New Trainer, New Dog. Guidance appreciated!

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:25 pm

Hey everybody. First, this is my second attempt at posting this thread. I posted it last night, and it appeared briefly, but seems to have vanished. This time I will copy and paste it to a word doc in case the gremlins find it.

A little about me:

I've owned three dogs in my life, all Labradors. The first two came to our family before I took up hunting and lived long happy lives as family pets. They were trained with basic obedience using treats - masters of sit, stay, lay down, play dead, shake, etc.

We lost Max and Sam a little over two years ago and haven't felt right about adding another dog to our family until now.

We adopted Moses (named for John Moses Browning) last Saturday and he comes with a sound pedigree of hunting bloodlines. The only issue is that he spent the first 5 months of his life free-roaming a two acre fenced lot with his mom and sister. Never had a collar, never been on a lead. He is "green" if ever there has been a green pup.

I've never trained a working dog so this is all new to me. I've been introduced to some online resources (including this forum and several youtube videos) but Moses appears to be a special case.

He is mellow and submissive. I haven't spoken a harsh word to him hardly and he rolls onto his back with his front paws in classic "please dont kick me" position and once I start rubbing his belly, he warms up and says hello.

I've been focusing on basic obedience and he is picking up sit and stay very very well, both with treats (mostly from the kids) and without (from me...but sometimes I give him a treat...every once in a while).

Where he is really struggling is on the lead. He does NOT want to heel. He doesn't really fight against the lead, like I said - he is very mellow...instead he lays down and calmly lays there as if the thought of walking on a lead or heeling is punishment. I give him a few firm but not rough tugs on the lead and eventually he hops up and walks with me, but sometimes I really have to jerk on it to get him on his feet. We took him on a neighborhood walk on a longer leash and he walked with or slightly ahead of me but when it is just he and I on a 5-6 foot rope lead in the back yard, he is not having it.

Again, I want to stress that he isn't twisting his head or fighting with the lead...he more or less goes limp like "Oh man, this is freaking me out and I'm scared."

I'm praising him like crazy when he stands up and walks with me, and his tail wags when I do so, but we usually dont last 4 minutes before I am so worried I'm doing more harm than good.

I bet that if I used treats with the heeling and led walking that he would do better, but I dont know if that is frowned upon so I have not done it.

Any special advice for such a dog? Again, I think he will ultimately be a good retriever, but I have a few months of zero-programming to un-do. Our previous dogs were being obedience trained from 8 weeks. This guy seems like the smartest dumb kid in class, if that makes sense. Full of unfocused potential.

He chases fun bumpers and even brings them back when I throw them, so the instinct is there. I just need to refine it I think.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:50 am

It was also suggested that I get a couple live pigeons to get him fired up and spark his prey drive. I have a couple places in town I could trap them and am happy to do so, but once I have them, what's the best way to use them?

Card or tether them and let him chase them?

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:52 am

Hey Wolfeman,

Here is a video I did a few years ago. Shows how to get a young dog walking with you and not pulling. I'ts about claiming space. The way a dog sees it. This is not obedience and it's not a heel command. The results are much better.

http://youtu.be/I3FEQcCY1E0

I can send you a leash if you like or you can make something up. If it works for you, let me know and I'll show you the next step.

Good Luck.

Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:21 am

Excellent system, well explained. I have no doubt it will work.

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:08 am

That looks phenomenal. I would be happy to purchase a leash but if you are saying I can just as easily make one from a basic nylon kennel lead then I think I'll start there. What do you use as the slider/stopper?

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:19 am

It sounds to me like he has never worn a collar or been on a leash and he's freaking out 'because something's got him'. I would tie him out for short periods of time. Pound a stake in the ground and put a short chain on it. Attach his collar to the chain and leave. He will soon realize that he is being restrained but nothing 's going to hurt him. Within a few sessions he should figure out that he an move around a little and his fear of a collar and leash should start to go away. I would do this for an hour or so each day until things started to improve.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:18 pm

"Bet that if I used treats with the heeling and led walking that he would do better, but I dont know if that is frowned upon so I have not done it." quote
In this situation I would do that for sure.
(We 've just been posting in a thread on heeling , but I wouldn't recommend any of those suggestions for this dog.)

Was he abused in the past?

Go very slowly , this is going to take time for him to trust you .( Is he 5 months now?)

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:38 pm

WolfeMan wrote:I bet that if I used treats with the heeling and led walking that he would do better, but I don't know if that is frowned upon so I have not done it.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

The decision about what you do is not a matter of whether or not it's frowned upon. It's a matter of its being fair and effective over the long term. Treat training is a fine way to get a young dog started on any general commands. It's not going to be all you should do because it won't provide the degree of reliability a gundog needs. But it is absolutely a viable way to get started.

Having patiently taught the fundamental obedience commands, and having allowed ample time for the pup to mature, you then need to formalize that training by proceeding through formal Basics. Here's how that looks:

The components of Basics in order

1) “Here”
2) “Heel & Sit”
3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8 ) Single tee
9) Double tee
10) Water tee with Swim-by

Are you familiar with what these skills are and how they are done?

EvanG

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:43 pm

Evan, I am familiar with 1-5 in theory and some practice. 6-10 not so much.

Looking to learn and not in a rush. I want to make this a long-term investment of time.

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:31 pm

Higgins wrote:Hey Wolfeman,

Here is a video I did a few years ago. Shows how to get a young dog walking with you and not pulling. I'ts about claiming space. The way a dog sees it. This is not obedience and it's not a heel command. The results are much better.

http://youtu.be/I3FEQcCY1E0

I can send you a leash if you like or you can make something up. If it works for you, let me know and I'll show you the next step.

Good Luck.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Alright, I can't find anybody local that sells those slip leads and when I asked at one pet store they looked at me as if I had asked for dog abuse tips.

So, can I buy one from you?

I bet I can find one on amazon if I looked. Hmm...

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:22 pm

I rigged a slip lead with some woven nylon rope and gave it a shot. Results were mixed. Moses laid down and put his ears down and looked afraid a couple times. How firm of a correction tug should I give and how long should I wait for him to stand? If I walk forward and keep the lead tight it clinches down and he whines. If I insist I'll be dragging him. Is that ok?

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:01 pm

"We adopted Moses (named for John Moses Browning) last Saturday and he comes with a sound pedigree of hunting bloodlines. The only issue is that he spent the first 5 months of his life free-roaming a two acre fenced lot with his mom and sister. Never had a collar, never been on a lead. He is "green" if ever there has been a green pup.
I've never trained a working dog so this is all new to me. I've been introduced to some online resources (including this forum and several youtube videos) but Moses appears to be a special case.
He is mellow and submissive. I haven't spoken a harsh word to him hardly and he rolls onto his back with his front paws in classic "please dont kick me" position and once I start rubbing his belly, he warms up and says hello.
I've been focusing on basic obedience and he is picking up sit and stay very very well, both with treats (mostly from the kids) and without (from me...but sometimes I give him a treat...every once in a while).
Where he is really struggling is on the lead. He does NOT want to heel. He doesn't really fight against the lead, like I said - he is very mellow...instead he lays down and calmly lays there as if the thought of walking on a lead or heeling is punishment. I give him a few firm but not rough tugs on the lead and eventually he hops up and walks with me, but sometimes I really have to jerk on it to get him on his feet. We took him on a neighborhood walk on a longer leash and he walked with or slightly ahead of me but when it is just he and I on a 5-6 foot rope lead in the back yard, he is not having it.
Again, I want to stress that he isn't twisting his head or fighting with the lead...he more or less goes limp like "Oh man, this is freaking me out and I'm scared." quote

......................................................

Re read your post.
As I said early, force is not what this dog needs now.

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:20 pm

10-4. Thanks.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:31 am

Choose a method to teach heel and stick with it. Don't baby the dog, make him do as asked. Be firm and patient. His behavior is classic - for a long time he's been doing whatever he wanted to do and this is his way of avoiding doing what you want.

This type of dog can be hard to train. They put on the "Oh please don't kill me" act for everything. Don't fall for it. The challenge is to manage your frustration with his passive resistance. You can't get angry because that will make him worse. You have to find it within yourself to calmly outlast his drama.

I'd put money it, that if you had him on a whoa post, an insane crocodile would emerge.

If I were you, I would use the Huntsmith method on this dog, all the way through.

Good luck with your new dog.

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:01 am

shags wrote:
If I were you, I would use the Huntsmith method on this dog, all the way through.

Good luck with your new dog.

Not familiar with this method but open to suggestions.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:24 am

First, quit rubbing his stomach when he is lyeing down( in doing so your rewarding him for it) and at 5months just put your lead on him and take him for a walk, every time he gets in front change directions, no verabl commands, your trying to get the dog to pay attention and cue on your movement.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:31 am

Wolfeman, all the information you'll need is in the video. Go watch it at least 5 times before working with your dog. Lot's of information there to digest. It works if you're willing to think outside the box. My method gets you thinking like a dog. Take a look at my other videos, you'll see what I mean.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:45 am

Higgins wrote:Wolfeman, all the information you'll need is in the video. Go watch it at least 5 times before working with your dog. Lot's of information there to digest. It works if you're willing to think outside the box. My method gets you thinking like a dog.

Brad, does that include thinking like a dog with your tail between your legs, too?

A good start for heeling needs no thinking outside the box except for a treat that you've taken out of the box.

MG

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:35 am

I'm discovering that opinions on dog training are like opinions on trucks, shotguns, camo patterns...varied and intense.

I do appreciate it all.

chrokeva · Post by **chrokeva** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:34 am

This idea of looping a slip lead over the muzzle looks just like a "Gentle Leader" to me? http://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Gentle-Le ... tle+leader
Training gadgets sure make things easier on us but the more I see of them the more I am convinced that teaching a dog instead of controlling them is the way to go.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:23 pm

WolfeMan wrote:I'm discovering that opinions on dog training are like opinions on trucks, shotguns, camo patterns...varied and intense.

I do appreciate it all.

LOL Only 10 posts and you've already figured that out. Amazing!

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:14 pm

Sharon wrote:
WolfeMan wrote:I'm discovering that opinions on dog training are like opinions on trucks, shotguns, camo patterns...varied and intense.

I do appreciate it all.
LOL Only 10 posts and you've already figured that out. Amazing!

Depends on what your 'heel work' is like and what you want?...I wouldn't want this with a gun-dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcGOMUvokho

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:25 pm

Anybody object if I keep all my questions in one place?

What about introducing him to a pigeon?

Today was a much better day. Funny...if I hold a little piece of dried beef lung in my left pocket, he didn't quit on me but one time. When he did lay down, I gave him a light tap on the lead and showed him the treat...bingo. Up and walking.he is also starting to automatically sit when I stop.

I also reached out to a professional training kennel here locally and asked them for a consult. Will keep you posted when I hear back.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:34 pm

Good for you. He's a lucky dog.

How are you going to introduce him to a pigeon?

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:55 pm

Mate
Obviously the treats seem to work, so I'd stick with that if I were you. Later on wean him off the treats, nothing wrong with training a pup in the beginning with treats in my book

Cheers

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:30 am

Pre cooked chicken placed in your mouth is common with some of the best Obedience trainers. When the dog is where you want it, simply spit a piece for them. It will learn to go with you faster then putting more pressure on it by tugging. It also wont change how it hunts.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:57 am

WolfeMan wrote:Evan, I am familiar with 1-5 in theory and some practice. 6-10 not so much.

Looking to learn and not in a rush. I want to make this a long-term investment of time.

Okay, WolfeMan, I'm going to take you at your word. Your objectives have requirements. All the higher skills you want need a foundation to be built on, as well as maintained upon. That foundation is formal Basics. Let's go to step 5 and talk about what steps you'll take, or have taken to complete it. Before step 6, step 5 should be rock solid.

EvanG

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:59 am

Soarer31 wrote:Mate
Obviously the treats seem to work, so I'd stick with that if I were you. Later on wean him off the treats, nothing wrong with training a pup in the beginning with treats in my book

Cheers

Exactly. I've never used treats but if folks read the original post , this is an unusual dog.( I believe not all dogs are the same.

)

WolfeMan · Post by **WolfeMan** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:51 am

Evan, I'm working hard on 1&2 before I start force fetch and "Hold". I've been watching Freddy King's 27 video series on YouTube so I feel like I know and understand the basics.

Right now I'm training on "here" using a long lead. Reeling him in as I call "here" - any other suggestions for "here" are surely welcome.

What age or stage do most folks introduce the e-collar? To be clear, I am not trying to rush into it, nor have I been shopping for one, but I imagine there is a variety of conventional wisdom on the subject.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:52 am

WolfeMan wrote:Evan, I'm working hard on 1&2 before I start force fetch and "Hold". I've been watching Freddy King's 27 video series on YouTube so I feel like I know and understand the basics.

Right now I'm training on "here" using a long lead. Reeling him in as I call "here" - any other suggestions for "here" are surely welcome.

What age or stage do most folks introduce the e-collar? To be clear, I am not trying to rush into it, nor have I been shopping for one, but I imagine there is a variety of conventional wisdom on the subject.

For a lab, wait till after force fetch. It will be much easier as it has already had formal obedience and orcs fetch to help it understand pressure well.

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