Grouse and Running Pheasants

[brianb]

My two year old setter does well holding point for as long as I need with pigeon launchers and non running pen raised birds that are hidden. Now that we've been out hunting together, he turns into a flusher when he sees running pheasants and moving grouse. I'm looking for some advice to get him to relocate on and pin moving birds and not chase? It seems that some dogs are just naturally better at this. Does this take a long time for some dogs to figure out on their own? Do some dogs never figure this out?

[Superhawk]

If he is collar conditioned I would stay on top of him during his hunt and when he goes on point I would reinforce the whoa command...if he creeps nick him lightly and tell him Whoa. I have been guiding many years on preserves,state game lands, and state parks; sometimes sensory overload, whether it is wild birds or not, causes a dog to lose his composure. Praise him for an intense point...nick him for the creep...if you kick brush and find nothing...tell him OK to let him relocate and he should move if you have trained him to relocate. Most dogs in my experience relocate on OK (necessary for hen Pheasants or any bird for that matter) and track the moving scent...if your lucky it will be a bird and not a rabbit!! Have fun and hunt often...any day above the dirt is a good day so I am told!

[Sharon]

Is your dog conditioned to the e collar?

I think you are talking about transitioning from the launcher to wild birds.

I think an intermediary step would help- planting quail( no launcher now) , in your training field where you have good control using the CC or e collar,
then maintaining that control in the wild bird field/woods. Don't shoot what the dog doesn't hold for.

A bird is not a bird to a dog - different birds rev up more passion , and sometimes require renewed training.

Many folk never use a launcher ; they are lucky enough to fully train their dog on wild birds. They say the dog eventually learns from that bird experience to hold his point.

I'm sure you'll get better advice from the more experienced.

[DonF]

Never having trained on wild bird's, I suspect that would be a long row to hoe. Problem being you can't set up situation's to teach the dog what you want. Get your pigeon's back out. You need a dead one and a live one. You work on whoa in the yard with them, I assume you have done whoa work. Start out with the dead bird. Dead first to keep the temptation down. work your dog around a bit then whoa it. Once it's stopped, drop the dead bird on the ground near you. You need to be in position to stop your dog if/when it breaks. As your dog stands better for this, shouldn't take to long, move the command and the drop of the bird closer together. What you want to end up at is removing the voice command and dropping the bird and the drop stop's the dog. Once you have that, go to a flight bird. Start over from the beginning and progress the same way. You'll get your dog to where simply releasing the bird will stop the dog, the bird flying and whoa mean the same thing. Next step will be the hardest and saved for last because of that. Another live pigeon but pull the flight feather's and hobble the legs with a pipe cleaner. You don't want the bird to run off on you and if you don't hobble it your gonna create a situation where you lose your attention of the dog and it will probably jump in to help you. next tie a string in the middle of the hobble, about a 10' will be enough to start. This part start's out the same but this time when you drop the bird, drop it behind you, don't watch the bird, watch the dog. You have the bird hobbled and the string attached, you control the bird. But when that bird hit's the ground and start's jumping around and trying to walk, you will get your dog's attention, big time. This step is saved for last just because of that. Until your at a point that the bird moving on the ground behind you doesn't move the dog, you need to be between the bird and the dog to get the dog stopped. This goes the same way as the other's but once the dog is standing the bird flopping around on the ground, start tossing it off to your side, nothing between the bird and the dog. Then as you get it there, start herding the bird around a bit for the dog, it must stand. The idea here is a falling bird means whoa, a flying bird mean's whoa and a bird walking around means whoa. The string is to to be sure you control the bird and don't have to chase a bird walking off. It also give's you a hand if the dog does break in that you pull the bird right back to yourself. Be sure that when you stop the dog each time it's 20-30 ft in front of you. The temptation to break will be great in the dog and you need room for yourself to intercept your dog and put it back where it belongs, help the dog out. Don't get upset with the dog if it goes bad, just get it stopped and put it back where you stopped it. This is the only time I ever move a dog back to where it moved from. Other time's once I have the dog doing what I want, the excersize ends right there and I go on. I originally did this only with the fly away bird to teach stop to flush. Added the other two parts later to get the dog to stop to fall and to not go in on a bird walking around on the ground.

When I started, I simply put the dog back on a 20" check cord and used the knot holding the snap on to bump the dog under the chin to stop it. Came from the original Delmar Smith whoa post, which I still use. I have since done it with the e-collar but pay attention to your timing. Be sure you have the dog stopped and under control before you drop a bird. You don't want to toss the bird and at the same time hit the dog with the collar. You are not teaching the dog to avoid the bird so be aware of when you hit the dog and use just enough to stop the dog. Lot easier to do than to read about. Take one step at a time and move on only wwhen you get compliance from the dog to the bird being tossed.

[brianb]

Thanks for the input. I'll be trying some of these tips. He's collar conditioned. He knows whoa. I think the problem is two fold. He wants to chase birds he sees but he also doesn't know how to relocate smartly and carefully on a moving bird. Not only do I get unintended flushing I also get false points where I know a grouse was and has moved.

I read about some of these dogs that "get it". They know that birds will run and they'll outsmart them by carefully creeping, outflanking them from a different direction or pinning them . I'd be interested to know if folks were able to teach this, it came with lots of exposure to wild birds and "experience" or some dogs are just naturals at this.

[brianb]

The problems is actually three fold right now because the woods are so full of leaves I can't really see exactly what he's doing when he contacts a bird. I just hear the "whir" of the grouse flying away. So it's hard for me to whoa or nick him when I can't see him. The leaves will be down soon so it will be much easier to train and hopefully bag some birds.

[DonF]

Thanks for the input. I'll be trying some of these tips. He's collar conditioned. He knows whoa. I think the problem is two fold. He wants to chase birds he sees but he also doesn't know how to relocate smartly and carefully on a moving bird. Not only do I get unintended flushing I also get false points where I know a grouse was and has moved.

I read about some of these dogs that "get it". They know that birds will run and they'll outsmart them by carefully creeping, outflanking them from a different direction or pinning them . I'd be interested to know if folks were able to teach this, it came with lots of exposure to wild birds and "experience" or some dogs are just naturals at this.

Given time he should get through unintended flushing. You can help him out some there too though. Get him back on the launcher's. Bring him in cross wind the the bird and as soon as he give's an indication he smell's it, pop the bird. Don't let him establish point.by use of popping the bird soon as he smells it. Once he's stopping well, shouldn't take long at all, if he's back of the bird a ways, relocate him right into the bird. Choose yourself a point he cannot encroach on but be sure he can move well intp the bird. Once he hit's that point, I use 10'-15', get the bird out right away. Keep your mouth shut. Let him figure it out. And he will too. you'll find that you'll have him on a bird and if he's close enough without flushing, he won't relocate again. Then once he's doing well with that, put him back on the wild birds. Wild birds will teach him just how close he can get without flushing them. He'll also be learning that different cover will hold birds longer and/or shorter times. These are things you can't do with a wild bird that will give him a bit of understanding on what is happening. Keep in mind, timing is everything so you pay close attention to what is happening.

[Sharon]

I told you you'd get good advice Brian.

[Fran Seagren]

Yes, very good training advice. Who says you can't learn anything on these forums! Thanks, Don.

[gundogguy]

Never having trained on wild bird's, I suspect that would be a long row to hoe. Problem being you can't set up situation's to teach the dog what you want. Get your pigeon's back out. You need a dead one and a live one. You work on whoa in the yard with them, I assume you have done whoa work. Start out with the dead bird. Dead first to keep the temptation down. work your dog around a bit then whoa it. Once it's stopped, drop the dead bird on the ground near you. You need to be in position to stop your dog if/when it breaks. As your dog stands better for this, shouldn't take to long, move the command and the drop of the bird closer together. What you want to end up at is removing the voice command and dropping the bird and the drop stop's the dog. Once you have that, go to a flight bird. Start over from the beginning and progress the same way. You'll get your dog to where simply releasing the bird will stop the dog, the bird flying and whoa mean the same thing. Next step will be the hardest and saved for last because of that. Another live pigeon but pull the flight feather's and hobble the legs with a pipe cleaner. You don't want the bird to run off on you and if you don't hobble it your gonna create a situation where you lose your attention of the dog and it will probably jump in to help you. next tie a string in the middle of the hobble, about a 10' will be enough to start. This part start's out the same but this time when you drop the bird, drop it behind you, don't watch the bird, watch the dog. You have the bird hobbled and the string attached, you control the bird. But when that bird hit's the ground and start's jumping around and trying to walk, you will get your dog's attention, big time. This step is saved for last just because of that. Until your at a point that the bird moving on the ground behind you doesn't move the dog, you need to be between the bird and the dog to get the dog stopped. This goes the same way as the other's but once the dog is standing the bird flopping around on the ground, start tossing it off to your side, nothing between the bird and the dog. Then as you get it there, start herding the bird around a bit for the dog, it must stand. The idea here is a falling bird means whoa, a flying bird mean's whoa and a bird walking around means whoa. The string is to to be sure you control the bird and don't have to chase a bird walking off. It also give's you a hand if the dog does break in that you pull the bird right back to yourself. Be sure that when you stop the dog each time it's 20-30 ft in front of you. The temptation to break will be great in the dog and you need room for yourself to intercept your dog and put it back where it belongs, help the dog out. Don't get upset with the dog if it goes bad, just get it stopped and put it back where you stopped it. This is the only time I ever move a dog back to where it moved from. Other time's once I have the dog doing what I want, the excersize ends right there and I go on. I originally did this only with the fly away bird to teach stop to flush. Added the other two parts later to get the dog to stop to fall and to not go in on a bird walking around on the ground.

When I started, I simply put the dog back on a 20" check cord and used the knot holding the snap on to bump the dog under the chin to stop it. Came from the original Delmar Smith whoa post, which I still use. I have since done it with the e-collar but pay attention to your timing. Be sure you have the dog stopped and under control before you drop a bird. You don't want to toss the bird and at the same time hit the dog with the collar. You are not teaching the dog to avoid the bird so be aware of when you hit the dog and use just enough to stop the dog. Lot easier to do than to read about. Take one step at a time and move on only wwhen you get compliance from the dog to the bird being tossed.

Have used many facets of DonF post to help a dog over this transition of training birds to wild birds. Also during that time I steady the dog to wing and shot.
If the dog understands the rules of steadiness flushing and chasing are not an option!

[gonehuntin']

So, seems like you actually have two problems here: Steady to wing or incidental flush and relocation without flush.

For the first one, follow Don's advice, it is basically how I do it as well.The second one is the tough one and you don't want to try teaching it UNTIL the dog is steady to wing and incidental flush. As Don said, a flighted bird should mean WHOA. That is best done with launchers.

Anytime a dog sees a walking bird it should whoa; there is no difference between a walking bird and a flighted bird, they both mean whoa. NEVER IN TRAINING WORK A DOG DOWN WIND OF A WALKING BIRD.We first helped the dog understand that scent stopped the dog, then we taught it that a flighted bird stopped the dog, now we teach it that a SIGHTED bird stops the dog and has nothing to do with scent.

You start this with hobbled birds in the training yard. Ideally if you can find a bunch of builings like a storage park, it works great. Keeping the pooch locked in the truck, plant about 3-4 pigeons, one on the blind side of each different building. They should be clip winged and slightly hobbled or not hobbled, just walking. Get the dog and put in on a 20' cc. Give him a release command and let him quarter in front of you as you walk toward the blind side of the first building. When he comes around the corner and sees the walking bird, he should lock up. If he doesn't, give him a jerk on the cc, whoa him, let him watch the bird, then heel him away toward the next buildings blind side. You accomplish three things here: Teach him to stop on sight of a walking bird, teach him to heel off a sighted bird, teach him to hunt in a totally different direction from a visual bird. Do this for each blind bird. He will catch on very quickly, though it may take several sessions. When he's 100%, remove the cc and do it with collar over lay.

The relocation is almost impossible to teach and different dogs relocate in different ways. Some relocate head high by scent, cutting a large down wind crescent and locking up on scent. I value and love that type of dog. Type two follows the foot scent of the bird and stops when the scent gets stronger. This type of dog, which is the most common, will flush many more birds on relocation that the circler, but it's not the dog's fault and there is nothing you can do about it. I also don't think you can train a dog to circle. To train a foot scent re-locator, try walking a pigeon down the long wall of a storage building and around the blind side. Get the dog on the cc and have him track the bird down the building. When he rounds the corner, he should point the sighted bird. That's about all you can do.

Ultimately all you can do is to teach the dog the basics and let the wild birds finish him. Some dogs will never learn to relocate, some will be great, most will be average. You take what you get. Hope this helps, Sharon requested I post this.

[Sharon]

LOl Is that a disclaimer?( Sometimes folks PM me for help , and I know there are others on here who could help much more than me.)

[setterpoint]

make sure the dog knows whoa then clip the wing of a pigeon where it cant fly hide the bird in grass dissie the bird if you have t o let the dog point the bird then simply make the bird walk out around in front of the dog make sure the dog stays put with whoa he will catch on fast