Gun Shy Tips

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:47 pm

seeking gun shy tips. here's what I have read:

1) cap gun before dog's dinner
2) cap gun outside the front door before walking inside after dog's been alone a while
3) crate dog, blank pistol in the distance, high value food reward after each shot, gradually reducing distance
4) intro the gun properly, long distance .22 playing with dog, gradually reducing distance of each shot til you're over the dog & dog doesn't notice the shots, increase distance if dog stops playing, repeat with louder gun until you are shooting a 12ga over the dog's head without reaction from the dog
5) loud noises as a pup

My 1.5 year old female GSP started to shut down after the 1st shot so I will be trying everything I can to cure her of this. She is ignoring basic obedience until I turn up the collar & I hate having to do that. I must try, even if it never works, mainly for the dog's own peace of mind & safety. All input appreciated. I know this is a hard thing to cure & many say incurable.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:17 pm

The best way to expose a dog to gunfire that I have seen and used is to get the dog chasing a bird. When the dog is running hard after the bird fire the gun away for the dog and watch for a reaction. Then let them chase another one and don't fire, just watch.

If you see a reaction to the shot put the dog away and try it again in a week or so.

After you can to this without reaction, work your way up to bigger guns and closer distances.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:41 pm

This is one problem that I would enlist the help of a highly -thought -of pro to try to solve. You may get 100 ideas from others , but 88 of them could exacerbate the problem. This is not to say that I jump to a pro for everything , but gunshyness is serious business to fix - if it can be fixed. Some of the tips you listed are useful in introducing a dog to the gun , but not useful once the dog is gun shy.
................

"She is ignoring basic obedience until I turn up the collar " quote o.p

Is she ignoring you in the backyard or in the field or both?
This is another problem that needs to be dealt with. Imo having to turn up the collar regularly for basic obedience means the trainer is most likely doing something wrong.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:49 pm

If your dog is already sensitive...I would forget your list. Many of those things will work for a young dog to introduce gunfire. However, you already introduced the gunfire and have a sensitive dog that is on its way to becoming gunshy.

The only thing I would do is let the dog chase birds...encourage the dog to chase birds, even if it means going backward in training. Pigeons are great for this.

Then, when the dog is chasing with gusto...every time... go on to the next step. This may take a month or more. It ain't gonna happen in two sessions. Maybe ten or twelve sessions...maybe more.

THEN, when the dog is in full flat out chase, fire the gun. One time. Only one time. WATCH the dog's reaction. You could start out with a sub gauge like a 2 1/2" .410, but that doesn't matter as much as letting the dog get out there chasing a bird for all it is worth. The dog needs to make the connection that the bird and the gun are good together.

After you have fired the gun with the dog in full chase... several times over several separate sessions over a couple of weeks at least... and the dog shows NO hesitation, time for the next step.

At your earliest good and safe opportunity, kill a bird...with one shot... for the dog and let her have it. This will greatly help to encourage the good connection. If she tears the bird up, if she eats it...that is all fine. If she brings it back to you...Fantastic. Let her carry it for a while before you even try to ask for it. Remember, you are building desire and building confidence. Be positive.

Once the dog is past these initial stages, you are far from done. The dog will very likely still be quite sensitive and a barrage of shots can put her right back. You will still need to keep your bird encounters to one shot, probably for an entire season. That means no buddies with guns on the hunt. That means no trips to stocked grounds where there are multiple hunters. One shot. If you kill the bird ...great. If you miss... wait for it to land and go hunt it up again. One shot.

A gun sensitive dog can be brought back with some work. A truly gun shy dog, one that runs off and hides, is a really tough problem and you most likely will never get that dog back.

Good luck and have patience. You're gonna need it.

RayG

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:04 pm

Ray's advice is real similar to that I would give you. We've had one really bad gunshy dog - would go running back to my husband and cower behind him if we fired a shot (this was at about 70 yards with a capgun while we were throwing a dead bird). We ended up sending him to Perfection Kennels to have Jon work him through it. It took about a month total (maybe a bit more). Jon let him chase birds and would fire when he was in full chase - even had to let him catch birds (which is a cardinal sin most of the time). He was a mess. Lots of repetition, lots of birds later and patience (moving closer only when he was ready) and now he's a duck retrieving fool. Loves the gun when you're hunting. Still isn't so happy about shots unrelated to hunting though.

Lots of patience, lots of birds, lots of distance between you and the dog.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:09 pm

+2 SetterNut

SetterNut wrote:The best way to expose a dog to gunfire that I have seen and used is to get the dog chasing a bird. When the dog is running hard after the bird fire the gun away for the dog and watch for a reaction. Then let them chase another one and don't fire, just watch.

If you see a reaction to the shot put the dog away and try it again in a week or so.

After you can to this without reaction, work your way up to bigger guns and closer distances.

Food and gun fire have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

jwnissen · Post by **jwnissen** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:17 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:+2 SetterNut
SetterNut wrote:The best way to expose a dog to gunfire that I have seen and used is to get the dog chasing a bird. When the dog is running hard after the bird fire the gun away for the dog and watch for a reaction. Then let them chase another one and don't fire, just watch.

If you see a reaction to the shot put the dog away and try it again in a week or so.

After you can to this without reaction, work your way up to bigger guns and closer distances.

Food and gun fire have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

My shorthair was gunshy and the above mentioned way was how she was broke. I would seek professional help. He made her get really excited about birds and within 3 weeks he was shooting over her. Of course, there were a few more steps than that. Also, Where are you located so maybe someone in your area can recommend someone to help you.

Good luck and be careful

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:06 am

Well, the method I use (or lack of )and my old man before me is to just go hunting with 2 experienced dogs and just take 1 or 2 pups about 4 to 6 months old to tag along,
Did they react to gunfire ? Of cause they did, but it didn't take long before they figured out that Bang= birds falling from the sky and would run like crazy to pick up a dead or injured bird
I've never had a gunshy dog in the 35+ years of hunting with dogs , lucky I guess

Cheers

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:15 am

With chasing a bird, if done right you often won't see ANY reaction. The slightest reaction means stop right there to me....build more desire and bird love and try again later date.

OP- Lay off the pressure, build pressure free desire in the dog , nothing but fun....maybe even let the dog catch and maul a quail or two....more prey drive and desire for birds is your friend at this point.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:27 am

Soarer31 wrote:Well, the method I use (or lack of )and my old man before me is to just go hunting with 2 experienced dogs and just take 1 or 2 pups about 4 to 6 months old to tag along,
Did they react to gunfire ? Of cause they did, but it didn't take long before they figured out that Bang= birds falling from the sky and would run like crazy to pick up a dead or injured bird
I've never had a gunshy dog in the 35+ years of hunting with dogs , lucky I guess

Cheers

I do it "properly" now, but as a kid growing up, I did pretty much as you are saying and never had a gunshy dog. But then, they weren't high priced top pedigreed dogs either. I don't want to take any chance of ruining a potentially top notch dog.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:47 am

Take him to a known pro.

Much on your list is rubbish, some harmless but of no value.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:08 am

What makes anyone think shooting a gun around food, a door, etc would accomplish anything good? You're trying to build an association, not just a "tolerance". We need to make a sticky that explains how and why to use guns and birds together, and not all the other crap ideas like mentioned above or the old "take em to the clay range and see how they do". Biggest issues is you didn't use birds, and you waited till the dog was older. Use birds now and you may be able to solve it. Gun shyness is man made. You failed to build an association, now try and back up and actually build an association, not a tolerance.

I hate these threads because in all the good programs and all over this forum people tell the right way to associate gunfire. People either chose to follow bad advice or decide to go lazy and not use birds, and were back to this. Seriously, there should be a sticky that new users must read about how to properly condition to gunfire. It's a pet peeve of mine because people ruin good dogs frequently because of this and it's unnecessary. A gun-shy dog will now miss out on the most fun it will ever have because of poor advice or lazy tactics.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:13 am

Gun shyness is a bad one and you have done just about everything to insure the dog will be gun shy. As others have said, use birds to cure it IF the dog is birdy and likes to chase birds. If not, you're in real trouble.

In a sense gun shyness is man made and in a sense it isn't. I believe that most gun shy dogs are genetically defective animals. You can take 100 dogs and if they're well bred, not even worry about breaking them to the gun. Then one will head for the hills at a loud noise. It is mainly in the temperament of the dog, though man can certainly make a dog gunshy.

It's really too complex a program to discuss here and you're going to get a lot of worthless information. I agree with all the advice to get the dog to a pro. First thing a good one will do is tell you if the dog is even worth the investment. A lot of pro's won't take a gun shy dog because the outcome is so uncertain. There is a fella on here that guarantees he can train one. He is the only one I know of.

I doubt you can do it yourself; get help.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:10 am

In a sense gun shyness is man made and in a sense it isn't. I believe that most gun shy dogs are genetically defective animals. You can take 100 dogs and if they're well bred, not even worry about breaking them to the gun. Then one will head for the hills at a loud noise. It is mainly in the temperament of the dog, though man can certainly make a dog gunshy.

Exactly right!! I have always said this and have had many people disagree with me on it. Very well said.

Charlie

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:29 am

http://k911dogtraining.info/training/be ... n-shyness/

For reinforcers, obviously add birds to the list along with food, etc.; and the link is in some ways just a restatement of some of the preceding posts.

I don't disagree with the posts that say a pro might best address this. But, relative to other issues with a dog, this is conceptually simple. But, time-consuming and requiring a lot of patience.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:19 am

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Since it's too late for prevention, it's time for a cure and a well qualified pro is your best bet.

.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:22 am

birddogger wrote:
In a sense gun shyness is man made and in a sense it isn't. I believe that most gun shy dogs are genetically defective animals. You can take 100 dogs and if they're well bred, not even worry about breaking them to the gun. Then one will head for the hills at a loud noise. It is mainly in the temperament of the dog, though man can certainly make a dog gunshy.

Exactly right!! I have always said this and have had many people disagree with me on it. Very well said.

Charlie

Yup. The dog's that I've tried to cure, have ALL been very skittish, not mentally well balanced dogs. They usually have multiple problems.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:27 am

Nutmeg247 wrote:http://k911dogtraining.info/training/be ... n-shyness/

For reinforcers, obviously add birds to the list along with food, etc.; and the link is in some ways just a restatement of some of the preceding posts.

I don't disagree with the posts that say a pro might best address this. But, relative to other issues with a dog, this is conceptually simple. But, time-consuming and requiring a lot of patience.

I would consider that post to be counter productive to curing the issue. The worst thing you can do for a dog that is afraid or leery of something is to comfort him. Ignore it and the dog learns to ignore it. Comfort the dog and he runs to you for protection. There are also many degrees of gun shyness. A dog that simply cringes when a shot is fired is sensitive to noise and can be worked with. One that takes off across the prairie at the shot and you pick him up quaking in a culvert is another matter and in my view, near impossible to work with.

This is why a lot of pros won't work with one. A truly gun shy dog, if even fixable, requires too much time. You'd have to charge quadruple your rate to work with him.

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:46 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote:http://k911dogtraining.info/training/be ... n-shyness/

For reinforcers, obviously add birds to the list along with food, etc.; and the link is in some ways just a restatement of some of the preceding posts.

I don't disagree with the posts that say a pro might best address this. But, relative to other issues with a dog, this is conceptually simple. But, time-consuming and requiring a lot of patience.
I would consider that post to be counter productive to curing the issue. The worst thing you can do for a dog that is afraid or leery of something is to comfort him. Ignore it and the dog learns to ignore it. Comfort the dog and he runs to you for protection. There are also many degrees of gun shyness. A dog that simply cringes when a shot is fired is sensitive to noise and can be worked with. One that takes off across the prairie at the shot and you pick him up quaking in a culvert is another matter and in my view, near impossible to work with.

This is why a lot of pros won't work with one. A truly gun shy dog, if even fixable, requires too much time. You'd have to charge quadruple your rate to work with him.

Regarding taking a lot of time, I agree, and likewise for there being both nature and nurture elements.

Regarding ignoring the dog's anxiety, I actually agree to an extent, even if it sounds like I'm contradicting myself. Nervous, high-strung owners tend to have nervous dogs, and mellow owners tend to have laid-back dogs. Comforting the dog like he's experiencing trauma I agree is counter-productive. Making nice things available to the dog (birds, food, etc.) and having the dog come to associate gunfire with those nice things is different from making a "poor baby" fuss and acting like the dog has a right to be terrified. One is good counter-conditioning, one I agree is rewarding fear. Without counter-conditioning of some sort, you'd be left with only desensitization to address the issue, which would make for a longer road. There is an issue in terms of birds, though, of not causing the dog to blink birds by associating them with gunfire, but I don't think the approach recommended in this thread that uses birds runs that risk, assuming you use common sense and don't muzzle-blast the dog.

If you look at protocols for curing a wide range of similar fears, dogs or people, they tend to use both desensitization and counterconditioning. But, it is an interesting training nut, for sure.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:21 pm

Replies to the original post numbers 2/3/10/12 ,give all the advice required (imo) ..having more than a few for rehabilitation.
Post 18 is on the ball of reality.
I have had and cured/masked the issue for only three in thirty years these ones took over a year

...............
Quickest way to ruin a good gundog is to take it to where you want to go before It's ready to go (no matter the age) ...I've had 6 month old pups that are ready and 18 month old ones that ain't .That doesn't mean the young un's better or the older ones slow. It just means they ain't ready

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:36 pm

polmaise wrote:Replies to the original post numbers 2/3/10/12 ,give all the advice required (imo) ..having more than a few for rehabilitation.
Post 18 is on the ball of reality.
I have had and cured/masked the issue for only three in thirty years these ones took over a year
...............
Quickest way to ruin a good gundog is to take it to where you want to go before It's ready to go (no matter the age) ...I've had 6 month old pups that are ready and 18 month old ones that ain't .That doesn't mean the young un's better or the older ones slow. It just means they ain't ready

Exactly. Well said ! I'm saving that post.

(I think I was #2. What did I win?")

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:44 pm

Sharon wrote: (I think I was #2. What did I win?")

Nothing. But The praise is often forgotten from many

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:12 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:I hate these threads

I knew many would loath my post, but I searched before posting. The search feature on this website produced limited info at best. Maybe this post will correct that in the future. My 1-5 examples in the OP describe everything which I have heard of about gunfire & dogs, but I know there's more out there. Y'all've already proved it above.

Bluesky2012 wrote:What makes anyone think shooting a gun around food, a door, etc would accomplish anything good? You're trying to build an association

I introduced the gun using #4 & #5 in my original post. Maybe we started too young with #4. The dog was about probably 3 months old when we tried #4. She never flinched. I thought she was good to go. Then, the 1st time she heard a .22 pistol rapid fire, she freaked out, hiding, ignoring commands she always obeys. Then the next time she heard a bunch of fireworks (last July 4th maybe?), she freaked out again. I have not tried #1, #2, or #3. The logic behind those 3 tips, I assume, is to build positive association with the gun. The dog likes food, and the dog likes me, use that as an advantage...sounds logical enough? Has nothing to do with the food or door, it's the dogs attitude brought on by eating the food or by me walking through the door after she's been home alone bored while I was at work. I'm not worried about the dog becoming a champion hunter, passing a hunt test, or ever really doing any upland hunting at all for that matter. My main focus is to TRY to cure her or at least reduce her gunshyness because it poses a safety risk for the dog if she is ignoring fundamental commands she would otherwise never disregard. I appreciate the advice about hiring someone, but unfortunately it's just not an option. I am going to have to live with it if I can't cure it myself, hence the thread. Thank you to all who have responded. I appreciate all the knowledge & opinion of every type. Reading everyone's mind on here really helps me to form my own understanding of how to best train MY dog.

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:35 pm

chevyrulz wrote:...I knew many would loath my post, but I searched before posting. I appreciate all the knowledge & opinion of every type. Reading everyone's mind on here really helps me to form my own understanding of how to best train MY dog.

Great that you are looking to work with her on this, particularly if sending her out isn't an option at the moment.

Just a quick thought regarding the e-collar -- you may want to avoid any type of collar or other correction while working on the gunshyness. Particularly since you were having to use higher levels of stim. Just like dogs can associate that type of correction with other dogs if they are fear-aggressive, she could well associate the collar corrections as one more unpleasant thing happening once she hears gunfire. Any shutting down in this context just is a sign to dial back on what she's being exposed to, and isn't disobedience the way you'd normally view it.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:50 pm

I'm curious, was or is this dog out of good field trial blood lines?

What makes me curious is that you seem not to care if the dog hunts or not?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:06 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I'm curious, was or is this dog out of good field trial blood lines?

What makes me curious is that you seem not to care if the dog hunts or not?

Hmmm? ! I would conclude from the OP'S first post that an understanding of basics of the tools and the dog in front of them have not yet been resolved. Never mind history behind it or what it's likely to find in front of it .

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:19 pm

The history of the dog is a reliable predictor of the outcome of the dog and is a strong indicator of the steps that should or can be followed to resolve the issue. If in fact it can be resolved. For instance, if the dog has absolutely no interest in birds, different steps are taken than if the dog is a bird crazy machine. Steps taken for a shy and skittish dog differ from steps taken with a bold dog.

So yes, history is very important.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:25 pm

Of course there are Millions of dogs that have history of champions that are just plain dud!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:17 pm

Interesting comment Robert. In this country I have seen very, very, few dogs that if out of reputable breeding, don't produce at least decent gun dogs.

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:49 pm

polmaise wrote: ...............
Quickest way to ruin a good gundog is to take it to where you want to go before It's ready to go (no matter the age) ...I've had 6 month old pups that are ready and 18 month old ones that ain't .That doesn't mean the young un's better or the older ones slow. It just means they ain't ready

Agree, however there are some exceptions to this rule, in my opinion, it's more beneficial to take advantage of a pups ( 3,4 months old) fool hardiness and where the pups curiosity over rides its fears, in where a older dog is a little more hesitant and cautious

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:35 pm

Agreed but we were speaking of training PRESSURE.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:16 am

chevyrulz wrote: I introduced the gun using #4 & #5 in my original post. Maybe we started too young with #4. The dog was about probably 3 months old when we tried #4. She never flinched. I thought she was good to go. Then, the 1st time she heard a .22 pistol rapid fire, she freaked out, hiding, ignoring commands she always obeys. Then the next time she heard a bunch of fireworks (last July 4th maybe?), she freaked out again. I have not tried #1, #2, or #3. The logic behind those 3 tips, I assume, is to build positive association with the gun. The dog likes food, and the dog likes me, use that as an advantage...sounds logical enough?

A couple things, that is not a logical progression. Dogs do not generalize. A dog can be fine with a gun, but pop a balloon and it scares it. They do not associate like that so it does no good. Understand pavlov and that is how you can develop an association for this. Dog hears bell, knows food is coming, dogs mouth waters. You want a dog to hear a gun, knows a bird is coming...

It's not an age issue. You can be shooting a 12 guage over a 3 month old if properly done. It's probably 2 issues that got ya. Likely the "random loud noises" that you used likely created a subtle fear within the dog, not conditioning, so the dog was already nervous just didn't show signs. Your dog also was probably not birdy and confident enough prior to conditioning. Mix those issues together and here's where we are. Back up, more birds, gradually bring in a shotgun. Also I personally am not a fan of a 22 being used. It has a sharp sound. I like a 12 gauge, just starting at a further distance.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:17 am

Chevy,

On another note - the dog won't like fireworks or loud sounds even if you get it to tolerate or even look forward to gunfire. They are not the same. I had a GSP that was terrified of fireworks but LOVED the gun. Concentrate on training the dog that the gun=birds. Not desensitizing at all - training the pup that when the gun goes off, good things happen. This is absolutely not the same as desensitizing a dog or training it to ignore loud noises. You'll likely never have a dog that tolerates loud noises well, but you can probably have a dog that likes the gun because it produces birds (if the dog is bird crazy that is).

Good luck with the pup.

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:55 am

gonehuntin' wrote:I'm curious, was or is this dog out of good field trial blood lines?

Yes, hunt & field awards. She has NFC among other awards throughout her sire/dam bloodlines. She's as birdy as they come. She will chase live birds for days if I let her. In fact, she'll chase anything that moves initially, but she's young. She's got a keen eye forlive critters like squirrels, even bugs. She loses interest quickly if it's not a bird though.

gonehuntin' wrote:What makes me curious is that you seem not to care if the dog hunts or not?

I don't do upland hunting because I don't have a place to do it. I would LOVE if I can teach this dog to enjoy early teal season, dove hunting, & the not-so-cold days of duck season. I would LOVE to see her attain MH, but realistically that's not my goal. She's my 1st dog, ever, I'm in my late 20s, so obviously I have made tons of mistakes in her training. The 1st time she heard thunder as a pup, she hid between my legs. These days she ignores it. I did "all the right things" but probably in all the wrong ways leading towards becoming gunshy. I don't, in my novice opinion, believe she's full on gunshy yet & that's the purpose of the OP.

Nutmeg247 wrote:you may want to avoid any type of collar or other correction while working on the gunshyness. Particularly since you were having to use higher levels of stim. Just like dogs can associate that type of correction with other dogs if they are fear-aggressive, she could well associate the collar corrections as one more unpleasant thing happening once she hears gunfire. Any shutting down in this context just is a sign to dial back on what she's being exposed to, and isn't disobedience the way you'd normally view it.

10-4, I understand & agree whole heartedly.

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:04 pm

polmaise wrote:I would conclude from the OP'S first post that an understanding of basics of the tools and the dog in front of them have not yet been resolved. Never mind history behind it or what it's likely to find in front of it .

A misunderstanding. The first time this happened, I needed her to listen because she was in the field not visible to other shooters. Once I turned up the collar from 20% to 40% & applied more than just a nick (after vibrate produced no reaction), about 2 seconds of continuous pressure & she heeded my command to "come" without yelping. Most recently when it happened, she heard a single distant firework or .22 as she was 2/3 to a blind retrieve from land to water. She was not wearing her collar. She turned around 15 or so yds from the mark, & swam back to shore, trotted past me to the center of the field & stood there as if to say 'it's time to go home" ignoring my command "come" as well as hand signals for come. I walked towards her commanding again come with hand signal for come & nothing, then I walked more towards her & jogged to the side coaxing her to come & she came to heel following me without further command. It's like she doesn't trust anything when she's in "gunshy mode". This most recent instance, prompted the post. I figure it's now or never, and I wanna do it right. Many on this forum are very knowledgeable & helpful. To everyone who has responded, thank you so much for your posts. I sincerely appreciate the overwhelming amount of help offered here.

about 5x per week, we throw marks or practice blind retrieves & hand signals for 5 or 10 minutes to upkeep her formal training we started about age 6 months. We started at 8 weeks doing fun retrieves to foster drive. At 9 weeks I handed her a dead green winged teal from the day's hunt & she held it proudly & softly for like 15 minutes until I finishing filming & took it back. That was her 1st feather.

I will try to find a source for pigeons (legally)

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:07 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Interesting comment Robert. In this country I have seen very, very, few dogs that if out of reputable breeding, don't produce at least decent gun dogs.

If 100 pups are bred from good stock and only 10 are either in competition or worked in the field,then those breeders or breed lines are 'seen' to be 90% unsuccessful ?
If 100 breeders of reputable lines breed 100 pups each and they also have the same outlet then that success rate 'In competition or in the field' becomes rather small ! was my point

Three of the top breeding line kennels here have and work on this equation ,but it can be marketed to show a 99% success rate for the 1 in 10 that are recorded 'in competition or in the field'

..If you know what I mean ?

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:14 pm

Bottom Line.

ONLY way to introduce gunfire is with BIRDS. Any other way is a gamble. These are BIRD DOGS!!!

Not Shooting Range dogs. Not Food dogs. :roll: :roll:

I agree there should be a sticky on this. It is So Important and So Easy to do it Right with Birds!!

With out Birds the fool will always be parting with his money to fix his lazy mistake and ruin a good BIRD DOG.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:16 pm

chevyrulz wrote:The first time this happened, I needed her to listen because she was in the field not visible to other shooters. Once I turned up the collar from 20% to 40% & applied more than just a nick (after vibrate produced no reaction), about 2 seconds of continuous pressure & she heeded my command to "come" without yelping. Most recently when it happened, she heard a single distant firework or .22 as she was 2/3 to a blind retrieve from land to water. She was not wearing her collar. She turned around 15 or so yds from the mark, & swam back to shore, trotted past me to the center of the field & stood there as if to say 'it's time to go home" ignoring my command "come" as well as hand signals for come. I walked towards her commanding again come with hand signal for come & nothing, then I walked more towards her & jogged to the side coaxing her to come & she came to heel following me without further command. This most recent instance, prompted the post. I figure it's now or never, and I wanna do it right.

So how did You CC the dog?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:28 pm

chevyrulz wrote: My 1.5 year old female GSP started to shut down after the 1st shot so I will be trying everything I can to cure her of this. She is ignoring basic obedience until I turn up the collar & I hate having to do that.

Perhaps going back to Basic obedience before using the collar would be a 'Re-Start'?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:35 pm

You know Chevy, my first thought is that all this dog has to do is associate birds with gunfire and the reward it brings and you're home clear. I don't think she's gun shy, she just doesn't understand the loud crack. A pistol is a VERY loud sound. I always held them behnd my back to muffle the noise. A .22 riffle is better becuase you can direct the blast away from the dog. I think a shotgun actually bothers a dog less than a .22 pistol. I used to use a single shot, shot gun with a primer only in the shell so the dog got used to the sight of the long gun.

Just back off of the gun, get her chasing AND CATCHING clipwings, and you'll have it made. After she's a total bird-a-holic, have a helper throw a clip wing 100 yards out and let her run for it. Just as she's putting her head down for it, shoot the gun. She'll be so riveted on the bird she won't even notice. If she does notice, ignore her.

Once a dog can associate the reason for the loud noise (bird in mouth), your problems will be over.

She has the genetics and the drive and she's just gun-leary now, not gun shy. I do think you'll be successful with her.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:40 pm

polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Interesting comment Robert. In this country I have seen very, very, few dogs that if out of reputable breeding, don't produce at least decent gun dogs.

polmaise wrote: If 100 pups are bred from good stock and only 10 are either in competition or worked in the field,then those breeders or breed lines are 'seen' to be 90% unsuccessful ?.

Nope. I would see it as 100% successful; the rest were never given a chance.

I can tell you this: In all the years I worked as a pro, even at large kennels where we ran 120 dogs at a time in training, it was virtually unheard of to send a dog home because you could not make at least a hunting dog of it.

I think you vastly UNDERESTIMATE how many good dogs there are and how many there could be out there.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:58 pm

I was talking about 'pups' sold not dogs in training 'Gonehuntin' . My remarks are conclusive to the knowledge in my country. There absolutely is 'Probably' more good dogs than We' or all know about ,but they are not 'Known'

:roll:

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:23 pm

polmaise wrote: So how did You CC the dog?

Carefully & correctly after reading a lot about it. Collar is a Dogtra 200NCP Gold. We started with vibrate using sit. Command sit, dog obeys 1st five or so, then refuses, hit the vibrate button, dog wonders what happened, remind dog to sit with one hand pushing back on chest & other hand pushing down on her back, dog sits, praise dog. Once she figured out that obedience avoided vibrate, time to figure out her stim level. I inched up the stim 5% at a time til she gave a leash tug reaction to the nick button, took about 20% if memory serves. Reassured her with praise that all was well once she was able to feel the nick stim & obviously wondering what it was. Then, repeat same process as vibrate using nick stim. Quickly she realized obedience avoided stim. Practiced this with other commands over time. It's amazing how her state of mind affects how much stim is required & how much the required stim varies for a particular situation. I've seen her yelp at 15% & ignore 40% depending on the situation & it wasn't the collar loose or malfunctioning.

chevyrulz · Post by **chevyrulz** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:34 pm

thanks again y'all, things are looking up already, and I ain't even started yet!

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:06 am

chevyrulz wrote:
polmaise wrote: So how did You CC the dog?
Carefully & correctly after reading a lot about it. Collar is a Dogtra 200NCP Gold. We started with vibrate using sit. Command sit, dog obeys 1st five or so, then refuses, hit the vibrate button, dog wonders what happened, remind dog to sit with one hand pushing back on chest & other hand pushing down on her back, dog sits, praise dog. Once she figured out that obedience avoided vibrate, time to figure out her stim level. I inched up the stim 5% at a time til she gave a leash tug reaction to the nick button, took about 20% if memory serves. Reassured her with praise that all was well once she was able to feel the nick stim & obviously wondering what it was. Then, repeat same process as vibrate using nick stim. Quickly she realized obedience avoided stim. Practiced this with other commands over time. It's amazing how her state of mind affects how much stim is required & how much the required stim varies for a particular situation. I've seen her yelp at 15% & ignore 40% depending on the situation & it wasn't the collar loose or malfunctioning.

Yeah that's kinda but not really collar conditioning. Your dog is likely still very confused about the collar and doesn't understand the pressure. You tried to do a more "retriever-esque" CC style, but doesn't look like you did solid or proper formal obedience before it I help it transfer over well. I'd redo yard work (won't take long) then go back and CC again. I think you'd see a nice difference. Oh and don't use vibrate. It's like a nagging woman. Just use stimulation for instances where the dog refuses you. Vibrate is worthless.