Proofing a Steady Dog

[Higgins]

Here is a link to a video I recently posted. I have included here, a copy of the text explaining the training scenerio.
http://youtu.be/1OUKQihPqwM


Higgins Gundogs are trained and managed to a high level. They must be able to adapt to new and unusual situations and control their excitement level. We want to see all their style and intensity, but they must choose to remain steady. Here, we're proofing a seasoned dog. This is Greg Belanger, HGDH and his dog HGD Harry. This was filmed a while ago during one of our training hunts. While Harry is managing a moving pheasant, we release a young, untrained pup. The pup goes out and bumps and chases Harry's bird. What is Harry's response? He doesn't break, he manages his energy. He is steady to flush, shot and kill. He is able to do this because he has learned to trust us. He knows, with our help, he will get his bird.

I thought you might find it interesting.

Enjoy,

Brad Higgins
http://www.Higginsgundogs.com

[chicken19590]

Yes all good but the dog sat down. I would release the dog when the bird fell. I would let the dog get the bird from either the ground or the pup. Just my 2 cents.

[ACooper]

I am curious about this dog sitting as well, I believe you posted a video before of a different dog that also sat. Do you teach your dogs to sit prior to steadying?

[Higgins]

Hello ACooper,

I don't teach them to sit. Some dogs naturally sit, some don't. What's important is the steadiness. We train dogs to hunt, not to compete in trials or tests where sitting is against the rules.

Were you impressed with the steadiness?

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[ACooper]

The dog is very steady, I wonder though, at this stage of the game was the steadiness gained in lieu of confidence?

[Higgins]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[Carolina Gundogs]

Brad, I do not believe it's not against the rules in AKC mh to sit if it happens.
Is there a reason you intentionally try and keep your dogs out of test and trial conditions?

[Higgins]

Hello Carolina,

I guess it all boils down to individual expectations and what makes us happy. We're all spending time with our dogs and that's a good thing. For me, I don't consider hunting a competitive sport. Me and my clients hunt to relax. We want to see beautiful, high class dog work and a calm, quiet hunt.

Brad Higgins

[ACooper]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

You sir misinterpreted my post. I would 100% admit that seeing 15 seconds of dog tells almost nothing about a dog, however my questions do not change, this is not the first dog you've posted a video of that has sat during the video. It does make me curious about your method, I do not want a pissing match, but do have the right to an opinion or to ask a question and when you post a video on a public forum I would think you would expect to get other peoples opinions. I am sure it's a nice dog. Good luck with him.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

You mentioned keeping a dog steady with class & style,we must have very different opinions of what class & style is because I don't see it!!
You can break a dog at a young age & in short order if you don't care what he looks like on his birds but if he don't have the style & class I want when finished I don't want the dog.
We evidently have different opinions & have every right to have those opinions.

[ezzy333]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

If it can't be discussed here where everyone can learn then it is of little use to the forum.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

If it can't be discussed here where everyone can learn then it is of little use to the forum.

Ezzy

[nitrex]

Thanks for the video. You titled your post "proofing a steady dog." What do u consider steady? In my view, your dog failed to be steady when it first scented the bird, stopped movement, but then took at least 7 steps toward the bird. I can't see too many wild Kansas pheasants sticking around for that kind of "steadiness.". Also, did u release the dog to come towards you for the shot bird after the shot and human retrieve?

Nitrex

[Higgins]

I don't "whoa" my dogs on first scent. They are allowed to manage their birds. When they're finished, they know the game and the prey. We actually harvest more Kansas pheasants with these dogs that have learned how to stop the runners. A dog that is stopped or "whoa'd", can't track the runners and will not be as successful.

The second dog was released to go to the shooter for the bird.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[gundogguy]

Nice work.
Back before we had POV cams and such technology I used to guide hunts, and would run me ES and ESS together usually the spaniel at heel and the ES covering ground pinning birds.
With ES on point I would release me spaniel to dig the bird out once flushed both dogs steady spaniel sitting and over time my ES began to sit as well. The spaniel was sent on the retrieve while ES was allowed to continue hunting for another bird. Great fun almost a parlor trick if you will. Takes lots of time and lots of bird and the sky's the limit as what can be done with our great sporting breeds.
Thanks Brad for the Video keep em coming!

[shags]

Using a young unbroke dog to bust birds like that is a great way to proof trial and test dogs, since that sort of thing occurs IRL. The older dog learns how to handle a lot of pressure and chaos.

Kind of fun to do it that way, especially when you know you can turn the tables and use the steady dog to teach the young one things like honoring.

[DonF]

You mentioned keeping a dog steady with class & style,we must have very different opinions of what class & style is because I don't see it!!
You can break a dog at a young age & in short order if you don't care what he looks like on his birds but if he don't have the style & class I want when finished I don't want the dog.
We evidently have different opinions & have every right to have those opinions.

+1

[ezzy333]

You mentioned keeping a dog steady with class & style,we must have very different opinions of what class & style is because I don't see it!!
You can break a dog at a young age & in short order if you don't care what he looks like on his birds but if he don't have the style & class I want when finished I don't want the dog.
We evidently have different opinions & have every right to have those opinions.

+1

+2

[mask]

This is starting to sound a lot like petty jealousy. Brad has a system that works for him and his clients. I like his videos and input. He makes a living training dogs which says something about his methods.Thank you Brad and keep up the good work.

[ezzy333]

This is starting to sound a lot like petty jealousy. Brad has a system that works for him and his clients. I like his videos and input. He makes a living training dogs which says something about his methods.Thank you Brad and keep up the good work.

Are you saying it is OK to tell him what a great job he is doing but not OK to say we are not impressed, even when he asks for our opinion. I think we are all aware of what he does for a living and that is good but when he constantly brings video's to this board asking for approval I think it is only being fair and honest to state your opinion. I love his marketing techniques but am not impressed with the product or his explanations of what the dog is thinking. My dogs do a lot of the same things his are doing but they sure aren't doing it for the reasons he states.

I do believe if you are going to put out questionable opinions and then ask how impressed you are it is only correct to give your honest opinion. I am not advising anyone to not use him or his techniques if they can afford them, but I am saying there are others that train differently and do a great job of it. To each his own and hope they are are all successful.

Ezzy

[Higgins]

Thanks Shags, Gundogguy and Mask. I'm glad you like the videos. I'll keep them coming.

And to others that may disagree with my methods, there are many ways to train gun dogs. Do what works for you. I'm always interested in seeing videos of other methods. Post them here and we can discuss the similarities or differences.

I would suggest for every method, that you keep an open mind and listen to your dog. The dogs I train do the things you see for the reasons I stated. Be aware and pay attention to the differences between what predators (dogs, etc.) do naturally, and what they do based on pressure or obedience. There is a big difference, if you are willing to give them the freedom to show you.

As always, from your point of view, this is just my humble opinion. There are many ways to make dogs do your will. Just for kicks, try giving them free will once in a while. They might surprise you.

Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

[crackerd]

There are many ways to make dogs do your will. ...try giving them free will once in a while.

Brad, out there in cloud cuckoo land, would they call that "laissez faire training" or "anti-training?" Or do they say dogs come by their "wills" through reincarnation?

MG

[polmaise]

What a load of Piaffe

[gundogguy]

What a load of Piaffe

Bless you Polmaise I'll let the Yanks figure that one out!

[crackerd]

Dunno about that interpretation, gunddogguy, Polmaise may be meaning to say "what a load of Piaf" - which may be a tribute to the trainer (or anti-trainer) for continually being "on song" as the Brits say about his "unique methods."

But if I had to guess, "piaffe" would be another word for piffle, which is another word for tommyrot, which is another word yet for, er, bollocks.

MG

[Carolina Gundogs]

Hello Carolina,

I guess it all boils down to individual expectations and what makes us happy. We're all spending time with our dogs and that's a good thing. For me, I don't consider hunting a competitive sport. Me and my clients hunt to relax. We want to see beautiful, high class dog work and a calm, quiet hunt.

Brad Higgins

Brad, I believe most on this forum place the value of a great hunt with a classy, nice, well trained dog at the top of their lists as well. I have greatly enjoyed studying the various training methods and learning what best meets my needs. I look forward to continuing my study and learning more from the dogs with each session. I wish you nothing but great success with your methods and dogs. However, when I see you purposely keep them out of testing/trialing conditions, it makes me think maybe you don't truly have confidence in these methods or not in the dogs yourself. I am also a little concerned if you are actually misreading your dogs when I look at your videos.

Again, I wish you the best with all you do.

[Neil]

I have a friend that has spent 50+ years learning about eagles, a PhD and a lot of field time. I always get a kick out of his answer when someone asks why a bird exhibits a certain behavior.

His stock response.

" Well, we have gotten pretty good at telling you what they will do, can even tell you when, how often, and the needed stimulus, but we have no idea why, we just make stuff up that sounds logical".

Same is true with all animals, including man. We just guess, and then justify it with what passes for logic.

No one knows why a dog does anything, and it doesn't matter a whit as long as we can train the what and when.

Neil

[polmaise]

No one knows why a dog does anything, and it doesn't matter a whit as long as we can train the what and when.

Neil

I like that bit Neil ..I was always told by my Grandfather that the secret to dog training is getting the dog to do what it wants to do at the same time as we are telling it to do it ?.
He said 'Timing is everything' !....To show how it's done . ....Proofing it every time when required needed something else

[Sharon]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

If it can't be discussed here where everyone can learn then it is of little use to the forum.

Ezzy

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

He discussed it for 4 posts and decided not to keep arguing publicly. I think that's commendable and a breath of fresh air.

only for fun gentlemen:

[Becassier]

I am a 55 year old women married my husband is 59, we own 7 Braque du Bourbonnais, yes they are a rare breed and we are UPLAND bird hunters. We have tested in NAVHDA, VHDF and have also competed in NSTRA trials. Lets face it boys, your balls are not bigger than mine. God put mine on my chest so they wouldn't get chafed. We are UPLAND bird hunters (I feel like I'm in AA).

For the past 5 years our training methods have revolved around the West Method. We have been lucky to have made friend with Martha Greenlee who introduced us to the West Method, Maurice Lindley, the Higgins Releaser and to Brad.. THANK GOD someone else understands.. we don't use E-collars (not that there is anything wrong with them.. Personally we don't)

We find pleasure in the fact we let our dog find their passion, while we are up north running on Grouse and woodcock in the spring others are worried about 10 minute duck search. We are quite in the field and when we hunt, if our dog has a bad day we break open our guns and wait for them.. No big deal the wild birds will teach them.

This is our 17 month old female that we have been using this method on, she is now waiting for the next bird, holding steady thru the first flush


I cannot wait 27 days until the Grouse opener, for those of you who can't understand.. Oh well, you may want just to open your mind a bit.. training to me is not a race, unless at times if you are under the deadline of a test. No one method is perfect, no competitive method is perfect, to me the closest thing to perfect is running on wild birds. If we have to choose between training for a test or running on wild birds, we choose the wild birds. While your methods may be right for you and your dog, it may not be right for mine.

Thank you Brad, Mo and Martha.. my vote keep the videos coming..

[Becassier]

Here are 2 more of my dogs:




On a lighter note.. Wasn't that a Griffon Brad was working with? I give him kudos that the dog stayed and sat down geeze, you all complaining have you ever worked with a Griffon? If not seek one out and put a few weeks into training, most of the time they are just pissed there is nothing dead to roll in or retrieve.. just sayin

[ACooper]

On a lighter note.. Wasn't that a Griffon Brad was working with? I give him kudos that the dog stayed and sat down geeze, you all complaining have you ever worked with a Griffon? If not seek one out and put a few weeks into training, most of the time they are just pissed there is nothing dead to roll in or retrieve.. just sayin

I see and help with several at every NAVHDA training day, some broke some in the process, none sit around birds.

Choose whatever method you like, no one should be so easily influenced as to change or have an emotional response due to a comment on message board.

However it is my opinion that this dog and the last dog that also sat in the video are "saying the same thing".

[Higgins]

Hello Becassier,

Yes, they are Griffons. As you know, they are intelligent dogs with plenty of natural drive. You must be careful training them though. They are a softer breed and they need to understand what is being asked.

Here is a recent photo of that young pup that bumped, chased and grabbed the pheasant. I think you would agree, she turned out ok.

http://higginsgundogs.com/wp-content/up ... -Point.jpg

That's not an e-collar she's wearing, it's a tracking collar. We are able to train most dogs without the use of e-collars.

Lots of different training methods out there. This is what works for me and the dogs.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[Higgins]

However it is my opinion that this dog and the last dog that also sat in the video are "saying the same thing".

Yes, they are saying, "good shot boss, is it my turn to retrieve?"

[chrokeva]

Not that this has anything to do with training (or this video) but this thread got me thinking why is it that some dogs sit while some stand and some lie down when working. When I was working border collies it would be ridiculous to have a border collie sit when on sheep. I think you would be laughed off the trial field with a BC that sat on sheep while many of the other AKC herding breeds would sit, stand, or lie down depending on breed and training. Anyway I found this article that kind of talks about genetics and different positions a dog takes while working and thought it interesting (not sure if anyone else will though) http://www.bordercollie.org/health/kpbehavior.html

[twistedoak]

as an owner of a young griff
I have to say my griff sat a few times early on
once she realized this was something I was not fond of, she stopped.
it didn't take an e collar ,just re standing her once or twice.

basically the griff in the video is sitting because the owner doesn't care if it sits or not

[Higgins]

Twistedoak,

Exactly. You understand the Griff personality.

Basically, in order to be successful (getting a bird in their mouth), they learn what NOT to do (don't get pushy or chase the bird). In my training, I don't tell them what TO do. I don't give them a "whoa" or stand command. I don't need to. The bird teaches them that if they get pushy, they will loose.

I've learned that dogs don't tell each other what TO do, they tell each other what NOT to do. It's the nature of the beast. That's what I try to emulate in my training. Sounds like a small difference but if I'm going to try to understand the psychology of dogs, it's a huge difference.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[ezzy333]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

If it can't be discussed here where everyone can learn then it is of little use to the forum.

Ezzy

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

He discussed it for 4 posts and decided not to keep arguing publicly. I think that's commendable and a breath of fresh air.

only for fun gentlemen:

There was no discussion about anything. We were told what brad thinks as though he has some special insight to what and how a dog thinks. That is a long way from discussing and if there was more to be told, then do it here and not on a PM. You deserve to here what everyone thinks and not just one side. Brad has been good at telling us how he thinks and trying to sell us on the fact he knows what the dog thinks. But there has been way too many times he is saying one thing and the dog, just like yours and mine is doing something else. Consequently, people with some experience and many time even more than Brad have questioned what he is trying to sell. That is part of business and there is no way anyone should not be able to ask questions or state opinions as long as they are done respectfully. Todate , Brad and the questioners have done just that. That is what makes good learning material for all of us. And it is what brings more customers to Brads business or drives some in other directions and that is as it should be also.

[Trekmoor]

The film was titled "proofing a steady dog." I think it succeeded in showing that. The dog was steady to flush , to shot and to fall of game even with the pup "exciting" it to compete for the bird.
Personally, I didn't like what the pup was allowed to do one little bit but was happy with the adult dog's performance keeping in mind what the title of the film was. In Britain the fact that the dog sat to flush, shot and fall of game would get it good marks in a trial.

The adult dog did move or creep in towards the bird but I would expect my dogs to do that too if a bird moved off from the original point. The dog moved in very cautiously to maintain it's original level of the scent entering it's nose and then pointed again once it had that level once more. That movement of the dog's is obviously not liked in America and here in Britain many people would not like it either but I am not one of them. I once attended a training seminar during which this "creeping" movement was discussed at some length and with considerable raising of voices. The hall full of people just could not agree on the subject of whether it was permissible for a dog to creep on point or not under some circumstances.

I think that if the dog has taught itself to do this cautiously and without flushing the bird then it is O.K. .The dog in the film appeared to have taught itself , with the help of several birds in the past, to do that well.

It all depends on your own personal preference , a dog can be encouraged to work to suit the individuals preference.
I'm still not happy about letting a pup behave as the one in the film did though ! I'd use a spaniel or a lab to do that sort of steadying ,not a pointing breed pup.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

You're misreading the dog ACooper. I respect this forum and I don't want this to get into a ******* match. Any other questions or comments, please PM me. I would be glad to discuss it.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

If it can't be discussed here where everyone can learn then it is of little use to the forum.

Ezzy

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

He discussed it for 4 posts and decided not to keep arguing publicly. I think that's commendable and a breath of fresh air.

only for fun gentlemen:

As I have mention in an earlier post on this thread. I enjoyed my E. Setter and a numerous Springer's working harmoniously together in the field while guiding hunts. It always brought great joy but it really was just a parlor trick and tricks should be fun for dog and man.
While gunning Cocker trials a number of years back I met a refugee from the British Isles named Paul McGagh, Paul has a marvelous way about himself and works very hard at seeing that He and dogs have a good fun and yet remember their job description.
If possible view this in "full screen mode" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--K7dMWOszQ

Hi on!
Hal

[Soarer31]

The film was titled "proofing a steady dog." I think it succeeded in showing that. The dog was steady to flush , to shot and to fall of game even with the pup "exciting" it to compete for the bird.
Personally, I didn't like what the pup was allowed to do one little bit but was happy with the adult dog's performance keeping in mind what the title of the film was. In Britain the fact that the dog sat to flush, shot and fall of game would get it good marks in a trial.

The adult dog did move or creep in towards the bird but I would expect my dogs to do that too if a bird moved off from the original point. The dog moved in very cautiously to maintain it's original level of the scent entering it's nose and then pointed again once it had that level once more. That movement of the dog's is obviously not liked in America and here in Britain many people would not like it either but I am not one of them. I once attended a training seminar during which this "creeping" movement was discussed at some length and with considerable raising of voices. The hall full of people just could not agree on the subject of whether it was permissible for a dog to creep on point or not under some circumstances.

I think that if the dog has taught itself to do this cautiously and without flushing the bird then it is O.K. .The dog in the film appeared to have taught itself , with the help of several birds in the past, to do that well.

It all depends on your own personal preference , a dog can be encouraged to work to suit the individuals preference.
I'm still not happy about letting a pup behave as the one in the film did though ! I'd use a spaniel or a lab to do that sort of steadying ,not a pointing breed pup.

Bill T.

Excellent Post,
Agree totally
As for what the dog is thinking?
As long we are on the same page in the field.... Don't really much care

[birddogger]

Twistedoak,

Exactly. You understand the Griff personality.

Basically, in order to be successful (getting a bird in their mouth), they learn what NOT to do (don't get pushy or chase the bird). In my training, I don't tell them what TO do. I don't give them a "whoa" or stand command. I don't need to. The bird teaches them that if they get pushy, they will loose.

I've learned that dogs don't tell each other what TO do, they tell each other what NOT to do. It's the nature of the beast. That's what I try to emulate in my training. Sounds like a small difference but if I'm going to try to understand the psychology of dogs, it's a huge difference.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

I am glad your system works for you. However, as was brought up in another thread, birds alone will not always teach all dogs steadiness and manners. I have seen many dogs over the years where chasing became their reward for finding birds and they needed obedience training and taught to stand still, beginning in the yard and transferred to the field. Sometimes, the bird teaches them steadiness and other times, birds teach them to chase and they need a handler/trainer to teach them what is and what is not acceptable.

Respectfully,
Charlie

[smittty]

bottom line is the dog remained steady I don't care if he was sitting or standing on his head he showed great restraint .. hats off to the trainer and dog