Bump the game !

[polmaise]

Fellow Gun Dog folk,
Looking for your thoughts/views on how you train the process or would ? (even if you don't) for hunting flushing breeds - Bird dogs! ,yea spaniels too !
Find the game and on command 'Bump' the game to move (ie touch it with it's nose to move it from seat ) in order to be shot whilst the dog remains steady after the 'flush/move' without whistle ? primarily ground game ,but feather is ok ?..Gundogguy I would respect a reply later rather than sooner
Thanks

[DonF]

i think your talking about stop to flush? Take the dog back into the yard. I do pointing dogs so I revert to the whoa exercise. get the dog stopped on whoa and let it stand a moment then release a bird. The first few time's the dog does break. Just stop the dog and start over. Work the whoa command and release of the bird closer and closer until you can leave the whoa command out and the dog stops at the release of the bird. Go back out inn the field with a remote and work the dog in up wind of the bird. When nyour sure the dog will see or hear the bird go, pop the bird, dog should stop then.

I go through the first exercise three time's. The first time I do use the live bird. My thinking is released and flying it's less likely to chase than if the bird hit the ground. The second time I start from the beginning and drop a dead bird on the ground next to me. As the dog get reliable at stopping to the drop, I increase the distance of the drop but not toward the dog. The third time I start, I use a live bird with flight feathers removed and hobble's with a long string attached to be able to collect the bird easily again. Start from the beginning and the first time you drop the bird, drop it behind you. That way you have yourself between the bird and the dog. Helps keep the dog there and helps you stop the dog should it break, they usually break the first few times. As the dog get good at it start tossing the bird out to your side. from there toss it out and go herd it around with your dog standing.

All any of this does is take the verbal whoa command and make the command visual. Has worked great for me. KISS!

[polmaise]

i think your talking about stop to flush?

Nope!
KISS !
But I appreciate the in sight to whoa

[mnaj_springer]

Maybe you can chalk this question up to naïveté, but are you essentially asking how to train flushing dogs to "flush?"

[polmaise]

Flush to 'seated' game ! without pegging 'Catching' the game
I'll concede to the naivety and Non Clarification .

[CDN_Cocker]

Won't find much here - that would be marks against a spaniel over here. It would mean the dog is easing up as it gets to the bird. Our's peg many birds (in trials as well) and it is not a negative thing. It means the dog is driving hard - the coveted "bold flush" we all seek. A dog that "bumped" a bird into the air would not be wanted by very many folks on this side of the pond.

[polmaise]

Won't find much here - that would be marks against a spaniel over here. It would mean the dog is easing up as it gets to the bird. Our's peg many birds (in trials as well) and it is not a negative thing. It means the dog is driving hard - the coveted "bold flush" we all seek. A dog that "bumped" a bird into the air would not be wanted by very many folks on this side of the pond.

I wasn't asking how popular it was,or what is desired . I was asking how you would go about training for it ? much like I would ask how you would go about training a dachshund to do a roll over?It may not be what you would want

[welsh]

But to Cass's point, I wouldn't go about training it. Training a dog not to trap birds is inimical to one of our basic training tools, the clip-wing pigeon.

[CDN_Cocker]

I wasn't asking how popular it was,or what is desired . I was asking how you would go about training for it ?

Buy one of them breeds that get so terrified by the scent of game that they freeze up...

[Fran Seagren]

A little more clarification please. Are you wanting your dog to stop (point or sit) when it smells the game? Then, on command, flush the game, and then sit/stop to the flush? Are you then wanting the dog to retrieve the game after you shoot it? What kind of dog do you have?

[mnaj_springer]

This is how I'd train that.... I wouldn't! Haha sorry. No clue here. Never would try.

[Sharon]

You have to speak another language to teach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNeeBDk ... e=youtu.be

[Higgins]

I find what I call a Flush/Stop cue, to be very useful in certain types of cover. I teach it to all of my dogs. They must be steady, understand stop to flush and steady to flush, and be a bit experienced in the field before I start allowing them to flush or retrieve. I believe dogs see this new command the same way they see the fetch command. It's a release to chase birds. I want them to clearly understand that steadiness leads to success before allowing them to chase on cue.

The way I teach this to a flushing dog is very similar to working with a pointing dog. I use a checkcord at first to control the chase. When they flush the bird, I stop them. The shooter kills the bird and brings it back to the dog. Soon, the dog begins to believe that his stop caused the gun to go off and the bird to be killed. If you use good birds that rarely get caught, the dog learns to push them up or what I call "present the bird to the guns" without trying to peg them. He learns that his odds of success increase if he puts them up instead of trying to catch them. Pretty quick, I can drop the check cord. If he chases the bird, no gunshot, no reward (no bird). If he aggressively flushes and stops, he is rewarded with the gunshot and the bird.

If I can keep a dog thinking that he is in control of his success, that he is making his own choices, I believe I will see more of his natural talent, intensity and drive.


Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

[polmaise]

Thanks Brad

[gundogguy]

Fellow Gun Dog folk,
Looking for your thoughts/views on how you train the process or would ? (even if you don't) for hunting flushing breeds - Bird dogs! ,yea spaniels too !
Find the game and on command 'Bump' the game to move (ie touch it with it's nose to move it from seat ) in order to be shot whilst the dog remains steady after the 'flush/move' without whistle ? primarily ground game ,but feather is ok ?..Gundogguy I would respect a reply later rather than sooner
Thanks

"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"
1. Drive, strength of quest, quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush, boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs kindly acceptance of training

All though it has been quite some time since I have hunted or shot any rabbits I would expect me dogs to transition to fur quite easily. "Bumping game" would place the training prospect on the re-home list very quickly. One of the determining factors when getting ready to steady a dog to flush and shot is the strength of flush and boldness. Lack of which, probable dooms the pup to be raised in a new home environment.
I really could not give you much insight into how to control the flush so as to make it an easier shot for the gun. I personally love the challenge of testing shots anyway, both in angles and distance. In training when running a dog I always ask the guns to ride birds for as long as they can, wanting the longest mark that can be set up is of more value than a short easy shot and simple mark, the bag be "bleep". Some of the videos I see are just awful in the way the birds are chopped up close.

[polmaise]

Hal/Brad,
I'm using similar principle to detection dog schooling,the indicator being the dog coming on scent and the intensity of that signal being the closer the target is. Promotion and encouragement of the bold intent to have the target move rather than the dog catch,so it's a sit/stop after a flush.

I actually used a long line on the target so far ,rather than the dog Brad as the type of cover for the theatre of training makes your lovely scenic ground look like a desert.
PS.
Cass ,Thanks for the suggestion of "Buy one of them breeds that get so terrified by the scent of game that they freeze up." But I'm training the dog to do a particular function rather than swapping it for one that can

Fran Seagren,In this particular case the dog is a spaniel ,however for the purpose of the process it shouldn't matter. No- I'm not training for a stop/point or sit when it scents game ,the opposite actually and yes the dog will be asked to retrieve the game after it's shot.

mnaj_springer,Your reply is interpreted as Couldn't :roll:

[mnaj_springer]

So I understand this situation clearly... You asked people on this forum how to train a for a particular behavior, but you already know how you will train it?

[polmaise]

So I understand this situation clearly... You asked people on this forum how to train a for a particular behavior, but you already know how you will train it?

I'm at this point " I actually used a long line on the target so far"
But you can stick around for the ride

[Higgins]

Hello Polmaise,

What is a "target"?

[Nutmeg247]

Pegging a bird is going to be very self-reinforcing for a dog. Not to mention a natural, instinctive behavior, similar to a chicken scratching. Bumping with the dog's nose? Not as much. Solely from the perspective of discussing training issues, it seems to me a modification of the final pounce/bite to be a pounce/nip might be easier for some dogs at least, than a pounce and bump.

Honestly, if I were going for a nose-bump, not a nip, I'd probably start with balls as a target, similar to Treibball but smaller. Then switch to dead birds on a string after a time, then figure out what to do when the dog does catch a live one and enjoys it more than bumping.

I assume this is to give paying shooters a chance at a bird? How many times is this even going to be relevant?

[gundogguy]

Hal/Brad,
I'm using similar principle to detection dog schooling,the indicator being the dog coming on scent and the intensity of that signal being the closer the target is. Promotion and encouragement of the bold intent to have the target move rather than the dog catch,so it's a sit/stop after a flush.

I actually used a long line on the target so far ,rather than the dog Brad as the type of cover for the theatre of training makes your lovely scenic ground look like a desert.
PS.
Cass ,Thanks for the suggestion of "Buy one of them breeds that get so terrified by the scent of game that they freeze up." But I'm training the dog to do a particular function rather than swapping it for one that can

Fran Seagren,In this particular case the dog is a spaniel ,however for the purpose of the process it shouldn't matter. No- I'm not training for a stop/point or sit when it scents game ,the opposite actually and yes the dog will be asked to retrieve the game after it's shot.

mnaj_springer,Your reply is interpreted as Couldn't :roll:

Explosives, heroin, cocaine?? cadaver dogs?? SAR dogs, are all trained to give an alert! of some sort!

[welsh]

How many times is this even going to be relevant?

Well, in UK trials, pegging a bird is an eliminating fault. That makes it relevant over there.

[Nutmeg247]

How many times is this even going to be relevant?

Well, in UK trials, pegging a bird is an eliminating fault. That makes it relevant over there.

That's normally addressed by a stop whistle and sit to flush, I believe? Re-reading the o.p., he does sound like he's focused on rabbits, though. Interesting.

[welsh]

The issue comes up with a bird (or rabbit) that either won't flush or is slow off the mark. There's no flush for the dog to sit to.

The English approach is to train the dog to engage in an interpretive dance routine whereby imaginative imitations of flight are supposed to invoke the desire to take wing. Creative use of the spaniel's distinctive feathering to evoke the bird's plumage earns extra points. As a last resort, the dog may gently bump the bird with its nose, being careful not to dislodge any feathers or cause alarm.

Over here, we just figure that if you won't fly, that's your funeral.

[Trekmoor]

Over here, we just figure that if you won't fly, that's your funeral.

My three cockers all figure the same as you do ! I don't trial them so it doesn't really matter. Even if I did trial them I'd just take my chances that they'd fail to peg any birds and thus remain in the trial. I've competed in retriever and Hunt/Point/Retriever trials where the same no pegging rule applies and not once has any dog of mine's ever pegged any kind of game whether furred or feathered. They seemed to keep their pegging to non trial situations and if a bird didn't fly quickly or a rabbit run quickly then it was as good as in the bag.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

The issue comes up with a bird (or rabbit) that either won't flush or is slow off the mark. There's no flush for the dog to sit to.
Over here, we just figure that if you won't fly, that's your funeral.

Spot on welsh .

I was asking you guys what procedure you would use to train the dog for that situation rather than what you already do or leave to chance and has nothing to do with whether you trial or not.Or whether it is accepted or a ruling in any country.

I have done it and I have done it with different breeds ,but I haven't done it the same way every time! I could have been lucky or I could have had the right dog ? I've also had a few that 'just don't get it' .I was just looking for your thought process on how you would train for it?.
Thanks

[gundogguy]

The issue comes up with a bird (or rabbit)

Over here, we just figure that if you won't fly, that's your funeral.

And even if the bird comes off the nest pegging is not out of the question. These 2 dogs are still having productive trial careers. We tend to give our pups flying lessons at a very early age!

[welsh]

I was asking you guys what procedure you would use to train the dog for that situation....

Well, I am of course being entirely facetious, but not entirely without reason. To my mind, the best answer to "how would you train a dog to do something quite different from what you usually train it to do" is always going to be "I would seek out the advice of someone who already does that."

There are obvious things I would have to change in my training, such as eliminating the use of clipped-wing pigeons that the dog is encouraged to trap, and indeed not using planted pigeons and chukars because the dog will often trap thosem, but beyond that I would pretty much be leaving everything to chance and to trial and error. Trial and error -- my trial and the dog's error -- is a lousy way to train a dog.

So naturally, I would contact you first.

[polmaise]

Fantastic illustration of what I don't want Hal, cheers
Not saying that what is shown is wrong ...Just the opposite of what I'm training for.

You have all been very good at explaining and showing what your dogs can do that's great
Thanks guys

[mnaj_springer]

It seems like doing some cross training with a pointer trainer could help, knowing their training emphasizes that a dog never catches a bird.... Maybe using pigeons in launchers to teach the dog he can't catch the bird? Welsh is right... clipwings would be detrimental to training this skill.

[gundogguy]

Fantastic illustration of what I don't want Hal, cheers
Not saying that what is shown is wrong ...Just the opposite of what I'm training for.

You have all been very good at explaining and showing what your dogs can do that's great
Thanks guys

I think a wise old Scotsman said this " Don't do what don't work do what do work"!

Please explain why you want to train the opposite of what is shown in the pictures. I'm confused!

[Trekmoor]

I loved the photographs ! One of my GSP's was told to flush during a competition. She went in hard and when the bird was 6-8 feet up into the air she took a flying leap at it and her jaws made a very audible click as she just missed it. I thought I was in for an early bath but the judges only comment was that it had been a good strong flush ! :roll:

Bill T.

[polmaise]

That's nice

[gundogguy]

That's nice

I thought so!