Force Fetch question

[Roffey]

I have a Yellow Lab Female 13 months old. Following Fowl Dogs. Hold went really well moved along faster then I expected. When i went to the ear pinch she seems to "get it" but is slow to actually fetch, if she decides to fetch at all. I keep putting the bumper in her mouth and release the pressure but she wont actually go for it herself. Been at it about 2 weeks generally once a day 10 - 15 min. in the morning.
Not sure where to go from here will she start to "fetch" on her own if i keep at it?

[Doc E]

Personally, I prefer SmartFetch far more than Fowl Dogs.
If what you are doing now isn't working, change methods.

.

[Bluesky2012]

First off try duckhuntingchat.com

I always advocate lab owners go there because it is more lab specific.

A few questions, are you starting the bumper right at its mouth and forcing it in as the pressure starts? You HAVE to start small and make sure the dog understands the "on off switch" of pressure (out of mouth= pressure... In mouth=no pressure)

Is your dog shutting down because of pressure, or are you nagging the dog and it's just refusing you because you aren't applying enough pressure? This is crucial. If you can't 100% read that then find a local pro to help you.

Is your dog collar conditioned? It's not uncommon for a dog to just straight up not handle the ear pinch, but can handle the collar so just using the collar works better for some.

You need to understand FF is crucial for the foundation of retriever work. Don't screw it up.

[EvanG]

I have a Yellow Lab Female 13 months old. Following Fowl Dogs. Hold went really well moved along faster then I expected. When i went to the ear pinch she seems to "get it" but is slow to actually fetch, if she decides to fetch at all. I keep putting the bumper in her mouth and release the pressure but she wont actually go for it herself. Been at it about 2 weeks generally once a day 10 - 15 min. in the morning.
Not sure where to go from here will she start to "fetch" on her own if i keep at it?

Remember that force fetch is a pressure conditioning process. Far too often, trainers try to overwhelm their dogs with pressure to force compliance. I realize that's how some programs approach it. But you'll do a better job with more dogs by conditioning them to a smaller amount of pressure over more time. Let this happen. The answer is often less actual force.

EvanG

[Roffey]

I have made a couple phone calls to have some more experienced trainers help. Its complicated to ask questions on a forum when people cant see me or the dog.
Was hoping FF would go as easy as everything else has.

Is your dog shutting down because of pressure, or are you nagging the dog and it's just refusing you because you aren't applying enough pressure? This is crucial. If you can't 100% read that then find a local pro to help you.
Im sure i'm not using too much force. The dog doesnt seem to "shut down" as much as just refuses to comply and will accept pressure until the bumper goes into her mouth. more then likely im nagging her "when this is over i can go back to normal life".

Is your dog collar conditioned? It's not uncommon for a dog to just straight up not handle the ear pinch, but can handle the collar so just using the collar works better for some.
She is collar conditioned. For this you go to the collar to replace the ear pinch?
When I collar conditioned I mostly used the vibrate option and it worked well. She did not like the shock even on the lowest level. She would comply on vibrate to avoid being shocked. Was quite easy and went very well.

[Bluesky2012]

I have made a couple phone calls to have some more experienced trainers help. Its complicated to ask questions on a forum when people cant see me or the dog.
Was hoping FF would go as easy as everything else has.

Is your dog shutting down because of pressure, or are you nagging the dog and it's just refusing you because you aren't applying enough pressure? This is crucial. If you can't 100% read that then find a local pro to help you.
Im sure i'm not using too much force. The dog doesnt seem to "shut down" as much as just refuses to comply and will accept pressure until the bumper goes into her mouth. more then likely im nagging her "when this is over i can go back to normal life".

Is your dog collar conditioned? It's not uncommon for a dog to just straight up not handle the ear pinch, but can handle the collar so just using the collar works better for some.
She is collar conditioned. For this you go to the collar to replace the ear pinch?
When I collar conditioned I mostly used the vibrate option and it worked well. She did not like the shock even on the lowest level. She would comply on vibrate to avoid being shocked. Was quite easy and went very well.

You did not collar condition your dog then. Your dog does not understand pressure and is now very confused because you're applying a little pain to FORCE it to do something. I assume since you "used vibrate" then you aren't actually following a retriever training program as you should.

It sounds like your dog is in fact shutting down due to pressure. You've never applied pressure before and now your dog doesn't know how to turn the pressure off. You need to seek help from a pro, but it's not just about force fetch.

Why did you think your dog would like electric stim? That's collar conditioning! You never made your dog learn how to work through pressure, never de-bolted, you're askin for disaster. You need to seek help from a pro, learn how to do formal obedience (which your dog won't always love because it will involve pressure), then collar condition (which you need to accept. It involves pressure. It isn't fun for the dog, but is necessary for the dogs training and safety), then FORCE fetch (which as well is not going to be fun for the dog, but will help it to learn to overcome pressure and work through it).

I think you need to stop force fetch now. Because I don't think you haven't done the proper fundamentals (formal obedience correctly, collar conditioning and de-bolting) you're going to struggle a lot with it. If done right FF works wonders for a dog. If done wrong, it'll ruin it. You need the proper foundation in place to help.

[birddogger]

You did not collar condition your dog then. Your dog does not understand pressure and is now very confused because you're applying a little pain to FORCE it to do something. I assume since you "used vibrate" then you aren't actually following a retriever training program as you should.

Exactly!

Charlie

[gonehuntin']

Sounds to me like you haven't completed any step you've started: You started the ear pinch and have backed off, not finishing it. Don't go to the collar until the ear pinch is done.

The dog is NOT collar conditioned nor even close. You have to start back from square one after getting advice from a good pro or program.

Get rid of that worthless vibration mode.

[EvanG]

Sounds to me like you haven't completed any step you've started: You started the ear pinch and have backed off, not finishing it. Don't go to the collar until the ear pinch is done.

The dog is NOT collar conditioned nor even close. You have to start back from square one after getting advice from a good pro or program.

Get rid of that worthless vibration mode.

Exactly.

EvanG

[Bluesky2012]

Sounds to me like you haven't completed any step you've started: You started the ear pinch and have backed off, not finishing it. Don't go to the collar until the ear pinch is done.

The dog is NOT collar conditioned nor even close. You have to start back from square one after getting advice from a good pro or program.

Get rid of that worthless vibration mode.

Agreed. With why you'd originally said vs what we now know, the collar would further add to the confusion. Find a local pro, learn what a truly completed step on a program is, and restart from square one.