Running my Setter-run off

[Kingberd]

Looking for some pointers for my 7 month old ES. He's got his yard work and obedience down real well. Works well on a cc. Stays with me on a cc as well as goes with me. I can let a 30/50 ft cc drag on him anywhere and he's right there with good range. I take that thing off for a second and he runs off. I've introduced an ecollar last week (here only) and he's solid. I haven't yet let him run with the ecollar. The last thing I want is for him to run, me give the command and him ignore the collar and keep running. Maybe I'll keep working the ecollar for a bit more before I let him run. Am I over thinking this?

[Sharon]

WElcome to the forum.

Is he coming every time now in the yard? Do you have to use the e collar for him to come often?
If he's compliant in the yard at coming then it's time to take the plunge in the field.

PS If he ignores you ( highly unlikely), with the e collar level you are now using , raise it ONE level and call again. Hopefully you have an e collar that allows for the level to be easily raised in the field.

addition:

You're nervous about losing your dog. This is VERY common at the age of your dog. They stay pretty close as younger pups and then we have to just go for it . I well remember that feeling. Have full ID on the dog , find a safe place , not near roads , and you just have to go for it.

[shags]

Define "runs off".
Does it mean he ranges farther than you are comfortable eith, or does it means he takes off for the horizon never to be seen until you run him down in the next zip code?

It sounds like maybe you've been too controlling of his range. Bird dogs need to work at a range that is natural for them; otherwise you are both in for misery. You can reel them in some, and have them handle, but you need to let them do what's in them to do.

At 7 months your pup is finding his range and independence. This is natural, normal, amd desirable. Can you take him to a safe place where you can let him roll in order to see his maximum, without you getting nervous and reining him in? Once you see his limits you might feel better - might not be as fast and far and furious as you think.

Him blowing off your recall command is part of his independence and you can fix that with judicious use of the ecollar. Once he's conditioned to it, give your command one time ( make sure he has heard you), bump him with the collar ( low setting, nick) and he ought to come running to you. You can also put some power steering on him the same way, and it will help with limiting his range. Change directions, give him your turn command, if he ignores, nick at low setting, you keep going and he should turn your way.

Sometimes I let my dogs roll, then call them in and keep them close for a few minutes, then let them go again. They learn to hunt the area I want, but they don't get frustrated by having to stay short the whole time. We're both happy.

This has worked on all my setter pups. They wear collars every time out, but I very rarely have to use them after one or two sessions of recall or turning with me.

Good luck with your pup.

[Kingberd]

I rarely have to use the ecollar in the yard. Just remind him once in a while. When I say run off, I mean zip code. Thanks for the tips so far. The other part of my concern is obvious danger. We live in the suburbs and on a fairly busy road. I work him mostly at my cabin in the mountains. Obvious danger at home but if he runs off in the mountains, he's gone.

[Kingberd]

Thanks for the tips. Runs off meaning next zip code. Yes he comes very well with a cc overlayed with the ecollar in the yard . Just need to remind him once in a while. We live in the suburbs near a fairly busy road so that poses obvious concerns. I often work him at my home in the mountains but if he runs off there, he's gone. I guess my plan would be to find a nice size open field to let him run and see what happens. Try and let him find his range

[mnaj_springer]

Sounds like you need a GPS collar. Did the sire and dam range out like he does?

[Kingberd]

I'll ask the breeder Mnaj. Good thought. Would hate to spend another $700 on the new garmin if I don't have to. Though I'm not opposed to it. Funny thing is the breeder mentioned that my pup always stayed with him and he had a hard time getting the pup to range. The breeders facility is a lot different than mine though! 50 acres of fences in farm stocked with quail

[shags]

Another vote for a gps collar. They're pricey but worth every penny. Maybe you can ask Santa for one this year. Because you're in mountains, get an extended range antenna.
I don't blame you for being worried about your pup in the hills. Some mountains, you can see your dog for a long way; others, like in the east, they are out of sight and gone at 150 yards or less.

Try to find a good safe area and work him there; maybe some cropland? Or a big school athletic field? Let him roll, and call him. Nick him on the lowest setting he responds to if he doesn't obey. Keep the lesson to a minimum, like one recall. Don't use that one time to call him in to put him in the truck. When he comes to you, love him up, water him, and turn him loose. When it's time to go home, and he comes to you, don't immediately put him in the truck, but spend several minutes loving him up, playing a little, or some other good thing - you don't want him connecting a recall to giving up fun just yet. Don't overdo the lesson, don't do multiple times each session. Save that for later.

A couple lessons tops always did it for my pups.

There are other methods where you carry pigeons in your pockets and call the pup in as you toss one, to teach the pup that where you are, birds are. Those are helpful but given your situation with the roads I would take the more immediate remedy of careful use of the ecollar.

[Kingberd]

Shags... What would your description of good range for a setter in yards? Though I understand that this maybe different for each dog. Just looking for a general idea. This is my first setter. Always had flushers that like to hunt close.

[shags]

Being a flusher guy you might have some difficulty with adjusting your mind - and eyes- to a pointy dog. Give it time and be patient with yourself It's a lot less stressful for you to adjust than it is to push your rangy dog into a short dog mold and get him to stay there consistently.

A flusher's job is to push birds up so you can shoot. A pointing dog's job is to cover the available ground, find, point, and hold birds until you get there when you can flush and shoot. You want the dog to cover the acreage so you don't have to.

So, I want my dogs to fill up whatever space they're in. If I put them in say a baseball field, I want them on the warning track while I'm at home plate. Or if I'm under a goalpost, they better be under the other one. Where I train, on cropland, pastures, and woods, 800 yards is fine in the open, 200 in the winter woods, maybe 50 in the summer woods when the cover is really thick. A couple of my dogs are a little bigger than that, and a couple are shorter. But the idea is that I take them for what they are, and also expect them to adjust to me ( in whatever cover) as needed. They adjust because they are trained to come to me and to go with me...by the method previously mentioned. BUT they almost always get opportunity to range to their limits during exercise or training sessions. Not every time, but as often as I can manage it.

IMO your best bet would be to get that pup to recall and turn with you so you can be more comfortable and confident with him. That way, if he's by nature too much dog for your ground and cover, you will have some control and he'll be useful to you. As you progress with training you can use other techniques to shorten him up; they involve using lots of birds.

One of these times you ought to actually measure your pup's range. Note your relative positions at his furthest, then go back without him at some time and step it off or whatever. When you have an approximately accurate number to work with, it'll be easier for you. IME it isn't unusual for someone to turn a dog loose and think it's running off out of control when in reality it's not as far away as they think; if in fact your pup is ranging really big, and you can relate that yardage ( or mileage as the case may be ) when asking for advice, it will be more effective.

Good luck to you...I hope you can enjoy the ride.

[Sharon]

Excellent post! Saving that one.

[ruffbritt4]

I agree with shags. I was worried about my britts range and I started a thread on here asking for advice. I was told that it is his natural instinct to range that far. Then I bought a gps collar and let the dog hunt. It gives the hunter peace of mind, and makes the hunt more enjoyable. The Garmin Astro 320 is a good unit, I have the dc 40 collar.

[Kingberd]

I plan on picking up an Astro this week. Thanks for all the advise. I'm more comfortable just reading these responses