From Training to Actual Hunting

Post Reply
User avatar
CTPaul
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Connecticut

From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by CTPaul » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:31 am

The start of my official hunting season will begin on 10/12 with a trip to Vermont and then the CT seasons open up the following weekend. With the hunting season so close I could use some recommendations on taking the dog from the training field to his first days in the hunting field.

Here is a little background in where my dog is at in his training:
He is going to be 14 months old at the start of the season and has been training following the PSPF program since spring. He is currently steady to wing in the training field but I don't expect he will be reliable to shot by the opener. He hunts hard, is bold, and has a natural steadiness so far.

I will hunt him alone for three or 4 trips before introducing another dog and will be steering away from the crowds.

The questions I have are in regards to what corrections to make around birds.

If he holds point and allows me to flush I'm planning on shooting that bird. If he breaks before the shot or after the shot how should I correct him? Do I just use the ecollar stimulation and stop him or should I stop him with the Ecollar and return him to the spot of infraction. Again, I'm not sure he will have mastered steady to shot by the opener so should I even worry about that for this year?

I've put a lot of effort into him this year so I don't want to screw it up while hunting.

Thanks in advance!
Paul

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:49 pm

Lots of folk don't want their dog steady to flush. They believe that the dog needs to go right on the shot so as to mark the fall better.

I want my dog steady to flush as I don't want to make a mistake , and accidently shoot my dog jumping up at a close bird. Things can happen when the adrenalin is pumping.
Your choice.

PS I'm assuming you aren't also testing/trialing where stop to flush is required.
.................

As usual, I thought Ray said it well:

"I hunted for years behind dogs that were staunch only. They would find and hold birds...for as long as it took me to get there, but once the bird hit the air, the dog was off to the races. I was, and still am... fine with that for the kind of hunting I do.

I do enjoy a dog that is steady to wing, and shot, and fall...but keeping dogs that way can be a gigantic PIA and can, for me, take some of the enjoyment out of the hunt, because you can never really get out of training mode and relax." quote
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1917
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:35 pm

Ain't that the truth ! I always begin by training for steadiness to flush, to shot and to fall of game but unless I make an effort to maintain that steadiness it usually lapses rather quickly ! Some of my dogs have remained steady for their entire lives but very , very few of them !

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
mm
Rank: Champion
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:12 am
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by mm » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:57 pm

I have one that is steady to wing shot and stands while I pick up the bird and than come back to her and release her. If I cant find the bird she will find it and point it dead. I enjoy hunting with her the most. I did not hunt her until she was 3 and for the first three years of her life she was drilled constantly to be steady to wing and shot. I have had many placements in trials with her including 5 this year. So it can be done.

I have one who has hunted from when she was a pup and had birds shot over her in all siduations. She is always steady to wing and shot in training and in trials she is hit or miss. She starts out steady at the beginning of hunting season but after a few days its a crap shoot. one day steady to wing and shot one day steady to wing and next day chasing away. I bring her back and make her stand. When she busts I can yell at her to stay and she will stop and stand. The thing is she is 8.5 years old and she is having the time of her life she loves it so much I cant get mad and she always by hook or crook winds up with birds shot over her.

If you want a perfect dog you can rely on you should wait until you have one and then hunt it. But life is short and if you hunt your dog now I would at the least only shoot pointed birds you may give up a lot of shots the first year but you will still have fun and in later years your dog will be reliable and you will have many pleasant hunting trips.
mm

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by gundogguy » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:40 pm

Sharon wrote:Lots of folk don't want their dog steady to flush. They believe that the dog needs to go right on the shot so as to mark the fall better.

I want my dog steady to flush as I don't want to make a mistake , and accidently shoot my dog jumping up at a close bird. Things can happen when the adrenalin is pumping.
Your choice.

PS I'm assuming you aren't also testing/trialing where stop to flush is required.
.................

As usual, I thought Ray said it well:

"I hunted for years behind dogs that were staunch only. They would find and hold birds...for as long as it took me to get there, but once the bird hit the air, the dog was off to the races. I was, and still am... fine with that for the kind of hunting I do.

I do enjoy a dog that is steady to wing, and shot, and fall...but keeping dogs that way can be a gigantic PIA and can, for me, take some of the enjoyment out of the hunt, because you can never really get out of training mode and relax." quote
This may not be part of the thread but I do take exception to some of those concepts.
Dogs that are running in at the shot are NOT marking the fall of the bird, they are running in, period. For a dog to truly develop marking abilities they must first be steady to wing and shot. Then learn based on their genome to develop the natural marking abilities they may possess. Marking is a intuitive behavior that must be develop.
Concerning training "mode" that is when I truly relax when I'm training and maintaining standards. Allowing standards to fall apart just in the name of having fun hunting would be very stressful to me.
Standards being those behaviors that the dog has learned and that should be maintained. Teach, maintain standards, reinforce!
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

User avatar
Irishwhistler
Rank: Champion
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:41 pm
Location: LAB LAND

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Irishwhistler » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:11 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Sharon wrote:Lots of folk don't want their dog steady to flush. They believe that the dog needs to go right on the shot so as to mark the fall better.

I want my dog steady to flush as I don't want to make a mistake , and accidently shoot my dog jumping up at a close bird. Things can happen when the adrenalin is pumping.
Your choice.

PS I'm assuming you aren't also testing/trialing where stop to flush is required.
.................

As usual, I thought Ray said it well:

"I hunted for years behind dogs that were staunch only. They would find and hold birds...for as long as it took me to get there, but once the bird hit the air, the dog was off to the races. I was, and still am... fine with that for the kind of hunting I do.

I do enjoy a dog that is steady to wing, and shot, and fall...but keeping dogs that way can be a gigantic PIA and can, for me, take some of the enjoyment out of the hunt, because you can never really get out of training mode and relax." quote
This may not be part of the thread but I do take exception to some of those concepts.
Dogs that are running in at the shot are NOT marking the fall of the bird, they are running in, period. For a dog to truly develop marking abilities they must first be steady to wing and shot. Then learn based on their genome to develop the natural marking abilities they may possess. Marking is a intuitive behavior that must be develop.
Concerning training "mode" that is when I truly relax when I'm training and maintaining standards. Allowing standards to fall apart just in the name of having fun hunting would be very stressful to me.
Standards being those behaviors that the dog has learned and that should be maintained. Teach, maintain standards,
reinforce!


Gundogguy,
Well said and I fully agree.

Cheers,
IRISHWHISTLER

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by DonF » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:14 pm

Do yourself and your dog a favor and require the same performance from him when hunting as you do in training. Don't change the rules to make hunting easier for you. Whatever your rules in the training field, don't change them in the hunting field, you would be sending mixed signals to the dog. If he hasn't been on game birds or wild game birds, he's gonna need to adjust, let him and don't change the rules. Take a bit but he'll be fine.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

User avatar
CTPaul
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Connecticut

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by CTPaul » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:06 am

Thanks all. I appreciate the feedback. While I don't intend to trial I do want this dog to be a lot better trained than my last.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:23 am

CTPaul -

Don said it well...require the same performance hunting as you would training...ESPECIALLY for a young dog. I do agree with that. I have actually found it easier to require a dog to be steady to wing and shot as a youngster and train to that level. As the dog gets older and gains experience, if it is not competitive, I may let the training slip a little, because taking a few steps or busting a bird in the hunting field is not such a big deal...to me.

Personally, I would hunt your dog with a trailing check cord...not a long one, but something on the order of 15-20 ft. so I could get hold of it as I approached the dog. Make sure it is stiff and at least 7/16" thick so it lays on the ground when the dog is running. A light whippy cord will be up in the air and if it gets caught on something can really jerk your dog around, possibly causing injury. This recommendation is based on where I perceive your dog to be based on your comments. It will allow you to control the youngster during the flush and shot and make any corrections much simpler. obviously, if the cover is thick and gnarly, the check cord will get hung up a lot and might not be the best idea.

I would caution against using the e-collar around birds, especially when the point of contact is the neck. I would use it as a last resort, but it is not and would not be my first choice. a neck mounted e-collar is for obedience corrections...at least the way I use it. I prefer to get my hands on the dog. I am just more comfortable with that kind of correction/guidance.

Several pros I know, use a flank mounted e-collar around birds, at very low stim levels, but... you gotta know what you are doing. Someone has got to show you that technique.

I would also continue to do yardwork, like heel/whoa drills, to keep the connection fresh between the obedience aspect of the training in the yard and the performance required in the field. I might even do a few heel/whoa drills in the field before I cut the dog loose to hunt. It is still a very young dog and will need a lot of encouragement and guidance and positive experiences.

If you want the dog steady to wing and shot...then yes, by all means physically pick the dog up and put it back, style it up and make it stand there. I used to bring the young dog all the way back to the spot of the infraction and set them up there, but several pro trainers have stated that is not entirely necessary. I have tried that and they are correct. If you take the dog off its feet, bring it back part way and then set it up, that accomplishes the purpose...AND it is easier on this old man's back. :lol: :lol:

There are different schools of thought on steady to wing and shot and marking and such. I never felt my hunting dogs needed to mark all that well since they were usually on the shot bird a couple of seconds after it fell from the sky, since they were allowed to break at flush... but to each their own. your dog...your standards. There are situations such as hunting covey type birds where a steady dog will get you a second shot at late rising birds or birds farther out that will flush wild at the approach of the running dog. A steady dog will also not chase a bird off a cliff. It really depends on what you are hunting, where you are hunting and how you like to hunt.

As I said, if you are going to test or trial your dog, they MUST be steady. If you are going to hunt them, it is what works for you. If you are going to use the dog as a guide dog in a preserve setting or going to hunt with multiple hunters, having the dog steady until a shot is fired might be a good thing from a safety standpoint.

Sorry for being so long winded. Hope some of this makes sense to you.


Good luck to you both.

RayG

User avatar
CTPaul
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Connecticut

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by CTPaul » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:40 am

Thanks for the advice Ray and I appreciate the thorough and we'll crafted response. That's why I'm on this forum. I don't have a lot of time to spend with local guys so it's good to be able to consult with the folks like you and others on the forum.

So far I am pleased with the dogs performance and I think I've done things mostly correct up to this point. I'm willing to treat the first year as a training season I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

At what point would you feel comfortable making the transition away from the CC? What would be that milestone?

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:09 pm

CTPaul wrote:Thanks for the advice Ray and I appreciate the thorough and we'll crafted response. That's why I'm on this forum. I don't have a lot of time to spend with local guys so it's good to be able to consult with the folks like you and others on the forum.

So far I am pleased with the dogs performance and I think I've done things mostly correct up to this point. I'm willing to treat the first year as a training season I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

At what point would you feel comfortable making the transition away from the CC? What would be that milestone?
When the dog stands there high and tight, with the cord just laying there, that is when you start counting. A couple or three outings with solid points and steady through wing and shot and you can start taking the cord off in the middle of the outing...but you will have it handy if the youngster regresses. Watch the dog. Watch its body language and watch its eyes. It will tell you what to do and when to do it if you know how to read their language.


Do not be in a hurry. Better later and no regressing than sooner and have to go back. Positive reinforcement trumps negative pressure...just about every time.

RayG

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by gundogguy » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:39 am

Dogs that are running in at the shot are NOT marking the fall of the bird, they are running in, period. For a dog to truly develop marking abilities they must first be steady to wing and shot. Then learn based on their genome to develop the natural marking abilities they may possess. Marking is a intuitive behavior that must be develop.
Concerning training "mode" that is when I truly relax when I'm training and maintaining standards. Allowing standards to fall apart just in the name of having fun hunting would be very stressful to me.
Standards being those behaviors that the dog has learned and that should be maintained. Teach, maintain standards, reinforce![/quote]

After writing this I thought would it not be good to have such a video of the unsteady dog and the steady dog. To be able to demonstrate the marking ability of the steady dog vs the unsteady.
Low and behold a situation presented it self at training class Saturday 9-27. When class began this whole subject was not on my mind, it did not become apparent until I started to review some of the vids that I realize that I had these examples. Two Cockers bitches about the same age 7-8 yrs of age both have about the same "hunting experiences" in their life times. However the 1st cocker in the video has an abundantly more training experience, having gone through the steading process at a 1.5 yrs of age. The 2nd Cocker, in the video started some 6.5 years ago, though was not allowed to gone on with training, though was hunted each year after being started.

In the video the 1st Cocker sorts out a tricky retrieve off the edge of the field down in the swamp and pucker brush. The mark was about 65 yrds from where she flushed the bird
In her first "bite" of the cover she came up just a wee bit short of the mark, her training and conditioning taught her to take a 2nd "bite" of that nasty cover and she came back successfully with the bird. The owner/handle held his ground and did not assist his dog in any way, his little girl did it all on her own, because of her training and conditioning.
The 2nd Cocker came in for pre-hunting conditioning and was available for class this day. on the bird she flushed,ran in and chased to the last point that she saw the bird at that point the bird turned hard to the left it was at that point in flight line that the chasing dog lost the bird, as you will see we moved up to the mark and assisted the dog in finding the bird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY1-s_Nutx0
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:20 am

You are making way too broad of a statement to be backed up by a single video with way too many variable to begin with. I have found that size of the dog compared to height of the cover makes a huge difference as does the type of bird and the individual dog. I do know my experience with pheasants is just the opposite of what you are stating and the dogs that break and get the head start find more birds a lot quicker than the steady dogs. But even then there is a total difference in dogs which is the biggest factor.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Grange
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:24 pm
Location: Green Bay, WI

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Grange » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:05 am

I like to combine the two in a way. In fact I still do it even though my setter is broke. I will take my blank pistol with me when we go hunting. When I'm working a grouse I will try to shoot it if my dog's manners are good with the flush. If she would break after the shot I will whoa her and move her back past where she was on point and send my lab in for the retrieve. If she has breach in manners before the shot or I have no good shot I use my blank pistol instead and make any necessary corrections. If everything goes well I will release her for the retrieve. If it is a woodcock I just use my blank pistol or occasionally shoot into the ground (I think this help with keeping the dog on "its toes") since I don't care to eat woodcock. This works well for me. This past weekend we grouse and woodcock both days and since I only had one shooting opportunity I only fired the shotgun once (missed :evil: ), but reloaded the pistol multiple times.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Sharon » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:07 am

ezzy333 wrote:You are making way too broad of a statement to be backed up by a single video with way too many variable to begin with. I have found that size of the dog compared to height of the cover makes a huge difference as does the type of bird and the individual dog. I do know my experience with pheasants is just the opposite of what you are stating and the dogs that break and get the head start find more birds a lot quicker than the steady dogs. But even then there is a total difference in dogs which is the biggest factor.

Ezzy
Thank you . I thought I was all alone in posting that idea earlier. :)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
Brazosvalleyvizslas
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
Location: Soon2be, Texas

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:35 pm

Sharon wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:You are making way too broad of a statement to be backed up by a single video with way too many variable to begin with. I have found that size of the dog compared to height of the cover makes a huge difference as does the type of bird and the individual dog. I do know my experience with pheasants is just the opposite of what you are stating and the dogs that break and get the head start find more birds a lot quicker than the steady dogs. But even then there is a total difference in dogs which is the biggest factor.

Ezzy
Thank you . I thought I was all alone in posting that idea earlier. :)
You aren't alone. The key for me in this statement is that the dogs are the biggest factor.

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by gundogguy » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:55 pm

ezzy333 wrote:You are making way too broad of a statement to be backed up by a single video with way too many variable to begin with. I have found that size of the dog compared to height of the cover makes a huge difference as does the type of bird and the individual dog. I do know my experience with pheasants is just the opposite of what you are stating and the dogs that break and get the head start find more birds a lot quicker than the steady dogs. But even then there is a total difference in dogs which is the biggest factor.

Ezzy
Ezzy, you got me there. One video is not enough evidence. So, please post your video's that are contrary to the fact that steady dogs have a better chance of learning how to mark than dogs that simple chase and run in.
How does the chasing and running in dog, mark doubles?
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by Sharon » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:48 pm

I don't think we're talking about "running in". I'm talking about going on the shot . (Some may be talking about going on the flush.) Still demanding a staunch point until the hunter gets there.

( I've posted too much on this topic - I'm done. :) )
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by gundogguy » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:34 pm

Sharon wrote:I don't think we're talking about "running in". I'm talking about going on the shot . (Some may be talking about going on the flush.) Still demanding a staunch point until the hunter gets there.

( I've posted too much on this topic - I'm done. :) )
Chasing or running in is after the bird is in the air. This has nothing to do holding point prior to the flush, or staunchness as it called.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: From Training to Actual Hunting

Post by oldbeek » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:48 pm

Many years ago I had a dog get shot by busting at flush. It did survive but was out for the season. On check cords: Make one out of a cheat Harbor Freight 1/4 inch air line, snap and hose clamp. Works great.

Post Reply