Which is tougher to do?

[Bluesky2012]

So after training a GSP to be a well rounded versatile dog (upland and ducks), I have now gotten into the retrieving world as well with my lab pup. So for those who have been around and have trained some dogs, what do yall think is the tougher to do? I think a well bred pup can end up picking up a duck, though breaking on shot and dropping it at your feet, with little to no training. Same with a pointer, it can find a bird and allow a hunter to get close enough for a shot often out of sheer genetics. So

For sake of the debate (and I know this is about like comparing apples to oranges) lets set the criteria:
Retriever: steady, and handles on land and water to a comfortable hunting distance.
Pointer: SWS, backs, and honors a retrieve.

Let the battle begin.

[Donnytpburge]

I have only worked with 1 lab, he was a natural and
Was easy to train basic obedience.

I have trained a bunch of pointers and a lot of them are
Pretty hard headed.

It's hard work no matter what dog your training as they all are a challenge!

Db

[Gooseman07]

What about the retrieving part for the pointer? You did say versatile pointer.

[gonehuntin']

With that criteria, the retriever will be far harder. When it comes to the handling, land and water, it can take a long time and lot of work to develop.

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve.

[birddogger]

With that criteria, the retriever will be far harder. When it comes to the handling, land and water, it can take a long time and lot of work to develop.

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve.

My thoughts exactly.

Charlie

[DonF]

I found that the easiest dog's to work were German Shorthairs. Almost like they train themselves. I've only trained aa few labs and just as hunting dog's. Obedience was a lot harder with them and ya gotta have that. Are you going for steady to shot on the lab also? I would. Friend of mine years ago had his lab jump out in front of the gun while he was shooting, killed his own dog!

[Bluesky2012]

Don, that's terrible. And I'd say to make a decent all around dog, a GSP can be very easy. In regards to making a handling retriever, I'd like to see someone get a GSP to that point. That'd be impressive.

[EvanG]

With that criteria, the retriever will be far harder. When it comes to the handling, land and water, it can take a long time and lot of work to develop.

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve.

I agree. Even with a willing, tractable dog, as Labs tend to be, to train one properly involves many steps, and requires lots of time. Since I love dog training I regard that as an upside to retrievers.

EvanG

[Bluesky2012]

I'd agree and still even if we expand the criteria a bit.

I'd say retriever side is tougher across the board. More technical, more building blocks required.

Reason I bring it up is I've had many people argue that "labs are leant to retrieve. How hard is it to make one go get a duck that fell 50 yards from you?". At first glance a pointer seems tougher but I believe retrievers are harder to build.

[birddog1968]

50 yard retrieve difficulty can run the gamut, from walk in the park to heck on a dog.

[CDN_Cocker]

I have no experience with pointing dogs but I think handling is extremely tough to teach. I struggle with it daily LOL

[gundogguy]

With that criteria, the retriever will be far harder. When it comes to the handling, land and water, it can take a long time and lot of work to develop.

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve.

I agree. Even with a willing, tractable dog, as Labs tend to be, to train one properly involves many steps, and requires lots of time. Since I love dog training I regard that as an upside to retrievers.

EvanG

+1 A solid retriever that works at high standards as described, provides many more pieces to the puzzle than a proper pointing dog. And who does not love a puzzle?
Hal

[bhulisa]

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve

What is natural about steady to wing and shot? Especially if the dog is expected to retrieve, as a versatile dog will be??

For the Retriever

handles on land and water to a comfortable hunting distance

is the key to me. If what is required is basic, functional handling for hunting, then I would argue that it is harder to develop the Pointer. I am assuming the Pointer will also be required to retrieve.

I'd be interested in Trekmoor's opinion I think retriever training is a bit simpler and less complicated in the UK and here in SA than it is in the States!

[Tanner01]

Like you I have both a GSP and a Lab. I found that they each have their challenges. I was working my short haired with the trainers lab doing steadiness drills in the upland field. My dog would point and she would bring in her lab to flush. Lab would sit to the shot, sit to the whistle, and sit to the flush. Handling on retrieves is one thing, training the full package is a whole different thing. Too many variables to make a blanket statement. Pointers may have instinct but a true Master hunter is refined to a level that requires real dedication from the trainer and cooperation from the dog.
If you are talking about a versatile dog trained to do everything and I had to pick a side I would say a GSP is harder. Labs are just so much more genetically programmed to retrieve and handle at the upper levels. Labs will out perform most of them on the more difficult handles.

[gonehuntin']

Much of what you list for a pointer is natural with the exception of the honoring on the retrieve

What is natural about steady to wing and shot? Especially if the dog is expected to retrieve, as a versatile dog will be??

Nobody said you didn't have to train the dog AT ALL, but steady to w/s is pretty easily done in the yard. I usually have my dogs steady to w/s/f in the field by 18 months.

You may get a retriever to handle with a lot of work at 18 months, but for every 15 minute session you spend with the pointer, you'll spend at least 4 with the retriever.

[Trekmoor]

If what is required is basic, functional handling for hunting, then I would argue that it is harder to develop the Pointer. I am assuming the Pointer will also be required to retrieve.

I'd be interested in Trekmoor's opinion I think retriever training is a bit simpler and less complicated in the UK and here in SA than it is in the States!

I hadn't intended to post into this thread for I find the question a bit difficult to answer ! I had labs for about 20 years before I first got a GSP. I trained my labs as rough shooting dogs , which means they hunted much the same as your "upland" dogs do but my labs were hunted at closer distances than you lads seem to favour and my labs were expected to quarter the ground fairly systematically. They were also expected to be steady to flush, shot and fall of game. I also used those dogs as beating dogs on large driven shoots and as picking-up dogs and as field trialing dogs. I had quite a bit of success because a well bred lab is a very versatile animal.

Few people in Britain have successfully gone from field trialing labs to field trialing H.P.R.'s such as G.S.P.'s , Brittanies etc. The same thing applies in reverse. The breeds seem to attract people with rather fixed or perhaps limited mindsets. The dogs might be versatile but sometimes the trainers are not !

I am of the opinion that a good G.S.P. should be just about capable of winning a Novice retriever trial ...but, of course, I am talking about Britain's type of retriever trial which to my mind is a bit more "natural" than the American type when it comes to the kind of work we normally use labs for. Our labs are expected to be good , keen retrievers from land or water but water work is a sort of secondary requirement to most of us.
Our G.S.P.'s are often not too keen on water, especially during the winter when it is most needed. I think labs beat GSP's pretty easily at water work.

I.M.O. I could train two or maybe three field trial standard labs for every one GSP I took up to a high field trial standard. The GSP was never intended to be "only" a retriever and it is a bit unfair to compare it to a quality lab in terms of "easiness" of retrieve training. This may be a bit different in America but is that due to the methods used to train the dogs whether labs or GSP's ???

Very few trainers in Britain use either F.F. or e-collars , until just a few years ago I'd guess many British trainers didn't even know what the letters "F.F." meant. Our training methods differ from yours when it comes to hunting too. I don't think we hunt our pointing dogs out to such long distances as some of yours do ........ 300 yards would be considered either a heck of a lot here or be thought of as too far out.
We also expect our dogs to quarter the ground fairly systematically, our dogs are not encouraged to "hunt out to objectives" as your trial dogs seem to be. In fact if a dog did that in a British trial it would be heavily downmarked for missing ground.

I always found it hard to send a G.S.P. left, right or further back after whistle stopping it at distance during retrieves. The reason it was difficult is a simple one. My dogs were taught never to "bore" straight into the wind while hunting and they did an awful lot of hunting. When I needed to direct a dog from the stop position at distance and have it run directly into the wind for an unseen retrieve perhaps 60 yards out , my dogs always wanted to quarter their way out to it. A good lab would have done the redirection (maybe ) with just one arm signal but the G.S.P. would probably have needed further stops to whistle and more arm and voice commands to keep it on a fairly straight line to the retrieve.

Steadiness is easier if the dog is at heel than at distance. A hunting lab is likely to be considerably further out than a GSP would be during flushes for the very simple reason that the GSP's flush will have been , hopefully, preceded by a point. A point allows the handler right up to the dog or at least allows the handler to "settle" the dog a bit prior to the flush. If you want a lab to hunt and flush and be steady to the game it flushes.... train it to be a spaniel.

As I said back at the start ,this is not an easy question to answer, not for me it isn't anyway ! Basically, if I expected a dog to do a lot of retrieving, especially from water, I'd get a lab. If I expected a dog to hunt on and on and on and hopefully point and retrieve occasionally too, I'd get a G.S.P.

I don't think there is a definitive answer to the question this thread poses.

Bill T.

[Waterdogs1]

I have trained retrievers for ever and at pretty high standard. My GSP shorthair is a break from all the yard work of training retrievers for me. So many more steps in training and yard work for a retriever, it is way more intense and many more steps to get to the point of running good blinds.If you just wanted a dog that is FF runs single marks it would be about the same but if you are wanting a dog to run good blinds and marks it is way more work for a retriever. That being said I love them both and with my shorthair I am still learning so much.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I would argue that training a pointer that "handles" while being 2 miles away is harder. But it all depends on what level you want. Do you want a natural boot licker that finds birds for the freezer or a National FC?

I never found it hard to train my Labs. They learn much more easily than any Pointer that I have worked with. That doesn't make them better, just different.

[gonehuntin']

I would argue that training a pointer that "handles" while being 2 miles away is harder. But it all depends on what level you want. Do you want a natural boot licker that finds birds for the freezer or a National FC?

I never found it hard to train my Labs. They learn much more easily than any Pointer that I have worked with. That doesn't make them better, just different.

Then you never trained one to the level you're comparing the pointer to "NFC." You're talking about multiple people training 7 days a week for years to get to that level.

I also detest calling a dog a boot licker if it doesn't hunt at 2 miles. I wouldn't own a dog that hunted a half a mile from me let alone two miles.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I would argue that training a pointer that "handles" while being 2 miles away is harder. But it all depends on what level you want. Do you want a natural boot licker that finds birds for the freezer or a National FC?

I never found it hard to train my Labs. They learn much more easily than any Pointer that I have worked with. That doesn't make them better, just different.

Then you never trained one to the level you're comparing the pointer to "NFC." You're talking about multiple people training 7 days a week for years to get to that level.

I also detest calling a dog a boot licker if it doesn't hunt at 2 miles. I wouldn't own a dog that hunted a half a mile from me let alone two miles.

Yes I have and I detest you questioning my opinion.

It doesn't take several people to do it.

[Trekmoor]

Do pointers handle while they are 2 miles away from their handlers ? Or even 1/2 a mile away from their handlers ? Mine's certainly don't , if my dogs are that far out they are out of control.

Bill T.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Do pointers handle while they are 2 miles away from their handlers ? Or even 1/2 a mile away from their handlers ? Mine's certainly don't , if my dogs are that far out they are out of control.

Bill T.

Depending on the terrain, yes they can. That's why GPS collars are allowed.

[birddog1968]

Well bred pointers that go with you at long range is a thing of beauty......if you've never seen it than I can understand the confusion. One must see a dog work naturally like that to understand.

[gonehuntin']

Well bred pointers that go with you at long range is a thing of beauty......if you've never seen it than I can understand the confusion. One must see a dog work naturally like that to understand.

I've never seen that; how in the world do they ever hear you at two miles to handle? Or are you using "handling" in a different sense than I know it@voice or whistle?

[gonehuntin']

Yes I have and I detest you questioning my opinion.

Cool. That makes us both detestable.

It doesn't take several people to do it.

There never has been nor ever will be, a retriever trained to a championship level without multiple people in the field.

[EvanG]

There never has been nor ever will be, a retriever trained to a championship level without multiple people in the field.

...at the very least!



Ask Chris Hatch, owner/trainer/handler of FC-AFC Teal Creek Patton's Saber who is currently running this year's National Amateur Retriever Championship.

EvanG

[Sharon]

Yes I have and I detest you questioning my opinion.

Cool. That makes us both detestable.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

ROFLMBO
Lots of people in the world have a problem with their opinion being questioned. I've never heard it called detestable. That's a new one.



[

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Yes I have and I detest you questioning my opinion.

Cool. That makes us both detestable.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

ROFLMBO
Lots of people in the world have a problem with their opinion being questioned. I've never heard it called detestable. That's a new one.

He used the word first. Sorry that I threw it back.



[

[DonF]

Yes I have and I detest you questioning my opinion.

Cool. That makes us both detestable.

It doesn't take several people to do it.

There never has been nor ever will be, a retriever trained to a championship level without multiple people in the field.

Key words here, championship level! I know it doesn't take more than one person to train a lab to a hunting level, did it a lot of years ago. I think the deal here is we are not saying the level of training. Also is it hard to train on type when that is all you've worked with? Go to the other type and there's gonna be a learning curve, it will appear harder until things start clicking in your mind. Example, I've never trained a lab for anything outer than a duck fetcher for myself and a couple other guy's. One thing I've never done is force to the pile. Shoot, I don't even know what that means! How many lab people have gone to a pointer and had a easy time of it the first time out? Both are different and I suspect there is similarities in the two also. I have watched some trial type labs work a few time's. I was impressed with a couple and the other had to be full blown farce. The bad one, I got the impression that the trainer was sending the dog on it's first blind out a couple hundred yards and the wouldn't have been able to do the exercise at two yds. Depending on who you are, I don't think one is any harder than the other, just different guidelines.

[ezzy333]

Do pointers handle while they are 2 miles away from their handlers ? Or even 1/2 a mile away from their handlers ? Mine's certainly don't , if my dogs are that far out they are out of control.

Bill T.

Depending on the terrain, yes they can. That's why GPS collars are allowed.

This isn't true. The GPS collars are allowed on the dog so you can find that 2 mile dog after you have declared it lost and out of contention.

I don't want to get into this debate that always seems to be that my dog ranges further than yours. I do know here on reasonable flat terrain and short cover you will have a problem seeing your dog at 1/2 a mile. And of course there are few field that are over a 1/2 mile long. Nothing wrong with a dog that ranges as far as you and the terrain will allow it but you will have to explain to all of us about this control thing when neither you or the dog can see, hear, or smell where you or the dog is. I think control is connected to communication in some regard and that is lost at those ranges. What you do hope for is that the dog knows what direction you were going or maybe it will try to find you to know where to go next. I admit I love the big running dogs when you have a place appropriate to hunt them but those areas are pretty much limited to the NW part of the country. But being primarily a hunter, a big ranging dog is pretty much useless unless you want to own a GPS, an e-collar, and a horse that can jump the occasional fences that always appear before the dog does. Bill, most hunters here in the states still think of a good dog pretty much as you described your Dogs in England. But our trials have continued to try and go a step further every so often so they can differentiate between two good dogs that range further than most want them to already. And too much of that decision is made on how far the dog runs and not how many birds does it find.

JMO
Ezzy

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Do pointers handle while they are 2 miles away from their handlers ? Or even 1/2 a mile away from their handlers ? Mine's certainly don't , if my dogs are that far out they are out of control.

Bill T.

Depending on the terrain, yes they can. That's why GPS collars are allowed.

This isn't true. The GPS collars are allowed on the dog so you can find that 2 mile dog after you have declared it lost and out of contention.

I don't want to get into this debate that always seems to be that my dog ranges further than yours. I do know here on reasonable flat terrain and short cover you will have a problem seeing your dog at 1/2 a mile. And of course there are few field that are over a 1/2 mile long. Nothing wrong with a dog that ranges as far as you and the terrain will allow it but you will have to explain to all of us about this control thing when neither you or the dog can see, hear, or smell where you or the dog is. I think control is connected to communication in some regard and that is lost at those ranges. What you do hope for is that the dog knows what direction you were going or maybe it will try to find you to know where to go next. I admit I love the big running dogs when you have a place appropriate to hunt them but those areas are pretty much limited to the NW part of the country. But being primarily a hunter, a big ranging dog is pretty much useless unless you want to own a GPS, an e-collar, and a horse that can jump the occasional fences that always appear before the dog does. Bill, most hunters here in the states still think of a good dog pretty much as you described your Dogs in England. But our trials have continued to try and go a step further every so often so they can differentiate between two good dogs that range further than most want them to already. And too much of that decision is made on how far the dog runs and not how many birds does it find.

JMO
Ezzy

I finally agree with you on most of these points but I use the GPS collars for training. I don't want to lose a dog whether it was during training or competition. The question still stands though.

[gonehuntin']

So, how do you handle. Dog at two miles?

[DonF]

So, how do you handle. Dog at two miles?

easy, you fax them your command's, at least that work's for me!

[gonehuntin']

So, how do you handle. Dog at two miles?

easy, you fax them your command's, at least that work's for me!

Impressive Don!! You teach them to read too!!!

[Bluesky2012]

Well bred pointers that go with you at long range is a thing of beauty......if you've never seen it than I can understand the confusion. One must see a dog work naturally like that to understand.

I've never seen that; how in the world do they ever hear you at two miles to handle? Or are you using "handling" in a different sense than I know it@voice or whistle?

This is what I want to know. What is your version of handling, because it has to be different than a lab handling on a blind or else this doesn't make any sense unless you are using flares and smoke signals at those distances.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Well bred pointers that go with you at long range is a thing of beauty......if you've never seen it than I can understand the confusion. One must see a dog work naturally like that to understand.

I've never seen that; how in the world do they ever hear you at two miles to handle? Or are you using "handling" in a different sense than I know it@voice or whistle?

This is what I want to know. What is your version of handling, because it has to be different than a lab handling on a blind or else this doesn't make any sense unless you are using flares and smoke signals at those distances.

I can only speak for me but I " sing" to them. They learn distance and direction and yes depending on the terrain, they hear you. That doesn't mean they are always that far out, the good ones check in without coming all the way in.

[EvanG]

I can only speak for me but I " sing" to them. They learn distance and direction and yes depending on the terrain, they hear you. That doesn't mean they are always that far out, the good ones check in without coming all the way in.

Boy, if ever a post cried for video this is it!

EvanG

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I can only speak for me but I " sing" to them. They learn distance and direction and yes depending on the terrain, they hear you. That doesn't mean they are always that far out, the good ones check in without coming all the way in.

Boy, if ever a post cried for video this is it!

EvanG

I will work on that but I find it hard to believe someone with your amount of experience doesn't understand.

[polmaise]

I ain't no Dean Martin so my singing would probably make a dog 4 miles away
On that 'Note',If there was no singing ,perhaps you could get closer to the game and the dog ?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I ain't no Dean Martin so my singing would probably make a dog 4 miles away
On that 'Note',If there was no singing ,perhaps you could get closer to the game and the dog ?

That wont win any Field Trials out west in the High Deserts.

[gonehuntin']

Brazos, maybe it's semantics. How do you define "handling"?

[EvanG]

I can only speak for me but I " sing" to them. They learn distance and direction and yes depending on the terrain, they hear you. That doesn't mean they are always that far out, the good ones check in without coming all the way in.

Boy, if ever a post cried for video this is it!

EvanG

I will work on that but I find it hard to believe someone with your amount of experience doesn't understand.

Nah, I just want to see it!

EvanG

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Brazos, maybe it's semantics. How do you define "handling"?

Your right, we aren't on the same page. I am strictly referring to Pointing breeds competing in open country. If They don't "handle" they get picked up and yes, 2 miles is extreme but out west they still have to learn where you are or they get lost. It takes ALOT of time to build that working relationship. The OP was right when he said "let the war begin". Too bad I cant resist war.

[Bluesky2012]

I'm still wondering though what the pointer guys define as handling?

[gonehuntin']

So kind of what I'm getting from this is that you can't see the dog, and the dog can't hear you, but as long as he checks back and keeps track of you, that is "handling"?

That must be where the disconnect is. I, personally, think of "handling" as a dog responding to a command, vocal, visual or whistle that has been issued by the handler-hunter.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think of it as "handling", but then you're involved in a game I don't play in.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

So kind of what I'm getting from this is that you can't see the dog, and the dog can't hear you, but as long as he checks back and keeps track of you, that is "handling"?

That must be where the disconnect is. I, personally, think of "handling" as a dog responding to a command, vocal, visual or whistle that has been issued by the handler-hunter.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think of it as "handling", but then you're involved in a game I don't play in.

I hear you. My Labs are "mechanical" which is what I believe you are thinking of "handling" but Pointers still have to "handle" or they wont get around clean. This is why the AKC separates Pros from Amateurs. If handling ability didn't matter then why is it separated? It is still handling but different then handling Retrievers.

I have Labs, GSP's and Vizslas. Each dog has a job and I wouldn't say one is harder to train but they all handle differently. And yes, they can hear you at incredible distance and if they handle they will listen. People often think that the dog doesn't hear you when in fact, they are just blowing you off.

[polmaise]

I ain't no Dean Martin so my singing would probably make a dog 4 miles away
On that 'Note',If there was no singing ,perhaps you could get closer to the game and the dog ?

That wont win any Field Trials out west in the High Deserts.

I hear ya , I'm just saying I won't win any singing competitions either
I do have stew in the pot though

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I ain't no Dean Martin so my singing would probably make a dog 4 miles away
On that 'Note',If there was no singing ,perhaps you could get closer to the game and the dog ?

That wont win any Field Trials out west in the High Deserts.

I hear ya , I'm just saying I won't win any singing competitions either
I do have stew in the pot though

Singing is a bad term. People fall over dead when I try to sing.....Luckily dogs love unconditionally..lol

[DonF]

Nothing I hated more in my trialing days than to get braced with a singer. They are rude and disruptive on the brace mate. No way do I believe a dog can hear you two miles out and, you have a dog two miles out in a trial in my part of the west, it is highly likely the dog has run off and without a tracking collar, your not gonna find it. When I judged if someone started singing, I shut them right up. If your dog is two miles out and the judge want's to see your dog, how does that work? In AKC, it used to be the dog couldn't be out of judgement for 1/5th of the brace if I remember right, that's six minutes. Lot of wide open country here but non you could let a dog get out ever one mile and still see it! Everyone that sings has a reason for doing it. Personally I think it's nothing more than distracting the judge from a dog that doesn't handle. But there used to be a lot more guy's do it in AKC than that do it now. Friend of mine was awful about it. He figured if he sang the dog could keep track of him. Well maybe so but when the judge say's show me your dog and you can't do it it becomes a problem.

[gonehuntin']

Don, when you talk of handling with a pointing trial dog, what does it mean to you?