Age for bird intro and hunting

Bgreen · Post by **Bgreen** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:20 pm

I am getting a new Elhew pointer pup in late August (she'll be 8 weeks when I get her). I'm thinking of following the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish method. A few questions...

1. What age do you recommend introducing your dog to birds? Why?
2. My dog will be 3 months old at the beginning of the hunting season (October 1 in NH). I hunt grouse, woodcock and pheasants. Would you take a pup this young hunting? Why or why not?

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:11 pm

I have pointers but I do not use the PS/PF system. I expose puppies to birds at 10 to 12 weeks. I try to wait until the puppy is big and bold enough that a bird isn't going to scare him.

I may have fired a .22 crimp around a 3 month old puppy, but probably not a shotgun yet. For this reason I would not take the puppy hunting. I would take the puppy for runs through the same cover that I would hunt as often as possible. I just wouldn't shoot a shotgun yet. I would keep the runs short and fun. I would have zero expectations of the puppy as far as bird work goes. If he points a bird, great. If he knocks and chases birds, that's great too.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:18 pm

A 3 month old puppy is very small, very impressionable, and very unreliable. It would be irresponsible to hunt one that small unless you are a very qualified individual. Do not do that. Many people wait a full year to hunt it because it takes that long to train, but IF done well, hunting is doable around 6 months. Prior to that you would be frustrated and it would likely cause problems.

Big difference between hunting and puttin the dog on birds though.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:18 pm

A 3 month old puppy is very small, very impressionable, and very unreliable. It would be irresponsible to hunt one that small unless you are a very qualified individual. Do not do that. Many people wait a full year to hunt it because it takes that long to train, but IF done well, hunting is doable around 6 months. Prior to that you would be frustrated and it would likely cause problems.

Big difference between hunting and puttin the dog on birds though.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:30 pm

Bgreen wrote: My dog will be 3 months old at the beginning of the hunting season (October 1 in NH). I hunt grouse, woodcock and pheasants. Would you take a pup this young hunting? Why or why not?

To do what ?

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:46 pm

polmaise wrote:
Bgreen wrote: My dog will be 3 months old at the beginning of the hunting season (October 1 in NH). I hunt grouse, woodcock and pheasants. Would you take a pup this young hunting? Why or why not?
To do what ?

To learn about the covers and the antics of birds of course. It is the American way, do not you know!

:roll:

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:00 pm

Ahhh! Gotcha

...So this 3 month old dog should well accustomed to people and other dogs and gunshot and game and all this running around stuff by then. Wow. you guy's sure have some real good dogs over there

...I am 'way behind' on training! ..mine don't even know how to get in and out of the truck with strange dogs yet :roll:

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:10 pm

3 months = 12 weeks.

If what you mean by "hunting" is shooting birds over the dog, then no, pups is too young. Intro to birds must happen first and intro to gun fire must also happen before you go hunting. But, if what you mean is to take a walk with pup in the woods (Without much under growth), without a gun and or a short walk in (SHORT) grass to get pup accustom to the woods and field without tiring your pup out "too much" then by all means YES! It's a good way to spend time. 10 or 15 minutes

I've known 4 and 5 month old pups that blinked birds for a long time because they were not introduced to birds properly. These pups were put down, fresh out of the truck, on a rooster pheasants that flushed only a few feet in front of them. In one case the owner, a patient man, finally worked pup through the blinking (turning away from the bird before pointing or flushing, acting as if the bird wasn't there). It took a long time to undo what he did.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:26 pm

polmaise wrote:Ahhh! Gotcha ...So this 3 month old dog should well accustomed to people and other dogs and gunshot and game and all this running around stuff by then. Wow. you guy's sure have some real good dogs over there ...I am 'way behind' on training! ..mine don't even know how to get in and out of the truck with strange dogs yet :roll:

LOL They aren't that good in Canada either . We wouldn't take a 12 week only baby into the bush/woods yet.

Bgreen · Post by **Bgreen** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:53 pm

Good advice on no shooting and/or serious hunting for my new pup this year. How about bird introduction timing? When do you introduce birds?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:12 pm

Depends on the pup and how much independence it is showing. For me , normally around 20 + weeks. I spend those early months' time on socialization mostly.
This little Lady was steady to flush and shot at 10 months with very little pressure from me. Only dog I ever had that matured that quickly. You have to read your dog to make many of those kinds of decisions you're asking about.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:02 am

Bgreen wrote:Good advice on no shooting and/or serious hunting for my new pup this year. How about bird introduction timing? When do you introduce birds?

More 'How' rather than 'when' .

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:38 am

polmaise wrote:Ahhh! Gotcha ...So this 3 month old dog should well accustomed to people and other dogs and gunshot and game and all this running around stuff by then. Wow. you guy's sure have some real good dogs over there ...I am 'way behind' on training! ..mine don't even know how to get in and out of the truck with strange dogs yet :roll:

Exactly

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:12 am

I'm sure they will catch up

I haven't told them they are in a race

Bgreen · Post by **Bgreen** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:13 am

Thanks, Sharon. I appreciate the advice. Maybe a strange question, but I see you're in snow country - I am too. If I were to start around 20 weeks as you suggest, I would be smack dab in the middle of a NH winter (typically a couple feet of snow are on the ground). I'm curious if you or others do bird intro work in the winter?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:33 am

Bgreen wrote:I am getting a new Elhew pointer pup in late August (she'll be 8 weeks when I get her). I'm thinking of following the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish method. A few questions...

1. What age do you recommend introducing your dog to birds? Why?
2. My dog will be 3 months old at the beginning of the hunting season (October 1 in NH). I hunt grouse, woodcock and pheasants. Would you take a pup this young hunting? Why or why not?

I cannot comment on the Perfection Kennels method because I am unfamiliar. However, as someone said, it matters much more HOW the intro is done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a puppy beating up on a pigeon whos wings are restrained(inside a sock with the toe cut out), for example, but there is a whole lot wrong with doing the same thing at the same age, with an unrestrained bird.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a young puppy on a walk in a cut over field and tossing a pigeon(or two) out for it to see and chase. There is a whole lot wrong with planting a bird for it to bump, especially when it is under three months old.

Taking a pup out for walks in short fields and open woods is a wonderful thing for the dog. There is a whole lot wrong with taking such a young pup where it will be exposed to gunfire, either from yourself or others.

About the earliest I have ever taken a dog hunting, truly hunting, pheasants and quail in areas with other hunters, was when the dog was eleven moths old. This particular dog was perhaps the boldest pup and the most mentally tough dog I have ever owned. That was a lot of years ago. You will probably never see that kind of mental toughness...especially not in an Elhew bred dog. They just don't make pointers like that so much anymore. Most dogs, even then and especially today, are not anywhere near ready for that kind of exposure until they are 18 moths to 2 years of age.

Patience. It is a virtue that I for one do not have enough of. Pointers in general and Elhew bred dogs in particular, have a lot of genetic talent. In general Elhew bred dogs are e smart and biddable and try to please. They may seem like they are ready for more advanced work, because their genetic talents show through...but they are babies and VERY impressionable, both for good and bad.

My best advice is to go slowly...deliberately slowly...and let the dog pull you along the training path. Have fun with your pup and make sure she is having fun with you...before anything.

RayG

RayG

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:59 am

I have and do use the Perfection Kennel method. I have PS and PF and have been nothing but pleased with the results. Jon has helped me with my Elhew pointer (who is now at summer camp with Jon in North Dakota). I intro'd birds early on to the dog using the PS methods.

I also introduced gunfire (at Perfection Kennel) at 4 months old - I did it "early" in my opinion but it was because I take my pups everywhere (including trials and dog events, youth events, sportshows, etc.). I knew that my dog was going to be around gunfire so I was proactive in my approach and kept him away from shooting until I could do a formal gun intro. Since I took him over to Jon at Perfection Kennel, we did it all there in a two-day period and I did follow-up at home.

The bird intro I did on my own and early. My pup has had a lot of exposure now to both birds and gunfire.

I would not hesitate to take the pup "hunting" if you aren't doing any shooting and if you're just getting the pup out in the field on birds on "fun hunts." You quit before the pup is tired but it's fun to take them if you're sure you can control the exposure to gunfire.

Follow the PS video series, it won't steer you wrong. Also, of note, Jon Hann loves Elhew Pointers! So when you call with a question (after summer camp of course since they don't have good service in North Dakota) he'll be happy to speak with you.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:42 am

As for timing of intro to birds, This is what I do. I have taken a freshly killing quail or pigeon and played/teased the puppies at 8 -10 week. As a breeder I give the pups an intro to birds before they go to their new homes and I see various reactions to a dead bird. Some puppies ignore it and others can't get enough and will continue looking for the bird several minutes after the intro is over. It's best to use a dead bird the first time to see what type of reaction you get. If the reaction is negative (pup shyed away from the dead bird) wait for a couple months before trying it again. (I've never had that happen) If they ignore the bird, try it again in a few weeks or a month. If the reaction is positive (Pup is not tentative, get excited, grabs a hold and tries to run away) then maybe the next week, or 2 try a restrained quail (young bobwhite or a Coturnix quail something that's not scary) in a sock with the toe cut out as Ray mentioned. Don't over do things. Keep pup wanting more by stopping before pup gets tired of the game. Let the pup tell you what it's ready for. If all is well I let pup work up to a live quail (not dizzied) in plain sight and let'em chase and flush. I do that once and maybe twice, no more. A young dog on pen raised quail is a recipe for disaster as so many things can go wrong. Always keep a young dog thats around pen raised quail on a leash or Check cord to control the situation.

This is what I do with my puppies. I'm always learning.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:06 am

Perfect start is an excellent way to go. However, even Jon doesn't take pups till they're at least 4 months old. Do not try to rush the program. Work on step one until you have it then move to step 2 and so on. This program can be used with very little stress on the dog which is good for youngsters. Then if you can follow up with one of Jon's clinics. The perfect time is after you have completed the perfect start video.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:10 am

I introduce at 6 weeks but there is a big difference between Intro and hunting. I certainly would not expect to hunt it this season... I agree that Jon is possibly the best at producing finished gundogs.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:03 pm

Bgreen wrote:Thanks, Sharon. I appreciate the advice. Maybe a strange question, but I see you're in snow country - I am too. If I were to start around 20 weeks as you suggest, I would be smack dab in the middle of a NH winter (typically a couple feet of snow are on the ground). I'm curious if you or others do bird intro work in the winter?

We wait.

We also try to buy a pup in like January so it's ready to rip in the Spring. ( Also helps to have a January pup for trialing purposes.) Buying a Fall pup in Ontario is not a good idea.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:05 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I introduce at 6 weeks but there is a big difference between Intro and hunting. I certainly would not expect to hunt it this season... I agree that Jon is possibly the best at producing finished gundogs.

By introducing at 20 weeks I meant in the field chasing pigeons , I didn't think of a clipped bird for drive early.
What do you do for a 6 week old puppy and birds?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:32 pm

Sharon wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I introduce at 6 weeks but there is a big difference between Intro and hunting. I certainly would not expect to hunt it this season... I agree that Jon is possibly the best at producing finished gundogs.
By introducing at 20 weeks I meant in the field chasing pigeons , I didn't think of a clipped bird for drive early.
What do you do for a 6 week old puppy and birds?

Sorry, I dizzy them and see who will be the best fit for their new home. Maybe people have different definitions of bird intro though. It is simply pups and no pressure.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:32 pm

IMO, there is no such thing as being too young for proper bird intro. I start by taking a live quail and carefully tease the pup with it before tossing it in the air and letting it fly away. When the pup shows real interest [they almost always do] and gives chase, I will plant a couple and let the pup find them. But it is all fun with zero pressure.

Charlie

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:29 pm

10-12 weeks and clipped wing pigeons. Beautiful combo!

jeff shumaker · Post by **jeff shumaker** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:26 pm

I agree get him introduced to birds 3 months is young. But my 4.5 month old shorthair was holding backing and retrieving.it all depends on the dog though. All are different. Some catch on to things quick some take a little more time. You know your dog the best.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:54 pm

jeff shumaker wrote:I agree get him introduced to birds 3 months is young. But my 4.5 month old shorthair was holding backing and retrieving.it all depends on the dog though. All are different. Some catch on to things quick some take a little more time. You know your dog the best.

You have a finished dog at 4.5 months?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:23 pm

You have one chance to make the dog right and the rest of its life to enjoy hunting over it.....

Don't be in a rush !!!

Bgreen · Post by **Bgreen** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:18 am

I'm very grateful for all the sage advice here. Lots of good stuff. For those of you that have used the PS/PF methods, the author suggests using an ecollar for whoa training and (after the dog understands and complies with the command), using the ecollar to enforce steadiness on birds. Have any of you run into issues with using the ecollar around birds.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:34 am

Bgreen wrote:I'm very grateful for all the sage advice here. Lots of good stuff. For those of you that have used the PS/PF methods, the author suggests using an ecollar for whoa training and (after the dog understands and complies with the command), using the ecollar to enforce steadiness on birds. Have any of you run into issues with using the ecollar around birds.

I have not when done properly. It is one of the big arguments against allowing GPS collars in AKC Trials because the dog couldn't tell the difference and its manners are more controllable. But that is not a bad thing.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:43 pm

I dont know much about dogs, but I can tall you it varies. I had a pointer than didnt too much about birds from 10-14 weeks. Dont push the issue if they aint interested. I can't tell what clicked or chagned, but she sure did start to take a liking to them soon after. Startint around 5 months and still up to now, she'll lay as far in that country as you'll let her hunting birds and that just fine with me.

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:52 pm

Bgreen wrote:I'm very grateful for all the sage advice here. Lots of good stuff. For those of you that have used the PS/PF methods, the author suggests using an ecollar for whoa training and (after the dog understands and complies with the command), using the ecollar to enforce steadiness on birds. Have any of you run into issues with using the ecollar around birds.

if you follow the ps/pf method the dog will be whoa trained without birds and reinforced with the ecollar , then the dog will be asked to whoa while only seeing the birds not smelling them, then finally the dog will be whoa'd while smelling the birds, this is a step by step process, if followed properly the correction has little to do with the bird any very thing to do with all of the step before the bird is added to the training process

Boolywooger · Post by **Boolywooger** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:38 pm

I've watched the Start portion of the PS/PF system repeatedly and it seems very logical and doable, then I watched the Finish DVDs and "oh my"... It seems I'm going to have to trap every feral pigeon in Atlanta to have enough birds for the Finish portion.

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