If he's still doing it when he's a year and you haven't been letting him, then you might have a problem. My Stormy started fairly late, Bodie and Squirt about from birth! At four months Gertie couldn't have cared less, by five months she was really turned on. Don't worry, if you brought from any kind of decent bloodline's the pup will turn on. If you keep allowing it to go into birds it see's, that's what your teaching it!

As usual, DonF has it right. Live bird in a launcher...dog on a checkcord. If it is a pointing breed dog, ANY pointing breed...that is the way to git 'er done.

Buy, beg or borrow a remote launcher or get a friend to help you.

I also train a youngster on a checkcord. I keep the dog close, but let the dog ramble on a lightly held 30 ft. CC.

If you know exactly where the bird is and bring the dog in downwind and crosswind, the dog will telegraph to you when it smells the bird. It will turn its head, lift its nose, drop its nose, turn into the scent, hesitate or any combination of the above. Watch closely and you will see it. You know precisely where the bird is and you know precisely which way the wind is blowing. Use that information to your advantage.

The INSTANT...the very instant... the dog sends you a signal that it has smelled the bird...POP THE LAUNCHER and tighten up on the checkcord. If the dog simply turns into where the bird is and roads in...POP IT and hold onto the cord. DO not allow the dog get on top of the bird.

You can do this most easily with a remote launcher, but an assistant with a manual launcher and a string can do pretty well if you have a pre-arranged signal, like raised arm. Just stake the manual launcher down so that it doesn't flop around and fail to open when the string is pulled.

Good luck.

RayG

[Bluesky2012]

Get some small smelly treats & make pup understand that he loves them by rewarding him w/them for a couple days.

While in the yard drop some in the grass kind of hiding them - call pup to you and cheerfully tell him to search or whatever, make it a game..a fun game - when he finds them love him up good and tell him what a good boy he is. Play this game in the house & once he knows the game get him excited about the scent of birds but stop with the bird leaving him wanting more. Hide a bird in the leaves/grass and take pup for a walk. Don't hover atop the bird but give him the cue that you have conditioned him to understand - do not help him but also do not move forward just waiting quietly for pup to make his discovery - once he does love him up real good and tell him what a good boy he is - condition him to use his nose and then begin w/many of the suggestions already given (releases etc.)

I really don't see any use for the treats here. If a dog is properly introduced to birds and becomes bird crazy (as a well bred and properly introduced puppy will) then it will care more about a bird than food. Take a bowl of food and a live crippled pigeon. As the dog goes for the good, throw the bird and see which the dog goes after. I'd guarantee it'd go after the bird vice food. You shouldn't need a treat to encourage it to find a bird. It's instinct and desire should do that.

[Tooling]

Ray - is there any instance in which you would let a young pup chase?

[Tooling]

Get some small smelly treats & make pup understand that he loves them by rewarding him w/them for a couple days.

While in the yard drop some in the grass kind of hiding them - call pup to you and cheerfully tell him to search or whatever, make it a game..a fun game - when he finds them love him up good and tell him what a good boy he is. Play this game in the house & once he knows the game get him excited about the scent of birds but stop with the bird leaving him wanting more. Hide a bird in the leaves/grass and take pup for a walk. Don't hover atop the bird but give him the cue that you have conditioned him to understand - do not help him but also do not move forward just waiting quietly for pup to make his discovery - once he does love him up real good and tell him what a good boy he is - condition him to use his nose and then begin w/many of the suggestions already given (releases etc.)

I really don't see any use for the treats here. If a dog is properly introduced to birds and becomes bird crazy (as a well bred and properly introduced puppy will) then it will care more about a bird than food. Take a bowl of food and a live crippled pigeon. As the dog goes for the good, throw the bird and see which the dog goes after. I'd guarantee it'd go after the bird vice food. You shouldn't need a treat to encourage it to find a bird. It's instinct and desire should do that.

Can't really disagree b/c you are right, birds SHOULD do it but if the dog is not using his greatest asset it couldn't hurt to make him or to encourage it...still don't know what breed we're talking about here though..

[Sharon]

Ray - is there any instance in which you would let a young pup chase?

I'm not Ray , but I let pups chase. I want the bird to teach the lesson that they can't be caught - only using hard flying pigeons. When the pup starts to creep or point , that's the end of chasing. Many though would never let the pup chase.

[Tooling]

Ray - is there any instance in which you would let a young pup chase?

I'm not Ray , but I let pups chase. I want the bird to teach the lesson that they can't be caught - only using hard flying pigeons. When the pup starts to creep or point , that's the end of chasing. Many though would never let the pup chase.

Thx not Ray

How about in the op's scenario - say op gets pup to discover by scent & strikes a point..wouldn't this scenario call for a bit of a chase just to jazz pup up on birds? Letting a pup chase seems counter productive to me however I hear it discussed here often as the proper technique. (Obviously all pups & situations differ to an extent)

Edited: This is assuming a pointing dog

[Bluesky2012]

Ray - is there any instance in which you would let a young pup chase?

I'm not Ray , but I let pups chase. I want the bird to teach the lesson that they can't be caught - only using hard flying pigeons. When the pup starts to creep or point , that's the end of chasing. Many though would never let the pup chase.

Thx not Ray

How about in the op's scenario - say op gets pup to discover by scent & strikes a point..wouldn't this scenario call for a bit of a chase just to jazz pup up on birds? Letting a pup chase seems counter productive to me however I hear it discussed here often as the proper technique. (Obviously all pups & situations differ to an extent)

Edited: This is assuming a pointing dog

I let mine chase for the first bit. Heck if it was a low drive dog, I'd add shiny streamers and tie a hot dog to it if that's what it took to make it want to get a bird. I'd rather have to stop a dog from the chase rather than coax one to want to find a bird at all. Easier to apply the brakes than to give it gas.

[Stoneface]

If your nit going to take him in on a check cord, get remote release traps and when he get's within about 10 yds, scent cone or not, pop the bird. He just hasn't started yet. If he's still doing it when he's a year and you haven't been letting him, then you might have a problem. My Stormy started fairly late, Bodie and Squirt about from birth! At four months Gertie couldn't have cared less, by five months she was really turned on. Don't worry, if you brought from any kind of decent bloodline's the pup will turn on. If you keep allowing it to go into birds it see's, that's what your teaching it!

+1

Don and I agree on this one. Except, if he picks up scent farther away than 10 yards - say 20 yards - and doesn't put on the brakes, you should pop the bird. The problem is your dog doesn't respect the birds. All dogs prefer to see a bird than not, so if he thinks the birds are going to let him get close enough to see them, he's going to try and get close enough to see them. If you start flying the birds real quick after he catches scent or before he actually catches scent, he'll think they are the spookiest birds in the world and won't try their patience by crowding them to be within site.

[TonyS]

How interesting. DELETED POSTS BY ME.

I pointed out the original request in this (DELETED) post was about improving a pup's nose. I suggested playing with the pup in hunting dead.

Somehow, management here, wanted that direction with the resultant posts decrying the practice as not for hunting dogs.

Twisted, twisted. No wonder.

Is someone fooled?

[Pepper]

I have been putting my dog on birds and have notice that he doesn't scent point but instead sight pointing. How do I fix this?

By being patient...these dogs are not tupperware. You have a young dog and maybe a young trainer.

[Bluesky2012]

Out of curiosity did the OP fix the problem? The suggestions made sense and I'd expect solid results by now as the dog grew and was exposed to more birds.

[Neil]

At 7 months old, as this pup is, I am pleased if they stop to pee. And yes, I let them chase and shoot some flushed birds.

[Sharon]

At 7 months old, as this pup is, I am pleased if they stop to pee. And yes, I let them chase and shoot some flushed birds.

And here I thought you had high standards.

[Neil]

I have very high standards for adult dogs (and humans), but whatever the young do gives me hope. One of the least productive dogs I ever owned was steady to wing and shot at 6 months old. I never caught him in mistake, it was a good thing he backed well, because that is what he did most of the time. He even placed in a few trials, as he stumbled on to a few birds.

Hunting or trialing give me the bold charger that learns from their many mistakes. Let them grow up. I don't want a perfect dog, I want the renegade that excites. Now to be fair, I loved him dearly, he lived to please me. As my son said on his death, he did more with less than any dog I ever owned. His obituary was in the American Field.

[Sharon]

Who was that Neil - obituary in the AF?

[Neil]

Who was that Neil - obituary in the AF?

Hunter's Companion, call name Camp.

Should have given him to a shooting preserve hunter, planted birds he could find, it was on wild birds where he most often had to honor. He feared making a mistake. Trained his half-brother the same way at the same time that never went birdless, not once.

My point is that we too often expect too much too soon. Better a rough diamond than a highly polished stone, to steal an old saw.

[Sharon]

Thanks.

[jubal]

One thing never seems to be mentioned. The nature and disposition of the individual dog. We nearly ruined a very promising pup at 5 months by using the tried and true long leash and planted birds this year. He became very confused as to exactly what was expected of him. Instead of pointing, he would simply lie down when he scented the bird and refused to run after the flushed bird. A professional trainer took away the lead and encouraged the pup to chase the birds. i.e FIRST develop an intense interest in the birds, then worry about pointing. As I write, he is in South Dakota and beginning to point ringnecks (9 months old) with less and less stumbles and progressing nicely.

The point is, dogs are individualists and each may have his/her little quirks to be recognized.

In the same vain, we had a Llewellen that, if punished for an infraction, would walk by our side and refuse to hunt for a day or so, fearing another infraction. Since we hesitated to punish him, he ultimately became a butt-head, but a productive performer.

[will-kelly]

My point is that we too often expect too much too soon. Better a rough diamond than a highly polished stone, to steal an old saw.

80% of all gun dog issues are related to owner expectations.

[Bluesky2012]

My point is that we too often expect too much too soon. Better a rough diamond than a highly polished stone, to steal an old saw.

80% of all gun dog issues are related to owner expectations.

134% of statistics are made up on the spot.




If the pedigree is right, then I'd say your statistic is probably pretty true.

[mountaindogs]

The op can correct me, but I think the problem is not the dog rushing birds, but MISSING them if not seeing them? As in never finding a bird by smell, or rarely. Is this the case maybe?

[chrisss]

Sorry guys I have been really busy training my pup and school. Thanks for all the advices! My pup is now 1 year and 1 month. He's doing really good now. The problem was me as the trainer. I started putting him on chukars and after one or two flushes he picked it up quick and now points at every scent. He just needed to be exposed more. Now off to whoa training and steadiness training.

[Sharon]

Thanks. We always like to know how things went after somebody asks for help.