Retriever Training Question

[Lab Commander]

Is it a good idea to hunt with a dog that is not fully steady or not completed with force fetch?

[gundogguy]

Is it a good idea to hunt with a dog that is not fully steady or not completed with force fetch?

I would not hunt my dog unless they were steady and understood that a delivery to hand is part of their job description. But that's me.
By your nick name and question I assume you have a retriever. Retrieving to hand is not the dogs idea it is ours so it is our job to instruct the dog on that part of the task.
As far as steadiness concerned if allowed to break and run in or chase on their own one is only setting up issues that will be more difficult to change/fix/train, steadiness as time goes on. In the case of marking the fall, true marking abilities can not be developed by the dog that is breaking and running in. I truly believe if you train your dog to be the complete package, steady and retrieve to hand the birds will come.

[EvanG]

[DELETE] Duplicate post

[EvanG]

Is it a good idea to hunt with a dog that is not fully steady or not completed with force fetch?

No. Not in either case. Finish FF, finish formal Basics (of which steadiness is a part), and hunt next season with a dog that has the tools to do his life's work. To do less is to do your dog a disservice.

EvanG

[CDN_Cocker]

Is it a good idea? No. Does it happen? Yep, probably the vast majority of people with "hunting dogs" that are not dog training minded like most folks on here. For every one guy that trains (or tries to train) to a standard there are 10 other guys with labs (or whatever breed but labs are a common one) that just go out and let the dog learn as it goes. Whether or not it knows what it is doing, or delivers the birds well is subjective. There are tons of guys that get excited if their dog brings back a couple ducks/birds to the general area they are in.

[Neil]

I never play tricks on my dog under the name of proofing them, but we will hunt with any dog. It is up to my dogS to be steady with no concern to what another dog might do.

Actually it is insulting to the other handler and dog to suggest they are not worthy to hunt with you, train your dog.

[mnaj_springer]

I'm almost certain there were assumptions made by folks before answering you... Assumption #1: You own a lab. Assumption #2: you will be hunting waterfowl. Assumption #3: you want a non-slip retriever. At least these were the assumptions I automatically made... If so, listen to all of the previous posters, especially EvanG... he may know a thing or two about retrievers.

If those assumptions are wrong, maybe you should clarify. I know that I don't steady my spaniels until after a season hunted over them to help develop a bold flush, but that's me. Now that I stirred this pot (slightly), anything new?

[gundogguy]

Is it a good idea to hunt with a dog that is not fully steady or not completed with force fetch?

I
By your nick name and question I assume you have a retriever.
.

On the forum many "assumptions"' have to be made, Neil even "assumed" the OP was referring to hunting with another dog that the training was not finished on. My assumption was that the OP was referring to hunting his dog which has some unfinished issues. Personally it does not matter to me if he has a retriever or a spaniel My thoughts would be the same. "train the dog there will be plenty of time for the dog to handle the work/ birds properly.
Over the years I have learned that the only times that folks take and heed my advice on a subject is when they have to pay for the information.
Free advise usually goes into file 13.

[EvanG]

I appreciate your points. It's not often safe to assume anything in these discussions. But this time we have a guy posting under "Lab Commander", and asking a question titled "Retriever Training Question", about hunting a dog that is not finished with FF, nor steady. I confess I made an assumption that he's proposing to hunt with his Labrador Retriever, and doing so with an under prepared dog. No harm/no foul (fowl? LOL).

How about it Lab Commander?

EvanG

[Neil]

It seems I may have misunderstood the question/situation, sorry.

[gonehuntin']

When you actually HUNT and untrained or partially trained dog and do NOT reinforce or correct mistakes, you then reinforce the mistake making finish training far more difficult. If you try to correct a partially trained dog in the field, you run the risk of making him apprehensive of hunting situations. Hence, you don't hunt him until all BASICS are in place.

[polmaise]

Over the years I have learned that the only times that folks take and heed my advice on a subject is when they have to pay for the information.
Free advise usually goes into file 13.

[Neil]

When you actually HUNT and untrained or partially trained dog and do NOT reinforce or correct mistakes, you then reinforce the mistake making finish training far more difficult. If you try to correct a partially trained dog in the field, you run the risk of making him apprehensive of hunting situations. Hence, you don't hunt him until all BASICS are in place.

90% of the dogs I see in the Field are partially trained, I have had Field Champions that were still a work in progress. And there are a lot of guys enjoying and killing birds over dogs that we would consider untrained. You are setting a pretty high bar.

I hunt them from when they are 6 months old, training as we go, doing my best to keep it positive.

[duckn66]

I wouldn't hunt a dog that wasn't steady. A dog busting out of a blind between legs of people who just finished shooting, and guns may not even be on safe yet is a real safety issue. I would rather have the dog anchored down where it can see the falls if you must hunt with a dog that is not steady. Many opinions on FF and I'm not even going to get into that part.

But steadiness, I feel very strong about that. I once heard of a dog that was not steady break, and jump into an icy river to retrieve a duck that fell on an ice shelf, dog got swept downstream under the ice shelf and drowned. All could have been avoided if the dog was steady or at least tied down to prevent it from breaking. Please do NOT hunt with a dog that is not steady. It's dangerous for both man and the dog.

[gundogguy]

I wouldn't hunt a dog that wasn't steady. A dog busting out of a blind between legs of people who just finished shooting, and guns may not even be on safe yet is a real safety issue. I would rather have the dog anchored down where it can see the falls if you must hunt with a dog that is not steady. Many opinions on FF and I'm not even going to get into that part.

But steadiness, I feel very strong about that. I once heard of a dog that was not steady break, and jump into an icy river to retrieve a duck that fell on an ice shelf, dog got swept downstream under the ice shelf and drowned. All could have been avoided if the dog was steady or at least tied down to prevent it from breaking. Please do NOT hunt with a dog that is not steady. It's dangerous for both man and the dog.

Amen to that! I know of two dead hunters and two dead dogs 4 separate incidences, because of unsteady duck dogs here in Michigan and this state is not a huge duck hunting state, like some of the states on the flyways. Steady your dog it only pays a lifetime of dividends and rewards for your efforts.

[gonehuntin']

When you actually HUNT and untrained or partially trained dog and do NOT reinforce or correct mistakes, you then reinforce the mistake making finish training far more difficult. If you try to correct a partially trained dog in the field, you run the risk of making him apprehensive of hunting situations. Hence, you don't hunt him until all BASICS are in place.

90% of the dogs I see in the Field are partially trained, I have had Field Champions that were still a work in progress. And there are a lot of guys enjoying and killing birds over dogs that we would consider untrained. You are setting a pretty high bar.

I hunt them from when they are 6 months old, training as we go, doing my best to keep it positive.

You didn't read or maybe understand the post. I stressed the BASICS should be in place. I consider basics to be unflinching obedience, finished ff, steady at blind, work to whistle in field. A four month gun dog course. When a dog has had these few basic things instilled in him, he becomes a safer and more enjoyable dog in the field.

[EvanG]

When you actually HUNT and untrained or partially trained dog and do NOT reinforce or correct mistakes, you then reinforce the mistake making finish training far more difficult. If you try to correct a partially trained dog in the field, you run the risk of making him apprehensive of hunting situations. Hence, you don't hunt him until all BASICS are in place.

I largely agree. The better trainers of retrievers follow a standard course of skills called Basics. That standard was set by Rex Carr. I don't know of an A-list pro who does not do this, with only a single exception. It's a 6 month course that begins when the dog is 6 months old. Easy math.

The components of Basics in order

1) “Here”
2) “Heel & Sit”
3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8 ) Single tee
9) Double tee
10) Water tee with Swim-by

EvanG

[EvanG]

When you actually HUNT and untrained or partially trained dog and do NOT reinforce or correct mistakes, you then reinforce the mistake making finish training far more difficult. If you try to correct a partially trained dog in the field, you run the risk of making him apprehensive of hunting situations. Hence, you don't hunt him until all BASICS are in place.

I largely agree. The better trainers of retrievers follow a standard course of skills called Basics. That standard was set by Rex Carr. I don't know of an A-list pro who does not do this, with only a single exception. It's a 6 month course that begins when the dog is 6 months old. Easy math.

The components of Basics in order

1) “Here”
2) “Heel & Sit”
3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8 ) Single tee
9) Double tee
10) Water tee with Swim-by

EvanG

[Neil]

While true I was thinking of pointers and flushers in my response, nearly ever duck blind made in Arkansas has a loop for a teether and there are lots of trees in the flooded timber. We use stake outs for geese and dove. So I am not advocating dogs running amuck.

And I am not refuting it is good advice, just there are lot of folks safely having fun with untrained dogs. I think we as experienced, serious dog trainers try to apply our standards to all.

[ezzy333]

And I am not refuting it is good advice, just there are lot of folks safely having fun with untrained dogs. I think we as experienced, serious dog trainers try to apply our standards to all.
Neil GDF Junkie Posts: 2160Joined: 29 Jun 2009, 13:46Location: Central Arkansas

Oh so true when in reality we are a small minority.

Ezzy