Pinch (prong) collar, choke chain, or....??

jegan · Post by **jegan** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:54 am

Hi everyone,

I have a 5 month old small munsterlander. Since I have had him (from 8 weeks), we have walked consistently. He has learned to walk quite well. In the past 2 weeks or so, it seems like he has become a different dog. His strength has multiplied so fast, he now pulls quite a bit, he is full of boundless energy, and he just goes crazy in at the sight or in the presence of somebody else or another dog that we come across. By crazy, I mean he just starts pulling and jumping and trying to get to them/greet them as if his life depends on it. I can definitely tell that his prey drive/scenting abilities have increased quite a bit as well. I am happy about this. However, he just seems to be quite hard to control right now compared to how he has been since 8 weeks of age. I do not know if these changes are normal. Anyway, my question is if I should implement a choke chain or a pinch (prong) collar when walking. I have not started collar conditioning him to the ecollar yet. I feel as though he does not know his basic commands 100% yet so introducing the ecollar now is probably not the right time. However, perhaps now is a good time to introduce a choke chain or pinch collar? I would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance!

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:31 am

Hello Jegan,

Here is a video I did a while ago using what I call my "Packleader" leash. It works great for young dogs in getting them to understand my claiming of space. I don't use it as obedience or a "heel" command. Dogs don't understand that. What they do understand, is a dog (or human) that simply claims space or things. With this method, I can usually get a dog understanding walking with me with no pulling, and steadiness (I can stop him, drop the leash and walk away) in a session or two. The dog in this video had had no obedience training and this was his first time with the "Packleader" leash.

Hope it helps.

http://youtu.be/I3FEQcCY1E0

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:20 pm

jegan wrote:Hi everyone,

I have a 5 month old small munsterlander. Since I have had him (from 8 weeks), we have walked consistently. He has learned to walk quite well. In the past 2 weeks or so, it seems like he has become a different dog. His strength has multiplied so fast, he now pulls quite a bit, he is full of boundless energy, and he just goes crazy in at the sight or in the presence of somebody else or another dog that we come across. By crazy, I mean he just starts pulling and jumping and trying to get to them/greet them as if his life depends on it. I can definitely tell that his prey drive/scenting abilities have increased quite a bit as well. I am happy about this. However, he just seems to be quite hard to control right now compared to how he has been since 8 weeks of age. I do not know if these changes are normal. Anyway, my question is if I should implement a choke chain or a pinch (prong) collar when walking. I have not started collar conditioning him to the ecollar yet. I feel as though he does not know his basic commands 100% yet so introducing the ecollar now is probably not the right time. However, perhaps now is a good time to introduce a choke chain or pinch collar? I would appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance!

Perfectly normal and the time to get it under control. PM sent with a product suggestion.

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:09 pm

You've got a couple issues at least here. I are they're normal. One is what's acceptable for walking on a leash. The other is how to react to seeing other dogs.

I'm not a fan of "choke chains" because they can more easily cause injury. Prongs are good management tools, but don't teach how to walk on a leash as a skill, just help you manage the dog til it gets it.

As far as not going crazy when meeting other dogs, one approach is to wait for a calming of behavior before your dog gets to approach the other. Easier said than done in some circumstances. Just be careful imo NOT to give a sharp prong correction in response to your dog getting excited when it sees other dogs, because your dog can potentially associate the other dogs as causing the correction.

I think Brad's type of leash is essentially an 8. That makes it tougher for your dog to act up to begin with, so while it may not be used to train a heel command, produces behavior closer to true heeling. In some situations that's what you want. For me, there are times where I need my dog on a leash but am happy to have him focused on dogs and other distractions, and not on me, but still want him not to be a jerk about it. I don't know how Brad handles those situations; it may be his dogs mind well enough that they already are under good verbal control in those cases.

I'd definitely wait on the e-collar.

Cobbhunts · Post by **Cobbhunts** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:57 pm

I'm going through the exact same thing. My Pudelpointer will choke himself out pulling to get to other people or dogs. The pinch collar helps, but he still does it every single time. All the pinch collar does is keep him from jerking our arms out of socket. He's nearly 7 months old. I am tagging this thread because we are about at our wits end on this pulling issue. I want to do it right and not mess with any of his natural instincts, abilities ect...

Sharron, could you copy/paste the PM you sent the OP and send to me please? Thanks!

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:14 pm

I've got a 5 month old GSP. I tried to attach a video of my dog walking with my 2 year old daughter. It was only about a week ago. It isn't as pretty as Brads at the end but he is totally listening to what my daughter is doing and telling him. I have done my work with a pinch collar and have with all my dogs. It is a similar concept to Brads, but I prefer ONE correction and DONE, no nagging which was said in the video a few times. It's good that you are looking to correct this problem now as it will be way more work when he's doubled in size at a year old!!

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Check the Higgins video. Gentle but effective. No clue why it gets their attention when a choke chain doesn't but it works for me. Mine would pull and gag all at the same time. Tried the Higgins method. In 30 seconds we had a loose lead and looking at me to see where I was going.

Vikingoo168 · Post by **Vikingoo168** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:22 am

greg jacobs wrote:Check the Higgins video. Gentle but effective. No clue why it gets their attention when a choke chain doesn't but it works for me. Mine would pull and gag all at the same time. Tried the Higgins method. In 30 seconds we had a loose lead and looking at me to see where I was going.

I use this lead as well and it worked in about 30 seconds for me tol. It touches two pressure points at the same time that cause discomfort for the dog when they pull.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:22 am

Prong collar, hands down, is what I would use. There is a difference in a prong collar and a pinch collar, though. I've not worked a ton with a pinch collar, but my prong collar is my favorite training tool. It cuts a dog's weight to one-third of what it is. Put a prong collar on a sixty-pound dog and it's like handling a twenty-pound dog. The main thing to remember is to not keep tension in it. Jerks or pops on the lead to make the collar tighten and loosen around his neck real fast. Start light and gradually make the jerks a little harder until he listens. You won't be sorry for the investment.

This is a prong collar.

This is a pinch collar.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:21 am

The dog pull's and lunges because the dog is not focused on the handler and hasn't a clue the rule's. I prefer a choke collar, It's what I learned obedience with. The Higgins collar, the Smith Woinder lead, the prong collar and the pinch collar will all produce the same end DEPENDING ON HOW THEY'RE USED. if the dog is lunging it's dragging you along with it and isn't focused on you at all. The Smith lead, Higgins lead and pinch collar all make that little miss direction more uncomfortable and give's a more,,,,uncomfortable correction. Notice with each style, the dog learns to overcome the correction rather than fight it. If you were to miss use one of those tools as so many miss use the choke collar, the out come would be about the same. Without the, ok, pain, those other type collars and leads provide, you need to find a different way of doing things's. If the dog is lunging at another dog or person, the problem started before you got there, the dog was not paying attention to you. Early on in obedience you have to pay attention to your dog. If it's not paying attention, you have to get it's attention. Best may is change direction. Make a hard turn away from your dog and give it jerks till it's going with you. Turn into your dog and bend slightly bumping it in the side with a knee or do a 180* turn and jerk until the dog is back where it's supposed to be. This is all best done without distraction in the beginning. Sort of like using the e-collar, it has to learn the commands first. As the dog get's better without distractions, start adding distractions, little ones at first. Don't always walk in a straight line. As you saw in Higgins video he did walk in straight lines but, he made 180* turns that got the dog's attention. The dog not paying enough attention caused the dog discomfort so what the dog is learning is to pay attention to what the handler is doing. It's no different than a choke collar, a pinch collar or the Smith wonder lead. The only thing different is the way and the force the correction is given. With the choke, the handler administer's the correction. With the others the dog does it itself. If your using a choke, learn to use it, don't give it up just because you don;t know how to use it. Higgins mentioned how to put on his lead right in the beginning, it's done the same way with the choke collar and there is a reason for it. The loop the the lead goes through, when pressure is lessened, must release the pressure on the dog's neck. It's the same with every program. With the Smith wonder lead, the lead is stiff and pops itself open. what keep's it and the Higgins lead from just opening up? The stopper. With the Smith lead without it the lead opens to far and the lead falls down from the dog's head, back of the head pressure point. With the Higgins the same thing happens plus the lead let's loose and you end up losing both pressure points, back of the hear and on the nose. With a pinch collar, if the collar is on wrong, the lead end of the collar falls down over the ring it goes through and doesn't completely release the correction. Exactly the same thing happens with the choke but the correction is not so severe as the other types, the dog won't correct itself because the dog never get's the associated pain of the correction, no matter who gives it, the dog or the handler. With the claw, it doesn't matter, the way the thing is made, loosing the lead relieves all the pressure of the collar.

Don't pull aeay from any one system, just learn how to use the system to get the desired outcome. I'll stay with the choke collar, I know how to use it.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:21 am

DonF wrote:The dog pull's and lunges because the dog is not focused on the handler and hasn't a clue the rule's. I prefer a choke collar, It's what I learned obedience with. The Higgins collar, the Smith Wonder lead, the prong collar and the pinch collar will all produce the same end DEPENDING ON HOW THEY'RE USED. if the dog is lunging it's dragging you along with it and isn't focused on you at all. The Smith lead, Higgins lead and pinch collar all make that little miss direction more uncomfortable and give's a more,,,,uncomfortable correction. Notice with each style, the dog learns to overcome the correction rather than fight it. If you were to miss use one of those tools as so many miss use the choke collar, the out come would be about the same. Without the, ok, pain, those other type collars and leads provide, you need to find a different way of doing things's. If the dog is lunging at another dog or person, the problem started before you got there, the dog was not paying attention to you. Early on in obedience you have to pay attention to your dog. If it's not paying attention, you have to get it's attention. Best may is change direction. Make a hard turn away from your dog and give it jerks till it's going with you. Turn into your dog and bend slightly bumping it in the side with a knee or do a 180* turn and jerk until the dog is back where it's supposed to be. This is all best done without distraction in the beginning. Sort of like using the e-collar, it has to learn the commands first. As the dog get's better without distractions, start adding distractions, little ones at first. Don't always walk in a straight line. As you saw in Higgins video he did walk in straight lines but, he made 180* turns that got the dog's attention. The dog not paying enough attention caused the dog discomfort so what the dog is learning is to pay attention to what the handler is doing. It's no different than a choke collar, a pinch collar or the Smith wonder lead. The only thing different is the way and the force the correction is given. With the choke, the handler administer's the correction. With the others the dog does it itself. If your using a choke, learn to use it, don't give it up just because you don;t know how to use it. Higgins mentioned how to put on his lead right in the beginning, it's done the same way with the choke collar and there is a reason for it. The loop the the lead goes through, when pressure is lessened, must release the pressure on the dog's neck. It's the same with every program. With the Smith wonder lead, the lead is stiff and pops itself open. what keep's it and the Higgins lead from just opening up? The stopper. With the Smith lead without it the lead opens to far and the lead falls down from the dog's head, back of the head pressure point. With the Higgins the same thing happens plus the lead let's loose and you end up losing both pressure points, back of the hear and on the nose. With a pinch collar, if the collar is on wrong, the lead end of the collar falls down over the ring it goes through and doesn't completely release the correction. Exactly the same thing happens with the choke but the correction is not so severe as the other types, the dog won't correct itself because the dog never get's the associated pain of the correction, no matter who gives it, the dog or the handler. With the claw, it doesn't matter, the way the thing is made, loosing the lead relieves all the pressure of the collar.

Don't pull aeay from any one system, just learn how to use the system to get the desired outcome. I'll stay with the choke collar, I know how to use it.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:22 am

DonF wrote:
DonF wrote:The dog pull's and lunges because the dog is not focused on the handler and hasn't a clue the rule's. I prefer a choke collar, It's what I learned obedience with. The Higgins collar, the Smith Wonder lead, the prong (claw) collar and the pinch collar will all produce the same end DEPENDING ON HOW THEY'RE USED. if the dog is lunging it's dragging you along with it and isn't focused on you at all. The Smith lead, Higgins lead and pinch collar all make that little miss direction more uncomfortable and give's a more,,,,uncomfortable correction. Notice with each style, the dog learns to overcome the correction rather than fight it. If you were to miss use one of those tools as so many miss use the choke collar, the out come would be about the same. Without the, ok, pain, those other type collars and leads provide, you need to find a different way of doing things's. If the dog is lunging at another dog or person, the problem started before you got there, the dog was not paying attention to you. Early on in obedience you have to pay attention to your dog. If it's not paying attention, you have to get it's attention. Best may is change direction. Make a hard turn away from your dog and give it jerks till it's going with you. Turn into your dog and bend slightly bumping it in the side with a knee or do a 180* turn and jerk until the dog is back where it's supposed to be. This is all best done without distraction in the beginning. Sort of like using the e-collar, it has to learn the commands first. As the dog get's better without distractions, start adding distractions, little ones at first. Don't always walk in a straight line. As you saw in Higgins video he did walk in straight lines but, he made 180* turns that got the dog's attention. The dog not paying enough attention caused the dog discomfort so what the dog is learning is to pay attention to what the handler is doing. It's no different than a choke collar, a pinch collar or the Smith wonder lead. The only thing different is the way and the force the correction is given. With the choke, the handler administer's the correction. With the others the dog does it itself. If your using a choke, learn to use it, don't give it up just because you don;t know how to use it. Higgins mentioned how to put on his lead right in the beginning, it's done the same way with the choke collar and there is a reason for it. The loop the the lead goes through, when pressure is lessened, must release the pressure on the dog's neck. It's the same with every program. With the Smith wonder lead, the lead is stiff and pops itself open. what keep's it and the Higgins lead from just opening up? The stopper. With the Smith lead without it the lead opens to far and the lead falls down from the dog's head, back of the head pressure point. With the Higgins the same thing happens plus the lead let's loose and you end up losing both pressure points, back of the hear and on the nose. With a pinch collar, if the collar is on wrong, the lead end of the collar falls down over the ring it goes through and doesn't completely release the correction. Exactly the same thing happens with the choke but the correction is not so severe as the other types, the dog won't correct itself because the dog never get's the associated pain of the correction, no matter who gives it, the dog or the handler. With the claw, it doesn't matter, the way the thing is made, loosing the lead relieves all the pressure of the collar.

Don't pull aeay from any one system, just learn how to use the system to get the desired outcome. I'll stay with the choke collar, I know how to use it.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:00 am

Hello DonF,

Your description of what I do is incorrect. Unlike all the other methods you described, I'm not teaching the dog to heel. My method is completely different. Heeling is simply a byproduct of what I'm teaching. It is proven in the video. What I did in the video, was much more than a typical heeling drill. Watch again. Once the dog is stopped, I say nothing and walk out front. The dog remains still and steady. You won't see that in any other method. In the human mind it looks like a command but in my method, the dogs see it differently. Dogs have a natural ability and understanding of the claiming of space and things. This is dog psychology. It's how they relate and communicate with each other. I don't command heel, I simply show them that when I ask, the space out front belongs to me. They choose to stop and stand because they have no other options. This is the beginning of teaching steadiness in my method. It all boils down not to obedience training, but the building of trust.

In the same way, I don't need a command to tell a dog to be still (whoa, stand command, etc). It again is simply a byproduct of the bigger picture.

Let the attacks begin.

Brad Higgins (Dalai Lama )

http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:45 pm

No reason for any attack. There is simply a difference of opinion here. I watch the video and there is no hocus pocus, pretty straight forward, not all that different than how I saw the Smith Wonder Lead used. Both attain the same end using an awful similar method, the dog learns how to turn off the discomfort it's getting at pressure point's. Then original question was Pinch, choke or ?? The answer is simple, all work but none will work if not used properly. I do enjoy your video's. Sorry if I made you feel attacked, definitely not my intention. BTW, I like you mentioned the proper way to put on the lead regarding how the ring is placed. Lot of people never mention the proper way to put on a choke collar and you did it. Attention to small details can be a real problem. To the OP, the choke is actually the gentlest collar when used properly. It will also give results a bit slower. It also require's timing, I don't believe the Higgin's or Smith method do as the dog applies the pressure, not the handler. But both those methods will require being done properly, all methods of anything require that.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:26 am

Nothing personal here DonF. I didn't mean an attack by you. Usually when I post here I have to be ready to defend myself with those that believe differently. It's all good though. I thank them for the emotion they invest.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:44 pm

I didn't think you did. No sweat!

jegan · Post by **jegan** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:37 am

Hi everyone, I want to thank you all for your advice and input. I went to the pet store this weekend and first tried on a collar which slipped over the muzzle and around the neck. You attached your lead at the muzzle. I tried walking around the pet store and Finn (my munster) would just stand still. I expected some resistance. However, he would barely move after putting it on. Next, I tried the prong collar. As soon as I put it on, he gave a few tugs and figured it out very quickly. He is like a completely different dog. He walks perfectly at my side and listens immediately to commands. It has only been a short period of time hours and it is a complete and drastic change. As I have been using it, the thought crossed my mind if it is possible for him to become collar-wise similar to that of wrongly implementing an ecollar. Is this a legitimate concern? Again, thank you all for your help. I have a dramatically different dog now. I appreciate it!

NLsetter · Post by **NLsetter** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:33 am

I have used Brads method on my young Irish and it was like someone turned a switch on. By far the easiest method I have used and its also improved steadiness very quickly.

chrokeva · Post by **chrokeva** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:25 am

I can relate with what the OP is going through with this pup. I also went through various methods (buckle, prong, choke, heeling stick) to get my now 8 month old walking on a loose leash. Although I did purchase the prong and there is no doubt my dog was a different dog when she wore it I personally felt that the dog was only trying to avoid the prong and not really learning to pay attention to me so I quickly stopped using it. Perhaps the prong would have eventually worked if I would have given it more time but I just could not get past the fact that she still pulled as soon as it was taken off her and I did not want to be forced to use a prong collar on her for the rest of her life.
I am now using a plan old english style slip lead and just spending a lot more time getting the dog paying attention to me. I agree with DonF that any of the tools listed can and will work but it really is about the dog paying attention to the handler. I believe one of my biggest mistakes has been that I just was trying to move too fast and it was getting her more excited. Slowing things down and taking time to make sure the dog was paying attention to me has really helped me and my pup more than any off the above mentioned tools.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:50 am

Although was that the dog might become collar wise like when an e-collar is improperly used. Well, so what? Had a discussion some time back on another site about who has their dog wear the e-collar when they go out. Vast majority of people claimed to never turn the dog loose without it. So what's to get collar wise to? Same thing would work with your prong collar or choke or what ever. You put on a leash, make the collar a part of the leash. Then there's nothing to get wise to. Years ago I did a little AKC obedience, not a lot but some. I always used the choke collar for training and in the ring, everyone did. On lead or off lead the choke collar was there while doing obedience. For field work it was always removed, didn't want it getting hung on something and hurting the dog. If the collar you use is always there when your using a lead, there is nothing to get wise to. the dog does not feel the leash unless it pulls on the collar and then all it really feels in the collar which it feels all the time it's on anyway.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:47 pm

My thoughts too. Once I'm sure the pup knows what heel means , I use a nick on the e collar when he passes my knee. Problem solved.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:36 pm

Agreed. If a choke collar doesn't work, then I'd wager your doing it wrong. If guys can fix a 110lb chess is pulling on a leash, then a softer versatile dog can be fixed with it. You need to lean to use a choke collar properly if it isn't working. A choke collar will train, a prong collar just teaches the dog to walk on a leash. Learn to use a choke chain for obedience work.

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:59 pm

As the saying goes;

A bad tradesman always blames his tools

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:29 pm

Understand that f the prong collar is use right....it is like having power steering. The dog corrects with no intervention from you. The key is having the right fit...so important.

You can also have a thick lead that is wrap around the dog's in a cinch so that when dog pulls...it will pull on their stomach.

bgcole · Post by **bgcole** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:40 am

Came here to search for some advice on teaching heel to an older pup... so I'm going to jump in rather than start a new thread

I adopted my GSP as around an 18 month old, 62 pound muscle who had zero training to speak of. That said he's a very fast learner, Come and sit are both 90%+ and still improving... He is successfully on an e-collar for off leash running but the collar is only used for come at this point, and not very often.

His leash manners are down right terrible. always nose to the ground chasing a scent, like Brad's video, he knows I'm there on the other end of the leash but he's not really concerned with it. I am the only one who can "walk him" because I'm strong enough, but he pulls and leads very hard, even with a choke chain, even if i "dump him" by turning around quickly. The perfect Start perfect finish approach hasn't been working for me ....yet.

So Im going to try the higgins lead tonight, looks like i can make one relatively easy....

But any other tips for an older very strong guy who didn't have the benefit of starting young?

Also, saw someone say the fit of a prong collar is very important for it to work.... fitment tips in case i try that method?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:56 am

This is my 'pack leader' leash

It's available in all sizes for all breeds and all colours . Free delivery anywhere in the world.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:04 pm

bgcole wrote:Came here to search for some advice on teaching heel to an older pup... so I'm going to jump in rather than start a new thread

I adopted my GSP as around an 18 month old, 62 pound muscle who had zero training to speak of. That said he's a very fast learner, Come and sit are both 90%+ and still improving... He is successfully on an e-collar for off leash running but the collar is only used for come at this point, and not very often.

His leash manners are down right terrible. always nose to the ground chasing a scent, like Brad's video, he knows I'm there on the other end of the leash but he's not really concerned with it. I am the only one who can "walk him" because I'm strong enough, but he pulls and leads very hard, even with a choke chain, even if i "dump him" by turning around quickly. The perfect Start perfect finish approach hasn't been working for me ....yet.

So Im going to try the higgins lead tonight, looks like i can make one relatively easy....

But any other tips for an older very strong guy who didn't have the benefit of starting young?

Also, saw someone say the fit of a prong collar is very important for it to work.... fitment tips in case i try that method?

Again, a choke chain is used for hard "snaps", not choking. If you let your dog get ahead enough to pull, then your way too late on your correction. Walk in circles and weaving motions, pop the leash/choke chain relatively hard. I'd bet your too gentle and not changing direction enough. It's not a tool issue, it's that you aren't using it right. I would guarantee that. Watch Evan graham, Danny farmer, Chris Aiken, etc for obedience work.

bgcole · Post by **bgcole** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:53 am

I don't see anywhere that I said I was "choking", in fact I am doing quick snaps, although I can try it harder. I've watched videos on 2 out of those three trainers you mentioned multiple times. I am also weaving and circling. The dog is pulling ahead regardless of when I snap the lead or turn and will continue to pull choking himself which leads to an injury concern. This dog was never walked on a leash except for when he had a full behind the shoulder harness on.

I did try brads method last night based on the video and got immediate results. So I'm going to give that a few weeks.

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:09 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:
bgcole wrote:Came here to search for some advice on teaching heel to an older pup... so I'm going to jump in rather than start a new thread

I adopted my GSP as around an 18 month old, 62 pound muscle who had zero training to speak of. That said he's a very fast learner, Come and sit are both 90%+ and still improving... He is successfully on an e-collar for off leash running but the collar is only used for come at this point, and not very often.

His leash manners are down right terrible. always nose to the ground chasing a scent, like Brad's video, he knows I'm there on the other end of the leash but he's not really concerned with it. I am the only one who can "walk him" because I'm strong enough, but he pulls and leads very hard, even with a choke chain, even if i "dump him" by turning around quickly. The perfect Start perfect finish approach hasn't been working for me ....yet.

So Im going to try the higgins lead tonight, looks like i can make one relatively easy....

But any other tips for an older very strong guy who didn't have the benefit of starting young?

Also, saw someone say the fit of a prong collar is very important for it to work.... fitment tips in case i try that method?

Again, a choke chain is used for hard "snaps", not choking. If you let your dog get ahead enough to pull, then your way too late on your correction. Walk in circles and weaving motions, pop the leash/choke chain relatively hard. I'd bet your too gentle and not changing direction enough. It's not a tool issue, it's that you aren't using it right. I would guarantee that. Watch Evan graham, Danny farmer, Chris Aiken, etc for obedience work.

Right on! When your dog get's ahead, either make a 180 or make a 90 right into him and bump it in the side with your knee.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:49 am

DonF wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:
bgcole wrote:Came here to search for some advice on teaching heel to an older pup... so I'm going to jump in rather than start a new thread

I adopted my GSP as around an 18 month old, 62 pound muscle who had zero training to speak of. That said he's a very fast learner, Come and sit are both 90%+ and still improving... He is successfully on an e-collar for off leash running but the collar is only used for come at this point, and not very often.

His leash manners are down right terrible. always nose to the ground chasing a scent, like Brad's video, he knows I'm there on the other end of the leash but he's not really concerned with it. I am the only one who can "walk him" because I'm strong enough, but he pulls and leads very hard, even with a choke chain, even if i "dump him" by turning around quickly. The perfect Start perfect finish approach hasn't been working for me ....yet.

So Im going to try the higgins lead tonight, looks like i can make one relatively easy....

But any other tips for an older very strong guy who didn't have the benefit of starting young?

Also, saw someone say the fit of a prong collar is very important for it to work.... fitment tips in case i try that method?

Again, a choke chain is used for hard "snaps", not choking. If you let your dog get ahead enough to pull, then your way too late on your correction. Walk in circles and weaving motions, pop the leash/choke chain relatively hard. I'd bet your too gentle and not changing direction enough. It's not a tool issue, it's that you aren't using it right. I would guarantee that. Watch Evan graham, Danny farmer, Chris Aiken, etc for obedience work.
Right on! When your dog get's ahead, either make a 180 or make a 90 right into him and bump it in the side with your knee.

I forgot to add, your dog needs to keep watching you the whole time. This means you change directions a lot, typically requiring a lot of corrections at fist, to keep your dog guessing as to when you'll move next.

bgcole · Post by **bgcole** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:19 am

Thanks- thats the connection I'm struggling to make and trying to achieve. Getting him to pay attention to me instead of whatever else is interesting him at a given moment.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Ok. Jegan (The original Poster) and bgcole.
Let's talk about ''Breaking'' ?...Not Training!
...................................
Brad's video is 'Breaking' a dog ,much like someone would 'break' a horse ? Yea. You don't break a horse every time you take it out. I would suggest that every time the dog (s) by both posters have been conditioned to pull all be it inadvertently as the handlers have not had the required skills to ''break'' the dog.
..................
Tools, The tools required/requested or if used in correctly by someone who does not know how to 'break' the dog through normal walking on a leash can actually cause more concern and frustration for both dog and handler. This would require even further rehabilitation or correction from an experienced 'Breaker' of habits already learned.
...................
It was suggested earlier by someone to watch Farmer/Graham etc (ie named people in the Gundog scene) , but really this is a basic obedience issue and you could learn just as much from the local guy who walks his dog down the park the way you would want. There is no magic leash or collar required.
...................
Attention, Remember that every second you are with your dog you are actually 'training/conditioning' that dog whether you know it or not?..So when you take it to the park or down the street it will act and do what it is conditioned/trained to do in that park or street just the same as it would in the yard or garden or house with you ?..The extra part is the added attractions and distractions ?
....................
Why not try taking one step at a time?...If the dog pulls on the first step ,it sure is gonna pull more on the second

.....
That's why I suggested earlier to go see a trainer.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:17 pm

Hello all,

My video has nothing to do with "breaking" a dog. The end result is not related to obedience. I train the way dogs think. He does not go out front because I claimed that space as another dog would. I didn't tell him what to do (stay, heel, etc.). As long as he stays out of my space, he can choose to do whatever he likes. He can sit, lay down etc. I told him, with my body language, that I didn't want him in my claimed space. He chose not to go there.

This walk gets dogs understanding walking at my side in addition to what conventional trainers call, a "whoa" command. It's not obedience if, during training, the dog is allowed free will and he chooses to do what I ask.

Please watch the video again. There are many subtle thing you might have missed.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Higgins wrote: Please watch the video again. There are many subtle thing you might have missed.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

I'm not questioning the result.!
One of the subtle things I did notice was at the start of the video with standard collar and lead ,there were absolutely NO corrections or directions.
Therefore the dog was allowed to '''''lead'''

I watched it twice .

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:47 pm

That's true. I wanted the audience to understand that this dog in the video had had no training in heeling before that day. He would just go out front and pull. By the end of the 10 minute video, he would not only walk at my side, but he also understood how to be steady while I walked out front (whoa).

When I asked others to view the video again, I didn't mean you specifically. I want others to see how my method is different from typical obedience based training.

Brad Higgins
www.HigginsGundogs.com

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:01 pm

Higgins wrote:That's true.
I want others to see how my method is different from typical obedience based training.
Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

It may or may not surprise some that 'Walking into the space or owning the space'' has and is being practised by many so called typical trainers well before video

and in many more countries before settlers in the USA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYB3LGqQ2HU

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:05 pm

I encourage anyone interested to view both videos. I believe it could start a good discussion on the differences between obedience based training as is shown in your video, and mine. The dogs will tell you which method is more natural and easy for them to understand. Watch where their focus is.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:37 pm

The three important things to me are:

The position of the collar on the neck (don't let it drop to the base of the neck)
The timing of the check and turn, (don't let the dog get in front and dogsled you)
Repetition, (the only way to get a conditioned response)

I haven't used a pinch or wonder lead in several years. I guess all of the recent dogs I have had are pretty soft.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Each and everyone of those collars have been used successfully by thousands of amateur and professional trainers. Many professionals find something they like and start promoting it as the cure all of all that is wrong with dog training and then they offer to sell you their favorite tool for several times what you can make it yourself for. The Buddy Stick, the pigging string, the prong collar, the pinch collar, and many more. The real secret is to be consistent and patience with what ever you decide to use and you will find that the dog learns about as well no matter which you use. I always get real suspicious whenever any one starts telling me they know how a dog thinks. After hundreds of dogs I do know they are much like people or other animals and they all have a mind of their own. Dogs and their owners and I think we can include their trainers all have different opinions of what and how to do anything.

This is what leads most of us to realize that a good trainer has to know the dog because they are all different and need different approaches to learning the same thing. If we could just do it by the numbers or by following a book then we all would be successful and there would be absolutely no need for the professional

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:45 am

ezzy333 wrote:Each and everyone of those collars have been used successfully by thousands of amateur and professional trainers. Many professionals find something they like and start promoting it as the cure all of all that is wrong with dog training and then they offer to sell you their favorite tool for several times what you can make it yourself for. The Buddy Stick, the pigging string, the prong collar, the pinch collar, and many more. The real secret is to be consistent and patent with what ever you decide to use and you will find that the dog learns about as well no matter which you use. I always get real suspicious whenever any one starts telling me they know how a dog thinks. After hundreds of dogs I do know they are much like people or other animals and they all have a mind of their own. Dogs and their owners and I think we can include their trainers all have different opinions of what and how to do anything.

This is what leads most of us to realize that a good trainer has to know the dog because they are all different and need different approaches to learning the same thing. If we could just do it by the numbers or by following a book then we all would be successful and there would be absolutely no need for the professional

Ezzy

+1
"I encourage anyone interested to view both videos"
One is selling a product and the other is helping an individual handler with their individual issue.

chrokeva · Post by **chrokeva** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:52 am

The first difference I notice in these two videos is that the dogs temperament seems to be quite different. In the first video (Higgins) the dog appears to be soft where in the second video the dog seems more confident not sure that it makes a difference but I would think the approach on these two dogs would be different? To be honest I had a hard time with the accent on the Polmaise video and wished I could have understood more as I am sure there was some great information in there.
I am also curious for the folks that have had success using the Higgins method have they been using the head halter and do they feel much of the success has been due to the halter?
I believe a pro should give the dog/handler as much specific information as possible to help with an issue. To play "Cesar Millan" and tell the owner to "be a pack leader" or to say to "train how a dog thinks" is really vague and can cause more problems than it fixes. Someone once said to me that "you just need to be more stubborn than the dog" which makes a lot of sense. Patience, consistency and perseverance seems to be a good approach for leash work (at least it has been for me).

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:40 am

Many years ago when my kids started training and competeing with dogs both in the ring and obedience. We took classes from probably 15 different trainers. A few for breed ring, most for obedience. I found huge differences in techniques and amount of pressure used. When I read, go find a trainer I cringe. Most, I found were teaching a style and amount of pressure that worked on the breeds that they were training. Advice from someone about using a trainer only means they like that trainer for one reason or another. Be very careful before turning your dog over to a trainer, or taking on line advice. What works on a 110 pound retriever may destroy the style, confidence and independence needed by a pointing breed. And for the rude if my tool and technique doesn't work then you don't know what you are doing, just ignore those. Often getting help with training or learning to train is the right advice. Find someone training your type of dog, and using an amount of pressure that you are comfortable with and that your dog will be able to handle. Use common sense and care in finding the right help. Some of the pointing breeds have off the wall energy when young. Don't mistake that for tough. Some can be soft and won't handle severe pressure.

Greg Jacobs

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:50 pm

greg jacobs wrote:Many years ago when my kids started training and competeing with dogs both in the ring and obedience. We took classes from probably 15 different trainers. A few for breed ring, most for obedience. I found huge differences in techniques and amount of pressure used. When I read, go find a trainer I cringe. Most, I found were teaching a style and amount of pressure that worked on the breeds that they were training. Advice from someone about using a trainer only means they like that trainer for one reason or another. Be very careful before turning your dog over to a trainer, or taking on line advice. What works on a 110 pound retriever may destroy the style, confidence and independence needed by a pointing breed. And for the rude if my tool and technique doesn't work then you don't know what you are doing, just ignore those. Often getting help with training or learning to train is the right advice. Find someone training your type of dog, and using an amount of pressure that you are comfortable with and that your dog will be able to handle. Use common sense and care in finding the right help. Some of the pointing breeds have off the wall energy when young. Don't mistake that for tough. Some can be soft and won't handle severe pressure.

Greg Jacobs

Pressure can be varied to fit any dogs temperament. A choke chain isn't just one set amount of pressure, just like an e-collar, it can be varied, so yes, if it isn't working, it's because you aren't doing it right. That's why people use them on every breed. If they didn't work effectively on pointers, then the PS/PF people, hickox, as well as most other pointer trainers wouldn't use them. Sorry, but I see little to no point at all in other methods to teach a dog to heel and work on a leash. A choke chain teaches a commad, and reinforces it. Sorry but I just don't see brad Higgins method being too beneficial when a choke chain will accomplish the same thing, but also make it a verbal command that can be overlaid with an e-collar as well.

I work with a pro who uses the same methods, with various pressure levels for basic obedience for many breeds. The choke chain then can be overlaid with an e-collar as well. So yes, if it isn't working for you, you aren't doing it right, because you aren't reading the dog to use the right pressure, as well as not using the tool in the proper method as well. I don't think many gun dogs can't handle a choke chain on a check cord.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:11 pm

feedback from the OP , would be nice.

h&t · Post by **h&t** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:45 pm

I always get real suspicious whenever any one starts telling me they know how a dog thinks.

My thinking, exactly

What works on a 110 pound retriever may destroy the style, confidence and independence needed by a pointing breed

Also very true.

Polmaise, you IMO one of those who can train dogs, but have hard time explaining how to do it to others.
BTW, miss you on the other (uk) board. Just make a bloody video showing how you train one of your labs to heel. Like the ones you had of playing fetch with them. I don't want to hear anymore about lions and wolves, leave it to the Discovery

I'll have to make a trip to Scotland one day just to meet you and Bill

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:33 pm

I recon I know what my dog is thinking most times....

I call that ""reading the dog".

"

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:53 pm

Hey Soarer31,

Great response. You stole my thunder.

I just started a new topic about reading a dog.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:11 am

Higgins wrote:Hello Jegan,

Here is a video I did a while ago using what I call my "Packleader" leash. It works great for young dogs in getting them to understand my claiming of space. I don't use it as obedience or a "heel" command. Dogs don't understand that. What they do understand, is a dog (or human) that simply claims space or things. With this method, I can usually get a dog understanding walking with me with no pulling, and steadiness (I can stop him, drop the leash and walk away) in a session or two. The dog in this video had had no obedience training and this was his first time with the "Packleader" leash.

Hope it helps.

http://youtu.be/I3FEQcCY1E0

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Brad-
Respectfully, dogs do in fact understand a HEEL command same as they also understand SIT, HERE, Whoa, Drop, HOLD, NO, Kennel, etc., etc..
Don't quite understand how you'd re- enforce a command that's never been given.
Not sure if I "read" your student wrong, or misunderstood what he was 'thinking', but did notice where his tail was during this whole exercise.