Gun Dog Forum

So I am hoping to get some advise.....today we gave our first attempt at doing a flyaway pigeon on our 6 1/2 month old FBECS and well I am pretty sure I messed it up badly. First the pigeon was so drunk that it did not flush so she picked it up and as she got almost back to me she sort of lost her grip and off the pigeon flew away (see video). After that I was genuinely worried my dog would not come back to me but she eventually did however the rest of the training session she was so excited she barely listened at all . I guess I should have thought this out more before attempting this feat but better late than never so I am asking for some advise on how I could have handled this whole thing better (for future attempts). I think things would have gone better if the pigeon would have flushed but I am not sure how to make sure that happens? Any advise would be greatly appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ool-SRg ... e=youtu.be

1. What did you do to dizzy the bird?

2. You really should get a remote launcher. This would solve the problem of her trapping the bird.

3. I've had some challenges with my pup chasing birds. He's has a VERY high prey drive and will chase a bird down 400+ yards if he thinks it's crippled. A prong collar and then an e-collar have been very useful for starting to break him from chasing birds.

1. The bird was shook by hand in a clockwise motion until it was limp.
2. I too thought a remote launcher but have read that is not a appropriate tool for a flushing dog??
3. yep the high prey drive caught me off guard... glad there are tools to help with this if I am unable to check her myself.

Next time have a dead bird or clip wing bird in your pocket. When you call the dog back in, throw it when the dog is looking at you on it's way in. You will be fine. Don't fall into the need for gadgets with a flusher, stick with birds.

Mike

ahhh having a clip wing makes so much sense to me. I had one but never thought of using it to refocus her and reward her for coming back to me after the flyaway. Exactly the kind of advise I was hoping for:)

Concur with not using a launcher with a flushing dog. It does not matter if the dog traps the bird. In fact, trapping the odd bird is a good thing as it keeps the dog from anticipating the flush.

Have you done any work to steady her up to now?

It is good to hear that her catching the bird is not the worse thing that could happen. Hopefully she learned (but probably not) to hold onto it better so it doesn't fly away after she catches it.
I have been working on steadying her on bumpers by my side and I am happy with her progress so far but I have not tried to steady her while things are moving (birds or bumpers). I figure I will start on that in the next few weeks?

chrokeva wrote:So I am hoping to get some advise.....today we gave our first attempt at doing a flyaway pigeon on our 6 1/2 month old FBECS and well I am pretty sure I messed it up badly. First the pigeon was so drunk that it did not flush so she picked it up and as she got almost back to me she sort of lost her grip and off the pigeon flew away (see video). After that I was genuinely worried my dog would not come back to me but she eventually did however the rest of the training session she was so excited she barely listened at all . I guess I should have thought this out more before attempting this feat but better late than never so I am asking for some advise on how I could have handled this whole thing better (for future attempts). I think things would have gone better if the pigeon would have flushed but I am not sure how to make sure that happens? Any advise would be greatly appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ool-SRg ... e=youtu.be

I would bet we've all had days like that. Not a big deal. Takes some practice to get good at dizzying pigeons.

I think that session went fine with what happened. The pup looked happy and excited to be out. Be prepared for more mistakes, shak'em off, and have fun at training.

Nothing is a disaster. The dog is still learning what is expected and will make mistakes. That situation, where he drops a bird, is particularly tough. These things will happen and the best thing is ignore them and move on.

chrokeva wrote:I have been working on steadying her on bumpers by my side and I am happy with her progress so far but I have not tried to steady her while things are moving (birds or bumpers). I figure I will start on that in the next few weeks?

Based on that, here's what I would do to steady a young spaniel ... learned the hard way and from people smarter than me. We advance by baby steps using a crawl-walk-run approach, rather than the run-fall-bleed approach I took when I was learning.

It's a five-step program:
1 - line steady the dog so it is rock solid with a thrown dummy at your side.
2 - steady the dog to a thrown dummy. The goal is to get the dog to stop when it is quartering and you throw a dummy. (Ideally, the dog hups to the throw dummy, but it must at least stop.) Start by throwing it behind you (or having a helper throw it behind you) so you can intercept the dog if it breaks.
3 - steadying drill with a wing-clip. (Explained below.)
4 - steadying drill with a flyaway bird.
5 - finally, quartering onto a flyaway bird.

The steadying drill

When we quarter a dog onto a flyaway bird we have little control over the situation. This drill gives you control and lets you use birds to teach the dog. Our goal is to teach the dog how we want it to respond to a bird by rewarding it with a retrieve when it does the right thing and denying the retrieve when it breaks.

Start with a wing-clip. You will need a helper, ideally. Dog is hupped about 15 yards out. Recall the dog and as the dog reaches you, your helper throws the wing clip up so that it will land behind you, while you hit the stop whistle. Since you have previously done this with dummies (step 2), the dog knows not to try and run through you to the bird. If the dog breaks, you simply intercept him and gently stop him, hup him in place and have your helper collect the bird. If the dog is steady, release him for the retrieve. He learns that doing the right thing gets him the bird and breaking means no bird.

When the dog is solid on wing-clips, move to a flyaway bird. Same setup, but you lightly dizzy a pigeon and drop it in front of you, and call the dog in when it recovers. Have a dead bird or a wing-clip handy to throw out for a retrieve so the dog is rewarded for being steady. There is no reward for breaking because the dog can't get the bird, but ideally you should be able to stop him and hup him. When you are confident he will be steady to the flush, then have a helper shoot the bird to teach him not to break at the shot. The rule is don't shoot if the dog breaks, so the retrieve is still a reward for doing the right thing. Only when the dog is steady at your feet on this drill should you plant birds and expect steadiness.

When you do start planting birds, you initially want to mark the place they're planted with flagging tape or something so you can tell exactly where they are. As the dog gets close to the flush you want to close up on the dog. The closer you are, the less likely he is to break. Carry a wing-clip or a dead bird to reward steadiness when using a flyaway bird or when the gunner misses. If the dog breaks, chase him down, take him back to where he flushed the bird and hup him there while he considers the error of his ways.

I picked this program up from a friend and it works. Much easier for the dog to advance by small steps based on things it has already learned than to suddenly put it on a bird and try to convince it not to chase.

Hope that helps.

Nothing wrong here. The pup will learn. And catching a bird just makes the flush bolder. Just keep working with him.

That's nice.

Great information!
Thank you Welsh for explaining the process of steadying a spaniel...you have no idea how helpful this is for me. I am going to print it out and start working on it right away!

RichK wrote:1. What did you do to dizzy the bird?

2. You really should get a remote launcher. This would solve the problem of her trapping the bird.

Its not a pointer. Trapping the bird is a good thing

chrokeva wrote:Great information!
Thank you Welsh for explaining the process of steadying a spaniel...you have no idea how helpful this is for me. I am going to print it out and start working on it right away!

Your dog is only 6 months, don't focus too much on steadying yet. Its fine if she chases it for miles - mine sure did. Start with wing clips and encourage her to bring them back. Then let her chase flyaways. She'll start to figure it out quickly that she can't catch em once a few get away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her chasing the bird uncontrollably at first as long as she is in a safe environment (away from cars, etc).

CDN_Cocker wrote:

RichK wrote:1. What did you do to dizzy the bird?

2. You really should get a remote launcher. This would solve the problem of her trapping the bird.

Its not a pointer. Trapping the bird is a good thing

Yea , but irrespective of that the OP got the reply that they wanted and is happy with

CDN_Cocker wrote:

chrokeva wrote:Great information!
Thank you Welsh for explaining the process of steadying a spaniel...you have no idea how helpful this is for me. I am going to print it out and start working on it right away!

Your dog is only 6 months, don't focus too much on steadying yet. Its fine if she chases it for miles - mine sure did. Start with wing clips and encourage her to bring them back. Then let her chase flyaways. She'll start to figure it out quickly that she can't catch em once a few get away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her chasing the bird uncontrollably at first as long as she is in a safe environment (away from cars, etc).

Really?
Thats fantastic advanced stuff CDN_Cocker . I would be pleased to hear how this is developed in the field with spaniels ?

CDN_Cocker wrote:

chrokeva wrote:Great information!
Thank you Welsh for explaining the process of steadying a spaniel...you have no idea how helpful this is for me. I am going to print it out and start working on it right away!

Your dog is only 6 months, don't focus too much on steadying yet. Its fine if she chases it for miles - mine sure did. Start with wing clips and encourage her to bring them back. Then let her chase flyaways. She'll start to figure it out quickly that she can't catch em once a few get away. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her chasing the bird uncontrollably at first as long as she is in a safe environment (away from cars, etc).

Again, chasing creates a bold flush... Across the pond they focus on steadying before birds... Here we like to use birds to create a bold flush before steadying. But it's your choice.

Gonna be honest polmaise - your posts are starting to get on my nerves. I am not some radical - we just train differently here. If you don't like it that's fine. And thats not to say everyone trains that way or like I do. I'm learning as I go. But for the most part we do encourage chasing initially and "pegging" birds. As mnaj stated we are looking for a bold flush. I'm going to cut this off here, I had a long day at work so my patience is probably not as sound as it usually is.

Haha Cass... Just do as I do, drink a strong Ale... Like spaniels they were born in the UK and perfected in North America

Hmmmm well there is a lot to think about here. Of course I would love to have the controls on my dog but if we can't get the birds in the air it could be a problem as well. If I start to put controls on her on the bumpers and wait on steadying her on birds and allow her to continue to chase birds.....would that work? Or would I be sending conflicting messages?

I don't think so. Dogs are smart and know the difference between bumpers and birds. It may take some more breaking later but it won't be bad. And honestly... Most dogs steady on bumpers will break on birds because of the excitement they bring.

mnaj_springer wrote:Haha Cass... Just do as I do, drink a strong Ale... Like spaniels they were born in the UK and perfected in North America

No worries there my family is from Ireland. I'm well versed in drinking a cold one (or a few) after a long day. Probably the real reason I'm worried my tongue (or I guess fingers in this case) will get away on me lol

Well, from my experience I'm not too keen on uncontrolled chasing. One reason is that you are just letting the dog do something you're going to want to stop. More importantly you're in trouble if the dog does catch a weak flyer. Been there & done that....

I'm not sure there's any real value in putting out flyaway birds to chase. It doesn't teach anything & wing-clips will encourage a bold flush. So in my view little is gained and you can make later training more difficult.

As to when to start, fundamentals are vital, as always, and rushing is the most common mistake. A dog needs a certain level of maturity before it is even capable of being steady. That program is a slow process -- getting the dog to stop to a thrown dummy can take a while. My approach would be to teach the dog to quarter and work on wing-clips while doing the initial steadying work on dummies. If the dog hunts wing-clips it will put birds in the air.

However, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Some people let their dogs chase and then steady them after the fact. Different people bring their dogs along at differing speeds: some want the dog on birds as early as possible and some think too many birds too early makes it more difficult to train the dog. So there are no clear answers for the unfortunate OP.

The most important thing, I think, is to keep it positive and not put too much pressure on the dog.

Well said Welsh

Well said indeed.
Also you are right that there is no clear answers for how I should go forward on her training. I think the best I can do is to proceed slowly and start steadying her on bumpers/clip wings. I am still not sure how to handle the control on flyaways so I think I will just keep flyaways to a minimum for now. What I know of this pup she won't be put off by steadying as she seems to look at her steadying work thus far more like a fun game than anything negative but I will keep an eye for any signs of her feeling pressure going forward.
This conversation has really opened my eyes to things I have not thought of up until now....thank you again!

chrokeva wrote:Well said indeed.
Also you are right that there is no clear answers for how I should go forward on her training. I think the best I can do is to proceed slowly and start steadying her on bumpers/clip wings. I am still not sure how to handle the control on flyaways so I think I will just keep flyaways to a minimum for now. What I know of this pup she won't be put off by steadying as she seems to look at her steadying work thus far more like a fun game than anything negative but I will keep an eye for any signs of her feeling pressure going forward.
This conversation has really opened my eyes to things I have not thought of up until now....thank you again!

Honestly it was a pretty picture though your attempts to call the dog were useless. In other words your pup look gook, you not so much! You have been giving good advise by a number spaniel folks, however IMHO there are clear answers and a path that one should move forward in the training of a pup like the one in the video.

This link is in real time and shows some technique in planting the wildly feral pigeon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYfESoT3z6w
In both cases bird flew in a direction a safe and effective shot could be taken.

Your 6 month old needs more work on simple retrieving. That is the behavior that says that when pupster goes for object you are 100% convinced that he will come directly back to you and deliver the object to hand! This very important that delivery is clearly understood before to many more birds are flushed and chased. Steadiness is a personal choice, but I highly recommend that you do that sort of advanced training with your dog!

More good advise! When I look again at the video I can clearly see that the retrieve could be the root of many of my problems. The pup has started to run past me consistently on the delivery in the past month or so and I have been letting it go because she always brings it to me eventually....this no doubt is another mistake I have made and will have to try to fix . So at the risk of sounding extremely novice (which by the way I am) where do I go from here? Up until now I have been using praise to try to get her to come straight back to me on the retrieve but it clearly is not working as it is getting pretty much the norm for her to run past me before bringing the dummy back.

So this morning I went out and really tried to figure this delivery problem out. Tried backing up to a solid object...she just ran off to my side. Then I tried running away from her and making her follow me which helped a little but still not what I was looking for. I tried the long line and of course that worked but she started to drop her dummy (definitely did not want that). So that is when it came to me to drop the dummy all together and just work on her recall. The funny thing is although I believed her to have a good recall (i.e. she always comes back to me) she would still run off to my side and behind me even without a dummy/bird. So I decided that was to be my starting point on fixing this problem. I gave her a hup walked out 30 feet or so called her in and MADE her come straight to me and sit down. After about 6 times of correcting her for being wrong she finally came in straight and sat in front of me and I was able to lavishly praise her which helped her understand. I was then able to do the same a few more times and she actually did a proper recall. Ok so what I am thinking is I will just continue to work on recall (without dummy) for about a week and then see if this improves her retrieve. Does this sound like it may work to you folks with more experience than me? I am really reaching here but thinking that it would be better to fix the retrieve without the bumper/birds involved if possible. Any advise?

If a recall is thought of as a retrieve without a retrieve article in the dogs mouth then a good retrieve delivery will depend on there being a good recall........ so I think you are taking a step in the right direction by improving the recall.

Bill T.

Tightening up on obedience can never hurt. But question... When he retrieved as a pup, what did you do when he got back: 1) grab the retrieval object and say good boy, 2) say good boy and praise him lavishly, or 3) something else?

Trekmoor wrote:If a recall is thought of as a retrieve without a retrieve article in the dogs mouth then a good retrieve delivery will depend on there being a good recall........ so I think you are taking a step in the right direction by improving the recall.

Bill T.

Exactomundo! Right on The recall is possible the most abused behavior that folks have with there pup. The behavior is never is as good as the owner thinks it is.

chrokeva wrote:So I am hoping to get some advise.....today we gave our first attempt at doing a flyaway pigeon on our 6 1/2 month old FBECS and well I am pretty sure I messed it up badly. First the pigeon was so drunk that it did not flush so she picked it up and as she got almost back to me she sort of lost her grip and off the pigeon flew away (see video). After that I was genuinely worried my dog would not come back to me but she eventually did however the rest of the training session she was so excited she barely listened at all . I guess I should have thought this out more before attempting this feat but better late than never so I am asking for some advise on how I could have handled this whole thing better (for future attempts). I think things would have gone better if the pigeon would have flushed but I am not sure how to make sure that happens? Any advise would be greatly appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ool-SRg ... e=youtu.be

What is an FBECS? If it's a flushing dog, avoid that by pulling the flight feathers. Teach your dog to catch the bird and it will run right in on them. Down the road, dizzy the bird. If the dog catch's it, no harm done. If the dog doesn't, shoot the bird for the dog. If it's a pointing breed, you seem to have had two people there. If you don't have remote traps, one person needs to be on a check cord to help the dog and the second person works the bird. Don't let a pointing breed catch a bird on the ground if you can help it, and, you can help it.

if you teach a flusher the same way you do a pointer, you'll likely end up teaching the flusher to blink. That is it will hesitate before going in for the flush. Gives the birds a sec to run out. Teach a pointer to catch birds on the ground and it could pose a real problem for you when the dog it well out of gun range.

chrokeva wrote:1. The bird was shook by hand in a clockwise motion until it was limp.
2. I too thought a remote launcher but have read that is not a appropriate tool for a flushing dog??
3. yep the high prey drive caught me off guard... glad there are tools to help with this if I am unable to check her myself.

Ah, there it is. Flushing dog. Flushing dog's catching birds on the ground is no foul. They learn to do that and think they can catch them all and they will put a rush on a bird, cause's the wild bird to flush without though of running out. You flusher catch's every bird on the ground going in and there is nothing to chase! Down the road you dizzy the bird and the dog flush's it and you shoot it, again, there is nothing to chase! if the bird is to dizzy and the dog catch's it, no harm done unless, the dog does drop the bird and it fly's away. Young dog pick's up a live bird with the flight feather's pulled and it wiggles out, it can't fly and the chase ends before it starts good.

gundogguy wrote:The behavior is never is as good as the owner thinks it is.

And it is always 8 levels worse when not coming back offers some kind of fantastic reward, such as a mouth full of warm bird that you really don't need to give up just yet if you can only ignore the big biped over there whistling and hollering....

DonF.... FBECS= Field Bred English Cocker Spaniel, aka Pocket Rocket

OK so this is day 3 of me working strictly on recalls with my 6 1/2 month old cocker and some interesting things are happening. First as I stated earlier I was having a problem with her running past me on the retrieve so I decided to take the bumper/bird out of the picture and work strictly on her recall as she seemed to be running past me on the recall as well as the retrieve. So now I am insisting she runs straight back to me and as this video shows it has turned into a game of tackle the handler for lack of a better description. My husband seems to think she is just very enthusiastic and since she is running so hard she either is going to run past me or hit me. I am just not sure what to think of it to be honest but I have to say I am glad I am not a man...yikes. Hoping that others have dealt with the same issue? I hate to discourage her enthusiastic recall but not sure that this is something that should be allowed to go on. FYI backing up as she is coming in seems to only intensify her recall and makes the "punch" even harder. As always all advice is appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EaYzrV ... e=youtu.be

Lift up your knee.

Mike

So you are saying a correction is in order? Simple enough

Reward the recall you want and ignore the recall you don't want. When my pup would run to me she didn't get a reward (praise or a piece of hotdog) until she hupped in front of me.

If you reward recall with a knee to the chest you are going to end up discouraging recall. The dog is young and exuberant. You don't want to diminish that enthusiastic recall, you want to redirect that enthusiasm. Like mnaj_springer says, reward the behaviour you want and the unwanted behaviour will fade.

chrokeva wrote:OK so this is day 3 of me working strictly on recalls with my 6 1/2 month old cocker and some interesting things are happening. First as I stated earlier I was having a problem with her running past me on the retrieve so I decided to take the bumper/bird out of the picture and work strictly on her recall as she seemed to be running past me on the recall as well as the retrieve. So now I am insisting she runs straight back to me and as this video shows it has turned into a game of tackle the handler for lack of a better description. My husband seems to think she is just very enthusiastic and since she is running so hard she either is going to run past me or hit me. I am just not sure what to think of it to be honest but I have to say I am glad I am not a man...yikes. Hoping that others have dealt with the same issue? I hate to discourage her enthusiastic recall but not sure that this is something that should be allowed to go on. FYI backing up as she is coming in seems to only intensify her recall and makes the "punch" even harder. As always all advice is appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EaYzrV ... e=youtu.be

The pup does not know her "place" she needs to learn her "place" if she does not learn her "place" she will be a mess later on to deal with. Right now your time with the dog is very helter skelter neither of you are focused on the same thing.
All training should be focused at the dog learning it's "place".
Go to youtube and type in the words Place board or place board training There you will find vids that apply to all breeds of sporting dogs watch'em all

Paul McGagh's dog out for an early exercise break the results of place board training https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--K7dMWOszQ

Have fun!
Hal

I think rewarding the good and ignoring the bad is how I will deal with it for now rather than a knee to the chest. I would prefer to keep things positive if at all possible.
I was also curious if perhaps placeboards would help. I do have three of them made but have not used them since she was 3-4 months old. Perhaps I will pull them out and start working with them on her recall.

If you have a place board that you used while teaching sit, then use it now! Place boards are incredible training tools, and will be invaluable when you steady your pup.

I have started to use the place board with my pup and have to say I am amazed at how much it has helped her delivery. My first thought to place board training was that it was some sort of training fad but now I can see it is much more than that. The place board seems to somehow take the pressure off the pup when she comes to me and now although she is still very enthusiastic she runs to her place board and sits down and waits for me to take the dummy.... really amazing in my opinion. Anyway I clearly need to figure out how to use the place board in more training applications so I am thinking of ordering the dvd from the UK on place board training the Openshaw way to get some more ideas on uses for it.
Thanks for the advise!

chrokeva wrote:I have started to use the place board with my pup and have to say I am amazed at how much it has helped her delivery. My first thought to place board training was that it was some sort of training fad but now I can see it is much more than that. The place board seems to somehow take the pressure off the pup when she comes to me and now although she is still very enthusiastic she runs to her place board and sits down and waits for me to take the dummy.... really amazing in my opinion. Anyway I clearly need to figure out how to use the place board in more training applications so I am thinking of ordering the dvd from the UK on place board training the Openshaw way to get some more ideas on uses for it.
Thanks for the advise!

Right there in California you have the place board Guru Gary Breitbarth. Look for him on face book. https://www.facebook.com/gary.breitbarth.12?fref=ts
Good guy he can show you more ways to train off the boards than any one I know. From starting to finishing the program can do it you and your dog!

Gary is the one who got me going on her on a place board as a pup. We were at his place for a meeting and he helped me with her after for a little bit.....great guy and tons of experience! I just need to get to a point that I can send her away for training for several months
She is my baby and I can't quite bring myself to do that yet .....maybe when she hits her terrible teens I will be motivated