Whoa when on point?

[myersc]

Is whoa used when your dog is on point? Or should nothing be said when a dog is on point? Dog is a two- year old GSP. This is her first year hunting and so far she had not busted a bird when she is on point. She has consistently waited for me to flush the bird.

When she is on point is it a bad thing to give her her release command so that she can flush the bird? As I told this I think this would be the wrong thing to do.

[RayGubernat]

myersc -

To the extent possible, the interaction should be between the dog and the bird. The less you can interfere with that interaction, the better things will be. Your verbalizations, of ANY kind, when the dog is on point are a distraction to the dog, as it has been trained to listen and respond to you and your commands.

Yes it is better to be quiet, both verbally and when walking about, when the dog is on point.

As far as releasing your dog to flush for you...that is entirely your call. There are folks out there, for whom anything less than totally steady to wing shot and fall is an absolute requirement. Since I field trial my hunting dogs, I happen to be one of them. However, most of the time, there is honestly, no need for that level of finish in the gunning fields.

If you are hunting alone, releasing the dog to push the bird into the air will get you a whole lot more good shots. I get that.

There is an alternative whereby you can literally have your cake an eat it also. You can install a separate command whereby the dog takes one single step and then re-establishes point. I have seen it done and it is a thing of beauty. After the handler(shooter) positioned themselves, they then commanded the staunchly pointing dog to "ADVANCE". whereupon the dog took a single step forward, toward the bird scent. Many times that single step was enough to send the bird skyward. Occasionally a second or third step was required. The beauty of it was that the dog was under total control and the pointing discipline was maintained throughout and the shooter was in the best place for a good shot.

Unfortunately, I never learned exactly how to get it done. I have a pretty good idea how to try, but have never actually done it.

RayG

[Pepper]

myersc -

To the extent possible, the interaction should be between the dog and the bird. The less you can interfere with that interaction, the better things will be. Your verbalizations, of ANY kind, when the dog is on point are a distraction to the dog, as it has been trained to listen and respond to you and your commands.

Yes it is better to be quiet, both verbally and when walking about, when the dog is on point.

As far as releasing your dog to flush for you...that is entirely your call. There are folks out there, for whom anything less than totally steady to wing shot and fall is an absolute requirement. Since I field trial my hunting dogs, I happen to be one of them. However, most of the time, there is honestly, no need for that level of finish in the gunning fields.

If you are hunting alone, releasing the dog to push the bird into the air will get you a whole lot more good shots. I get that.

There is an alternative whereby you can literally have your cake an eat it also. You can install a separate command whereby the dog takes one single step and then re-establishes point. I have seen it done and it is a thing of beauty. After the handler(shooter) positioned themselves, they then commanded the staunchly pointing dog to "ADVANCE". whereupon the dog took a single step forward, toward the bird scent. Many times that single step was enough to send the bird skyward. Occasionally a second or third step was required. The beauty of it was that the dog was under total control and the pointing discipline was maintained throughout and the shooter was in the best place for a good shot.

Unfortunately, I never learned exactly how to get it done. I have a pretty good idea how to try, but have never actually done it.

RayG

Thank you for sharing that. Much appreciated.

[Soarer31]

Excellent post Ray

[Trekmoor]

There is an alternative whereby you can literally have your cake an eat it also. You can install a separate command whereby the dog takes one single step and then re-establishes point. I have seen it done and it is a thing of beauty. After the handler(shooter) positioned themselves, they then commanded the staunchly pointing dog to "ADVANCE". whereupon the dog took a single step forward, toward the bird scent. Many times that single step was enough to send the bird skyward. Occasionally a second or third step was required. The beauty of it was that the dog was under total control and the pointing discipline was maintained throughout and the shooter was in the best place for a good shot.

Unfortunately, I never learned exactly how to get it done. I have a pretty good idea how to try, but have never actually done it.

RayG

Hi Ray, if you are describing what I think you are then you would see it at pointer/setter trials held here on the grouse moors at the very start of the shooting season before the grouse begin to "get wise" and fly off from any too close approach. A good many trial dogs and their handlers do as you describe but no specific intentional training is done to achieve it.... not by HPR trainers anyway. I've had a couple of HPR's (a Brittany and a GSP) that did this but some judges considered it a fault for these breeds to behave in that way. They felt the dogs were "sticky to flush."

I cannot be certain but I think this "fault" begins when trainers encourage their dogs to hold point with a bit more stroking etc. than an individual dog actually needs. The dog then becomes slightly reluctant to move in to flush on command from the point and you get that "one step at a time" approach to the birds.

Sorry for side tracking this thread.

Bill T.

[DonF]

I will whoa a dog quietly when it's on point but never whoa it into a point. I come around from the front of the dog so I can keep an eye on the dog. If the dog starts collecting itself, I stop and caution the dog with a quiet whoa. If I'm not in front of the dog and it does that, I stay shut up and pop the bird.

[crazyboy]

Keep quiet!

[DonF]

Dave Walker made a point of telling people to be quiet. Showed up at a trial near Madras, Ore years ago and brought his first training tape with him. First off he showed training equipment. He held up a roll of duct tape and said to put it over your mouth. His wife, Fay, piped up right away and said no one needed it more than him! But I agree, silence is golden!

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I will whoa a dog quietly when it's on point but never whoa it into a point. I come around from the front of the dog so I can keep an eye on the dog. If the dog starts collecting itself, I stop and caution the dog with a quiet whoa. If I'm not in front of the dog and it does that, I stay shut up and pop the bird.

^^^^^This. It hurts nothing. Its simply a reminder of what the Dog has learned,

[tailcrackin]

It seems to help calm the person, more than the dog. Dogs don't understand English. They understand tone. If you feel you need to intimidate the dog to stand there, while you do your part of the job..........you haven't taught the job fully. Dogs are usually a bird away from a blow up, accept that, and the training will be a lot smoother for the dog. Thanks Jonesy

[Sharon]

I will whoa a dog quietly when it's on point but never whoa it into a point. I come around from the front of the dog so I can keep an eye on the dog. If the dog starts collecting itself, I stop and caution the dog with a quiet whoa. If I'm not in front of the dog and it does that, I stay shut up and pop the bird.

x2 and as Brazosvalleyvizslas said, "it is a reminder of what the dog has learned" .............at home in the backyard/house with no birds. Sh

"Dogs are usually a bird away from a blow up..........." quote tail crackin' (I love that quote. )

[ezzy333]

I will whoa a dog quietly when it's on point but never whoa it into a point. I come around from the front of the dog so I can keep an eye on the dog. If the dog starts collecting itself, I stop and caution the dog with a quiet whoa. If I'm not in front of the dog and it does that, I stay shut up and pop the bird.

x2 and as Brazosvalleyvizslas said, "it is a reminder of what the dog has learned" .............at home in the backyard/house with no birds. Sh

"Dogs are usually a bird away from a blow up..........." quote tail crackin' (I love that quote. )

Love the quote and oh so true.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Billy Gibbons talked/talks to his dogs on point. I was chastised for being silent when a normally honest dog broke. To each their own but I will give calm reminders from now on. I haven't seen the down side.

[Stoneface]

Ray's a hundred percent right on this one.

Whoa has nothing to do with pointing whatsoever. You can teach a Chihuahua to Whoa then put a bird in front of him, but that doesn't mean he's pointing. It means he's standing there with a bird in front of him, but the bird is incidental. If a dog is truly on point then he's stopped because he thinks if he moves the bird may get away. If I'm hunting, I never tell my dogs to Whoa, but if I'm in a trial and I see a dog look like they may be coming unglued and might break, I'll Whoa them. It's better to have a dog pointing a bird than it is to have him Whoaed up on a bird, but it's better to have a dog stand a Whoa through a flush than it is to have him break point.

[cjhills]

I routinely whoa my dogs on point. quietly and calmly as I walk in to flush. It calms the dog and me. The have come to expect it. Some birds, mostly Huns in a covey, will hold forever for a dg on point and fly immediately when they hear a human voice. The other issue I have on allowing the dog to flush is sometimes the birds are to far off for a shot.........................Cj

[trueblu]

IMHO never whoa a dog unless forced into it. Meaning, if you are at a trial, dog is jumpy, green, etc. and you feel it is better to whoa him that to have him bumrush the birds, then whoa him. Better to take care of this in a training situation that in competition. Looks amateurish.

Train the dog, whether for hunting, trialing, or both, that birds mean whoa and you won't have to use the verbal command. Nothing looks better than walking in front of a dog, saying nothing, flushing, shooting, and the dog continues to look like a million dollars. WHOA....WHOA...whoa...whup....whup..... takes away from the performance. Same is true in hunting. Amaze your friends, keep your mouth shut.

I've seen John Rabidou flush a million birds, I've seen him give an index reminder of "by God stand still" to his dogs, but I've never heard him say, "whoa....whoa....whoa...whoa......" But, what does he know!?

Get it taught in training, if the dog moves at a trial, pick him up. If he moves when hunting, correct him. As has been said, "we're always training".