Interesting blog from Clicker Training Pioneer

[Doc E]

Interesting blog post from clicker training pioneer.....

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=884

Although I've long understood the deficiences in the purely positive approach, I am surprised by the level of deceit by the "founder". There is nothing more despicable in my opinion than a dog training guru that lies.

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[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Praise and pressure.... You can raise a good pet by rewards only but I cant see how to raise a gundog that way....And I lived with an Agility, Obedience trainer for years... The dogs did fine for her in those environments but did not respond well in the field.

I got over 30 FT placements, 20 MH legs as well as the first MHA on the same dogs.

[Trekmoor]

I agree with the above. I've just finished posting on a "positive only" gundog training site to say that a well behaved, good working dog in an obedience training hall is nice to see but dogs need to work among game out in wild places before they or their handlers really impress me. I like the idea of "positive only" training but think it has a long way to go yet before it becomes practical for most hunters.

Sooner or later I will get chucked off that forum for failing to conform to the rules of not ever posting anything about "other methods."
I don't think I will mind too much if that happens.

Bill T.

[aulrich]

All I can say is "snake proofing"

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

All I can say is "snake proofing"

Funny. I would love to hear how to do that.

[Nutmeg247]

I think it's necessary to separate the non-political, science-based aspect of operant conditioning, which I firmly believe is helpful in many contexts, from the "force-free, all-positive" movement, that unfortunately can be quite nasty and even cult-like. The "movement" doesn't even want to acknowledge intra-species dominance between WOLVES, much less dogs, as one example, simply because the idea of wolves as one happy, non-striving collective is more comfortable politically.

"Force-free" training as a movement is remarkably intolerant even of dissent in it's own ranks. There's one, to me, nifty approach to dealing with sharp-shy dogs called behavior adjustment training, or B.A.T., http://empoweredanimals.com/ , that if you have a dog with this need, seems to me logical, evidence-based, very low-pressure, and if you screw up, forgiving of mistakes by a d.i.y. trainer. Because it risks exposing sharp-shy dogs to things they react to, and taking them out of their happy place, it's considered verboten by many force-free trainers to even mention B.A.T. ????

People like vets come under tremendous personal attack for even mentioning traditional training alternatives, such as either a bark collar as one alternative, and R+ approaches as another.

That said, I've personally learned some useful stuff from things like some of Susan Garrett's training games. I taught my dog to retrieve using a "shaped retrieve" R+ approach, though he's not as reliable as if he'd been ff'd. Like the blog author, I think lots of field-oriented trainers use various types of markers for some of their training, even if they don't use a clicker per se. Many successful agility trainers (which is very different from hunting) put their dogs on pretty strict controls in terms of making sure the dog works for everything, so they use pressure too, just as some "balanced" trainers may use a clicker.

@Trekmoor, if that's PM's group, I checked it out and just didn't see much discussion beyond a basic level, anyway. I'm still a training taker as opposed to giver (don't have much good advice yet to give), so didn't see what I'd get from being there.

[nritacco]

All I can say is "snake proofing"

Funny. I would love to hear how to do that.

Pointing Dog Journal had a nice article on "Snake Proofing" back in 2002 / 2004 time frame. Basically, there is a team that has captured and de-fanged diamondbacks (have fun with that) When they put on a training seminar, they plant the snakes, and then lead the dogs to them on Check Cords. (Oh, the dog has an e-collar on as well). When the diamondback rattles, the collar is used to associate the rattle / scent of the snake with the e-conditioning. Sounds logical. I will try to find the exact date / issue of the article if you are interested.

[Spy Car]

All I can say is "snake proofing"

Funny. I would love to hear how to do that.

Pointing Dog Journal had a nice article on "Snake Proofing" back in 2002 / 2004 time frame. Basically, there is a team that has captured and de-fanged diamondbacks (have fun with that) When they put on a training seminar, they plant the snakes, and then lead the dogs to them on Check Cords. (Oh, the dog has an e-collar on as well). When the diamondback rattles, the collar is used to associate the rattle / scent of the snake with the e-conditioning. Sounds logical. I will try to find the exact date / issue of the article if you are interested.

I have an acquaintance who put his gundog through three Snake Proofing sessions, which was at least one too many. The dog became averse to snakes, so the training was "successful" in that regard, the only problem is our ranges are covered with the scent of rattlesnakes, and I'm told the dog (now deceast) was thensforth a nervous wreck out in the feild.

I don't know how hard they were hitting that e-collar, but this fellow still feels a lot of remorse for doing something he thought would protect his dog, only to regret the unintended consequences.

Bill

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

All I can say is "snake proofing"

Funny. I would love to hear how to do that.

Pointing Dog Journal had a nice article on "Snake Proofing" back in 2002 / 2004 time frame. Basically, there is a team that has captured and de-fanged diamondbacks (have fun with that) When they put on a training seminar, they plant the snakes, and then lead the dogs to them on Check Cords. (Oh, the dog has an e-collar on as well). When the diamondback rattles, the collar is used to associate the rattle / scent of the snake with the e-conditioning. Sounds logical. I will try to find the exact date / issue of the article if you are interested.

Sorry I wasn't clear.... I meant Snake Avoidance training with treats ONLY..... I train Snake avoidance and I have no problem catching and de-fanging them. I caught 6 Mojave's in one weekend by hand and they are 14 times more venomous than a Diamondback.

[Nutmeg247]

Mojave Greens are the main local snake here -- they are actually pretty cool looking imo. Interesting that their venom is so different that the vaccine doesn't work for them.

As for R+ snake avoidance, http://www.snakeavoidancewithoutshock.c ... -work.html , there are a few people who seem to offer it. Relative to the blog mentioned at the start of the thread mentioning chasing prey being naturally reinforcing for a dog, for R+ snake avoidance to work reliably, my guess is you'd need a very low prey-drive dog.