Whoa and steadiness help

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chrisss
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Whoa and steadiness help

Post by chrisss » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:59 pm

How does everyone teach whoa and steadiness? When my dog is on point he only allows me to walk up about 15 ft them he flushes. Seems like he's afraid of me pulling him off the birds or he knows not to let me close. Any help would be much appreciated

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:21 pm

chris -

Without knowing more about your situation, how old the dog is, how much and what kind of training it has had, I can only give you general advice. Flushing before being released is not acceptable to me but just how you should proceed depends on a lot of things, most especially the dog's age and training level.

First things first... you should not have allowed the dog to bust birds in the first place. The very first bird it busted should have triggered a correction. The more times you have allowed this, the more difficult it will be to correct.

I would use a 2 pronged approach. I would do heel/whoa work in the yard and make the dog stop and grow roots, no matter what I did, including throwing pigeons.
In the field you could do one of two thing, or you could do both.

First you could(and should)refrain from shooting any birds the dog flushes. If the dog busts a bird...no joy. Then, after the bird flies away I would pick the dog up(physically...off the ground), put it back on point(gently) and style it up and flush around the dog. If the dog so much as moves a toenail, pick it up(off the ground ) and put it back down on point, again gently, with stroking. I put the front of the dog down and then slowly lower the back end down with support. until the feet touch the ground/ I have seen folks pick a dog up by its collar and tail and then drop the dog. That is wrong and you can spook a dog, causing more(and sometimes worse) problems than you started with. Be gentle...firm, but gentle. Persistent...but gentle.

The other thing you can do is to run the dog with a checkcord on and when the dog is on point, walk up and grab the checkcord. if the dog goes in to bust the bird, pop the checkcord and stop the dog in its tracks.

I use remote launchers for this training. Once the dog establishes point...it had better grow roots. If it so mush as shuffles its feet...the bird is gone and the dog gets a pop from the checkcord.

RayG

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by DonF » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:37 pm

Sounds like your walking up to your dog and past him, don't do that. Go around him to the front and come in on him. Keep your eyes on him and if he looks like he might move, you stop and back away. Your racing him to the bird it sounds like to me and he's not having it. after you back away, come in at a different angle but where you can keep your eye on him. He does it again, you back out and start over.
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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by Donnytpburge » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:10 pm

How close is the dog to the bird when it points?

Is the dog flagging its tail, or blinking the bird?

Has the dog ever caught a bird?

Db

chrisss
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Post by chrisss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:48 am

So the past weekend I took him to the game farm and he caught three birds. Bad mistake on my part should have never took him there without being whoa broken. Wasn't expecting the birds there that easy to catch. But I put him away after the three. He likes to point very close to the bird but this weekend im putting him on wild pheasants and hopefully this will fix that right up. I have been trying to whoa train him. I use a suitcase style with the e collar. Every time I whoa him I pull up and simulate. Seems to be working but when I try without the leash he just sits instead of whoaing. Am I going to fast? How should I approach this?

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Re:

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:44 am

chrisss wrote:So the past weekend I took him to the game farm and he caught three birds. Bad mistake on my part should have never took him there without being whoa broken. Wasn't expecting the birds there that easy to catch. But I put him away after the three. He likes to point very close to the bird but this weekend im putting him on wild pheasants and hopefully this will fix that right up. I have been trying to whoa train him. I use a suitcase style with the e collar. Every time I whoa him I pull up and simulate. Seems to be working but when I try without the leash he just sits instead of whoaing. Am I going to fast? How should I approach this?
Be careful. You are indeed moving fast and putting pressure on at a very critical point. I will assume you are placing the e-collar high up on the dog's neck. Stimulating a dog around birds is a very dangerous thing to do. It can have all sorts of negative repercussions. Again...be careful. Watch your dog closely. Read its reactions.

I personally do not use an e-collar on a dog when it is pointing. I much prefer a checkcord and, at most, a prong collar. I also do not verbally whoa the dog. I do a ton of yardwork with heel/whoa drills to get the dog to stop n signal in the yard. In the field, I want the scent or sight of the bird to replace, completely replace, the verbal whoa cue. It sounds to me like you may have skipped that transition step. If so, you need to back up and put that transition in the dog's head.

THE SCENT or the sight of a bird should scream WHOA to the dog...you need to stay out of it as much as is possible because it HAS to be between the dog and the bird if it is going to work. You need to be silent and keep you hands still. Let the bird school the dog.

I suggest that you go to the field with a bag of birds or some remote release traps and do some stop to flush drills. This is a much lower pressure way to get across the "stop when you see the bird" concept to the dog. I would also lose the suitcase setup and just go and style the dog up. I ALWAYS prefer to put my hands on the dog and stroke it, position it and reassure it with my hands .

To me, the e-collar around the neck is a NO type of cue. I use it as a correction tool. If the dog stops and points... I do not stimulate. Again the sight or scent of the bird should be the thing that screams WHOA to the dog, not the collar or checkcord or your voice. The whoa has got to be between the dog and the bird...or you may develop a robot instead of a bird dog.

If the dog roads in, I use the prong collar and checkcord to stop the dog and simultaneously launch the bird, or toss it from my hand. If the dog breaks and chases, I initially use the checkcord and prong collar and LATER, when te dog is off the checkcord...will use the e-collar on the neck if the dog breaks and chases. I do it this way because the dog already knows its job is to point and stand...no matter what. If it breaks when it knows better, that is an obedience issue and the collar is used for correction.

I recently spent some time with a pro and learned how to use a collar on the flank to develop a dog. it works and works very well. BUT... I DO NOT suggest that you try this without being schooled in its proper use. Something about the stimulation coming from the flank point of contact does not trigger the same kind of negative response as the neck point of contact, but I repeat...it is a technique that you need to be schooled in by someone who knows its use.

If you have wild birds available, (as it sounds)... you can do the stop to flush thing relatively easily. With the collar on the dog's neck, when it busts a wild bird, just nick the dog with a low power stim. If it continues to chase, repeat the low level nick about once every second. SAY NOTHING. You may need to have a fair number of these contacts before the dog gets the idea, but do not lose patience and do not ramp up the stim. Keep it at a low level and keep your mouth shut. The dog will figure it out and when it does, a pat on the flank and a good dog will let the dog know that works for you too. Don't over praise the dog for doing what it was bred to do. That can get them excited and mess them up.

Patience...is a virtue I personally do not have enough of, but I am still working at it. Patience and persistence will get you there.

RayG

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by DonF » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:51 am

What your dog won't do in the training field, it won't do out of the field on pen raised or wild birds. Slow down!
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Post by chrisss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:52 am

Ray the whoa training is still just at home with no birds yet.

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:27 pm

chris -

I apologize for being unclear. WHOA is an obedience command...pure and simple. It has zero to do about birds. it has everything to do about stopping and standing, for as long as you want it to...until physically or verbally released.

That is whoa in the yard. it has nothing whatsoever to do about birds.

if your dog is sitting on whoa, I suggest you start doing heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long. When you walk, the dog heels. When you stop the dog stops and stands. If the dog tries to sit, you step off again before it can rock back. I use a version of the Smith wonder lead, but you can use a looped checkcord, as Mr. Long suggests, or a prong collar or a pinch collar. It is all about timing.

Eventually the dog will make the connection between the obedience command that has been drilled in the yard and the point of the bird in the field. I prefer to install the whoa in the yard before I take the dog into the field, because it is simpler, easier and faster, but you can indeed do it other ways. It just takes longer and(usually) requires more pressure on the dog.

That is why I suggested stop to flush work. The way you are proceeding, stop to flush training can help to knit the two concepts together in the dog's mind.

Hope it works out for you. Good luck.

RayG

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by Mumpy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:01 pm

RayGubernat wrote:chris -
I suggest you start doing heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long. When you walk, the dog heels. When you stop the dog stops and stands. If the dog tries to sit, you step off again before it can rock back. I use a version of the Smith wonder lead, but you can use a looped checkcord, as Mr. Long suggests, or a prong collar or a pinch collar. It is all about timing.
^^THIS^^
This is exactly how I taught Knox how to Whoa. Look at it this way, you have to teach him "Heel" anyway, so combine the two. I used the Delmar Smith Wonder Lead and took Knox on "Heel" walks 3 times a day and during those walks I would just stop and when he would stop, I would give the command "Whoa". After a couple of weeks doing this I was able to apply tension on the lead while saying "whoa" and then walk around him. Soon after that he will learn that Whoa means stop. Once he learns "Whoa" means stop then you can begin reinforcing it and proofing "Whoa"

I think you are also going way to fast and should go back to the basics and teach this command as an obedience command.
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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by aulrich » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:40 pm

This is the spot where , it should be said to pick a system and follow it. Since you are whoa'ing your dog already look up "Perfection Kennels Perfect Start/Perfect finish) it is on gundog supply. it takes the kernel that is whoa and overlays birds to it.

So with that system the first step after the dog knows whoa (without birds the dog whoas at a distance in the field , stop on a dime sort of thing)

1 With the dog on a cc walk them generally down wind, give the whoa command
2. Helper walks in front of the dog (yes down wind so the dog cannot smell the birds) helper tosses a pigeon (start at a distance to reduce temptation)
3. As the bird flies off you give the whoa command and help the dog to stay whoa'd (cc + ecollar) and eventually as you fine tune a setback.
4. Toss a couple more birds from that spot.
5. heel the dog to a different location , toss more birds

Repeat the drill until the dog does not move a foot and you can do it in a few different locations. also using your remote launcher walk close by ( 5'-10 ')on the up wind side the dog should stop without a whoa command. I would do that as a dill in concert with the hand tossed birds, the surprise factor can trigger a chase.

IIRC this is the general work plan for the perfect finish that will get you to steady to shot and fall

Dog stands and watches birds flying away no scent
Dog stands and watches birds flying away on point
Dog stands and watches birds flying away no scent + gun
Dog stands and watches birds flying away on point + gun
Dog stands and watches birds Falling no scent
Dog stands and watches birds Falling on point

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by Fun dog » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:26 pm

Get the perfect start/finish dvd. Just don't move on too fast. Then go to one of their clinics if you can possibly swing it. Jon is magic with the dogs and pretty amazing with the owners as well.

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by JAG06 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:08 pm

If you can walk up to the dog and he does not flush until you are 10-15 feet away, then IMO he is ready to learn whoa. In my book you have done everything right.If he caught a couple birds, you just have to put him on more birds until he holds again( until you can walk up until you are 10-15 feet away). Then is the time to do the yard work. This way you develop a dog, let him teach himself to be a hunting dog, use cover, ie most of what a dog has to learn without the stress of corrections on birds.

You are getting so much more out of your dogs potential doing it this way then to start with all kinds of restraints and negatives in the dogs introduction to birds. I would also recommend you teach your dog to handle before you make him steady. That way the pressure you put on him to handle he will take much better, as the largest reward for a bird dog is birds. And when you teach him to handle before you have to enforce steady, then the birds are a totally positive experience for the dog. Without woa, pressure etc etc etc

This way you keep much more of your dogs potential, teach him to be a bird dog first - that is the important part. When he points by himself and hold until you come close, then he is ready for woa. Then you can put pressure when on birds, because the behavior is established naturally, not forced upon the dog. Of course woa you teach in the yard, then I always do with belly collar in yard. Then when he stops wherever in yard on command, he understands correction for woa, when after command you can not make him move even pulling him on a line - then you put it together in the field.

Then you have a dog that has started pointing by himself first, with no pressure. Then he learns in the yard woa real good, he knows why he is corrected and how he can turn the pressure off by doing the right thing. Then you have a dog you can put pressure on woa with the collar(around belly, not same place as for handling) and he will not blink birds.

It all comes down to a solid foundation on game birds before any formal woa, and on birds in natural places, not only singles. Dog must learn to hunt first.

And just remember there is no dog ever in history that "hunts for you " - then border collies would be the best bird dogs (-: They hunt for themselves, that is why they are hunting dogs - it is not a social function. So therefore the reward that matters is birds, for handling and any obedience.

Rgds,Jon

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Post by chrisss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:33 pm

Thanks guys this is very helpful

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Re:

Post by Pepper » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:39 pm

chrisss wrote:So the past weekend I took him to the game farm and he caught three birds. Bad mistake on my part should have never took him there without being whoa broken. Wasn't expecting the birds there that easy to catch. But I put him away after the three. He likes to point very close to the bird but this weekend im putting him on wild pheasants and hopefully this will fix that right up. I have been trying to whoa train him. I use a suitcase style with the e collar. Every time I whoa him I pull up and simulate. Seems to be working but when I try without the leash he just sits instead of whoaing. Am I going to fast? How should I approach this?
Teach the command first and when they understand the command, then use the e-collar. You need to find out the threshold needed to change the behavior using an e-collar. If it is too high, dog will shutdown, if it is too low, then you are nagging. :)

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by setterpoint » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:38 pm

all are good advise but don't forget to let your dog have some fun. don't just work on whoa and the put the dog up let him run and have some fun to. in fact I would let the dog run and play first then work on commands. seems like they respond better to me .give this a try if it don't seem to make any diff. you haven't lost nothing

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Re: Whoa and steadiness help

Post by Pepper » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:55 pm

setterpoint wrote:all are good advise but don't forget to let your dog have some fun. don't just work on whoa and the put the dog up let him run and have some fun to. in fact I would let the dog run and play first then work on commands. seems like they respond better to me .give this a try if it don't seem to make any diff. you haven't lost nothing
I agree with you. Per advice given to me here. I am exposing my pup to the environment and birds just about every other day except yesterday. We hit a record low with 20 to 40 below zero temps with the the wind factor.. I love hunting, but I would also want to keep my pup alive. No bird is worth the risk of losing my pup. So instead, she was close to the pellet stove that day. LOL :)

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