bumper question

[wolfcreek]

First time training a gun dog. My female GSP at 21 weeks old now is doing great! I have been tossing double bumpers for her to mark and retrieve. She holds steady for the tap to retrieve and brings them both back. She now knows "hold" and "give" as well. What I did find was during a retrieve she would search frantically even if she was ontop of the bumper sometimes. Researching I found apparently dogs see orange bumpers as black and that it's better to use white bumpers for training. I couldn't find solid white bumpers and ended up buying 2 half black/half white. For some odd reason she will NOT pick up these bumpers yet she continues no problem to hold and retrieve the orange ones. She will run straight for the black and white ones but as soon as she puts her mouth on them she backs off and returns empty. I cast her back several times and each time she does the same thing ( mouth touches and she refuses ).

Differences - Orange bumpers are slightly smaller in diameter but not by much. They have a sort of squiggle ridge for grip. Black and white bumpers have bumps for grip. My orange bumpers I tossed into a bag of quail wings for a few days to get a scent on them. The black and white ones I just took out of the package and started using them thinking she already retrieves bumpers now.

My thoughts are:
a) She is teething and has been loosing teeth right now so possibly the harder bump texture is putting her off.
b) There is a store scent and not a quail scent to these new bumpers.
c) The black / white throws her off ( she sort of appears as though she doesn't know where to grab it ).

Or is there something else I may be missing here?

[Sharon]

"She is teething and has been loosing teeth right now so possibly the harder bump texture is putting her off." quote

I'd put my money one that one.

[ctcahoe]

Black/White bumpers are for training marks. The flashing as they spin helps the dog see them. White bumpers are good for force fetch and fetch to pile training, they are easy to see sitting in the grass. Orange bumpers are for blinds or making the dog find the bumper with this nose, since the orange blends in with the green grass.

Teething is probably a good bet.

[Bluesky2012]

First time training a gun dog. My female GSP at 21 weeks old now is doing great! I have been tossing double bumpers for her to mark and retrieve. She holds steady for the tap to retrieve and brings them both back. She now knows "hold" and "give" as well. What I did find was during a retrieve she would search frantically even if she was ontop of the bumper sometimes. Researching I found apparently dogs see orange bumpers as black and that it's better to use white bumpers for training. I couldn't find solid white bumpers and ended up buying 2 half black/half white. For some odd reason she will NOT pick up these bumpers yet she continues no problem to hold and retrieve the orange ones. She will run straight for the black and white ones but as soon as she puts her mouth on them she backs off and returns empty. I cast her back several times and each time she does the same thing ( mouth touches and she refuses ).

Differences - Orange bumpers are slightly smaller in diameter but not by much. They have a sort of squiggle ridge for grip. Black and white bumpers have bumps for grip. My orange bumpers I tossed into a bag of quail wings for a few days to get a scent on them. The black and white ones I just took out of the package and started using them thinking she already retrieves bumpers now.

My thoughts are:
a) She is teething and has been loosing teeth right now so possibly the harder bump texture is putting her off.
b) There is a store scent and not a quail scent to these new bumpers.
c) The black / white throws her off ( she sort of appears as though she doesn't know where to grab it ).

Or is there something else I may be missing here?

Dog is teething. Slow down. And don't "command back", your dog has no idea what your doing and since it's a short mark that you're commanding back on, you could lead to confusion or popping. As well, do walking singles. Doubles at that age and the ways you're likely doing doubles won't be worth any real training value. Start a program at 6 months. For now relax or else you can cause problems.

Also quail scent, etc is bull crap. A dog should retrieve a bumper no matter what. They don't care the scent. The dokens stuff is just a training gimmick. Force fetch will fix it.

Big thing is slow down and learn what you're doing. You're trying too hard too fast and will likely cause issues.

[dan janssen]

Try using white paint roller covers they have worked well for me in that situation . I like the ones that are plastic in the inside you can use them in water

[wolfcreek]

Try using white paint roller covers they have worked well for me in that situation . I like the ones that are plastic in the inside you can use them in water

Great suggestion! Thanks! I figured it was the teething issue but wanted to make sure. Also thanks to the post explaining the different bumper colours. To understand the "popping" post ..... She has retrieved doubles tossed as far as 200 feet, takes off instant on tap for go and straight back with the retrieve. I've only back stepped and reduced to a 30 foot check cord since the day she picked up on a quail herself and returned to me with it in her mouth. I figured check cord until we back step to basics and correct the self hunt before it becomes a problem. My understanding of "popping" is a "stop" in the middle of a retrieve? So are you saying by tossing doubles on a 30 foot check cord later could cause popping around 30 feet away? Or am I just not following what you were cautioning on?

[Bluesky2012]

Try using white paint roller covers they have worked well for me in that situation . I like the ones that are plastic in the inside you can use them in water

Great suggestion! Thanks! I figured it was the teething issue but wanted to make sure. Also thanks to the post explaining the different bumper colours. To understand the "popping" post ..... She has retrieved doubles tossed as far as 200 feet, takes off instant on tap for go and straight back with the retrieve. I've only back stepped and reduced to a 30 foot check cord since the day she picked up on a quail herself and returned to me with it in her mouth. I figured check cord until we back step to basics and correct the self hunt before it becomes a problem. My understanding of "popping" is a "stop" in the middle of a retrieve? So are you saying by tossing doubles on a 30 foot check cord later could cause popping around 30 feet away? Or am I just not following what you were cautioning on?

At that age you need to work on extending her marking distance and not so much those kinds of marking concepts. I bet you are standing by the dog, and throwing short doubles. That is not important right now because they are too short of marks. Instead start working lots of singles at increasing distances, changing cover, and tougher cover. Walking singles is a great way to do it. 200 ft is too short, 200 yards is more of where you get to. Short worthless marks cause the dog to get used to a short hunting range and will later cause the dog tostop early or pop. Everyone wants to move to the cool looking stuff, but the foundation wasn't set right. Slow down, build distance and confidence in marking in heavy cover THEN work on doubles down the road. Walking singles. Do them.

[Bluesky2012]

As well, at that age I'd stop all retrieves. Throwing a paint roller won't do anything because you can't throw it far enough. Just take a break and hammer obedience until the teeth come in, then start CC and FF.

[wolfcreek]

Great, Thanks for the explanation. In other posts I have made I noted that the training was being back stepped. For the most I have her back to the basics to strengthen them and then take each step back up. I continued to toss a couple doubles at the end of each training session just to keep her excited about the training. But with what you are saying I'll have to re-think that part of the session now. I assumed popping issues only developed if you stopped a dog through a retreive in the same spot too often and I wasn't stopping her at all yet. Thanks for your insight.

[gundogguy]

At what point are you planning on introducing your 21 week old German Short-Hair to birds??

[DonF]

You'd do her and yourself a big favor if you slowed down a bit and let her grow up some. I took a photo years ago of several different color bumpers laying on the ground, B&W photo. Dogs are color blind but they should have no trouble seeing the bumpers anyway. Sounds to my like she's not really using her nose yet. Your scent should be on the bumper and she should smell that. Buying scent in a store is wasted money. If they smell like what we think the birds should smell like, I wonder what they really smell like to a dog? I think the majority of training aid's are simply a marketing tool designed to sell thing's. Every body want's you to think they make a better mouse trap!

[wolfcreek]

At what point are you planning on introducing your 21 week old German Short-Hair to birds??

When I first got her I took the advice "let her be a pup and get comfortable to exploring without sticking right to your side". She got use to the property and I introduced her to quail wings to get her sniffer going. The same day she took off into the bush and came running back with a quail in her mouth. Since then any bird she sees / smells in the bush she is head strung to go after. Now that she is bird crazy she turns off all response to me on commands as soon as she has a scent. So the intro to birds has been held back to re-enforce her basics more.

[wolfcreek]

You'd do her and yourself a big favor if you slowed down a bit and let her grow up some. I took a photo years ago of several different color bumpers laying on the ground, B&W photo. Dogs are color blind but they should have no trouble seeing the bumpers anyway. Sounds to my like she's not really using her nose yet. Your scent should be on the bumper and she should smell that. Buying scent in a store is wasted money. If they smell like what we think the birds should smell like, I wonder what they really smell like to a dog? I think the majority of training aid's are simply a marketing tool designed to sell thing's. Every body want's you to think they make a better mouse trap!

She has her nose going constantly. A breeze and her sniffer is in the air urging her to take off after the smell. I have never used store bought scents either. Not only because of your point if they actually have the scent correct but I have always wondered if these formulas hold up. Scents sitting on a shelf to me could turn sour ( for a lack of better explanation ). I'm not claiming that they do ..... I just have my opinion that they could.

[Sharon]

"Now that she is bird crazy she turns off all response to me on commands as soon as she has a scent. So the intro to birds has been held back to re-enforce her basics more." quote

5 months old. Time to start with birds and work on obedience with birds. CC / launcher.. Just my opinion.; I'm not for hurrying but ..........Are you following some programme?( time to be teaching "whoa" in the backyard too.

(I've only had 2 GSPs, but at 5 months I was concentrating more on birds than retrieving.)

[wolfcreek]

Yes we are working on "whoa" each day. i have tried to hook up with trainers in the area but haven't found one available yet. So for now as I back step to get her basics down better I've just been following the Freddy King self training vids and researching everything I can. I'm not trying to rush her by any means. She just seems to be moving faster than I am when she comes with a surprise quail in her mouth. It kind put me into a panic that I needed to get training into place before she develops into self hunting.

[Bluesky2012]

Yes we are working on "whoa" each day. i have tried to hook up with trainers in the area but haven't found one available yet. So for now as I back step to get her basics down better I've just been following the Freddy King self training vids and researching everything I can. I'm not trying to rush her by any means. She just seems to be moving faster than I am when she comes with a surprise quail in her mouth. It kind put me into a panic that I needed to get training into place before she develops into self hunting.

Look a lot of people train pointers on here, but fewer train versatile GSPs. I'll tell you as a first hand trainer, I have a GSP I use for quail, pheasant, and ducks. You're rushing it and will cause issues. Freddy king is training a lab. I also have trained labs. Big difference. You NEED a season of pointer/quail exposure first before focusing on the "retriever aspect" (not to be confused with retrieving a quail). A pointer should drive to run free and search. It is held back on scent. A retriever is held back at all times, and is sent out by force on command. Big difference. You have to let the dog spend time getting comfortable out front first before trying to reel it in to your side. You reel it in to early, you ruin the pointer, and only get a half a$$ed retriever at best. Let it be a pointer first, then see if it can become a retriever. Don't follow freddy king or lardy, etc till next year. Seriously.

[wolfcreek]

Thanks again Bluesky for the input. I can see where your advice is coming from and it makes a lot of sense.

[Bluesky2012]

Thanks again Bluesky for the input. I can see where your advice is coming from and it makes a lot of sense.

Just trust me. I've spent enough time fixing issues caused by overdoing it with a pointer. Easier to reel em back, rather than a dog fearing being out there, and you having to convince it to leave your side later. Been there, done that.

[wolfcreek]

I believe I got the message ! Putting bumpers up and going to focus on pointer training first ..... at her speed. She's already bird crazy and I guess about half way there with Whoa. Will hold a nice steady point until game flushes ( jumps the gun once in a while ). So, picking up 25 pigeons tomorrow and ordered a couple dogtra QL launchers with remote today. I figure let her discover the new pigeon coop and build the drive just with their presence while waiting on the launchers. Then tone intro the launchers to her while at the same time strengthening her yard Whoa. Go from there to launching a few and steadying her Whoa on the flush when she is ready. Your feedback plz Bluesky? And others ofcourse

To me this isn't going too fast with her. She needs to learn Whoa now because if off the check cord she bolts for the bush and I don't need a second sucessful self hunt from her. She was quite proud with the first quail she brought back in mouth! And considering what you said (bluesky) about keeping a pointer reeled in harming them as pointers, being on a lead every time she's outside could do the same as retriever training I think. Glad you are in here bluesky! You read exactly what I wanted out of her in the end and I certainly don't want to mess up a good dog by improper training. I know she's going to make a great pointer / retreiver. It's all she thinks about! Bolting for brush cover in search of birds and playing in the water front every day.