choke chain versus prong collar

[mowermandan]

im am renew at pup training ive done it but its been many years 30 or more I have a new gsp pup coming the middle of dec and ive been reading all I can on training to refamliarize myself I alwas used choke chain and a check lead for training we didn't have prong collars or ecollars in the day but my dogs came out quite good so other than the prongs whats the difference and advantages one over the other I understand the advantage of e collar being a tool that can be used on or off leash and at a greater distance but don't quite get the prong collar isn't choke chain easier on dog

[ruffbritt4]

I use the pinch collar when teaching heel and taking the dog for a walk.

[Bluesky2012]

Choke chain is better for teaching obedience because you apply the correction. A prong collar is made for the dog to apply it's own correction when it pulls on the leash.

Learn to use a choke chain. It will also transition to the e-collar well too.

[ruffbritt4]

Choke chain is better for teaching obedience because you apply the correction. A prong collar is made for the dog to apply it's own correction when it pulls on the leash.

Learn to use a choke chain. It will also transition to the e-collar well too.

I have seen videos where the choke chain is used for obedience. Do you find it works better than a flat collar?

[Bluesky2012]

Choke chain is better for teaching obedience because you apply the correction. A prong collar is made for the dog to apply it's own correction when it pulls on the leash.

Learn to use a choke chain. It will also transition to the e-collar well too.

I have seen videos where the choke chain is used for obedience. Do you find it works better than a flat collar?

You can add a heavier correction with it. If you have a soft dog, you could use either. Same principle.

[MGIII]

Look into this:

http://www.huntsmith.com/product.php?id=11

Read up on it:
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=5

[Pepper]

You’re getting a GSP. If you have a lab, then both will work just fine, but you are getting a GSP. These dogs are meant to run and run and run. So let them run and don’t worry about just walking your dog. It’s not in their genes for a walk. They need to stretch their legs. They are breed for that. My choice later will be a slip cord lead followed by the e-collar. I don’t want to walk my GSP; instead I want my dog to be independent and hunt for me and cover a lot of ground. As I had said earlier, mouth habits, recall and being steady to flush are my most important points I need to show. And as always, trusts in both the dog and me….I leave the OB drills to the folks who compete in that. Just saying… My two cents worth…

[Bluesky2012]

You’re getting a GSP. If you have a lab, then both will work just fine, but you are getting a GSP. These dogs are meant to run and run and run. So let them run and don’t worry about just walking your dog. It’s not in their genes for a walk. They need to stretch their legs. They are breed for that. My choice later will be a slip cord lead followed by the e-collar. I don’t want to walk my GSP; instead I want my dog to be independent and hunt for me and cover a lot of ground. As I had said earlier, mouth habits, recall and being steady to flush are my most important points I need to show. And as always, trusts in both the dog and me….I leave the OB drills to the folks who compete in that. Just saying… My two cents worth…

I disagree. The dog should learn confidence out front first, but a GSP (though many are failing to do it anymore) should be a versatile dog. Mine duck hunts as much as upland hunting. After he learned to do work comfortably out front as an upland dog, we went through an entire retriever program from formal obedience, FF, FTP, T, etc. and he is a solid retriever with strong obedience, same as a lab is trained.

Those OB drills are for hunters. I'd love to see a poorly trained GSP go for an hour boat ride through the marsh, get out and sit on his dog stand for hours, and patiently mark birds as they are shot if you refused to use a choke chain and a solid obedience program.

I understand most people don't truly use their GSPs for versatile work anymore, and most people on this forum are upland only people, but OP, there is a reason you should do it, even if you just want a well behaved dog.

[mowermandan]

I more or less am of the same mindset I've raised several gps in my younger years and all were versatile dogs I could use on any game bird from dove to geese and choke chain was invaluable the question I put out was choke versus prong I had no dealing with prong when I was young cause as far as I can remember they didn't exsist

[Pepper]

You’re getting a GSP. If you have a lab, then both will work just fine, but you are getting a GSP. These dogs are meant to run and run and run. So let them run and don’t worry about just walking your dog. It’s not in their genes for a walk. They need to stretch their legs. They are breed for that. My choice later will be a slip cord lead followed by the e-collar. I don’t want to walk my GSP; instead I want my dog to be independent and hunt for me and cover a lot of ground. As I had said earlier, mouth habits, recall and being steady to flush are my most important points I need to show. And as always, trusts in both the dog and me….I leave the OB drills to the folks who compete in that. Just saying… My two cents worth…

I disagree. The dog should learn confidence out front first, but a GSP (though many are failing to do it anymore) should be a versatile dog. Mine duck hunts as much as upland hunting. After he learned to do work comfortably out front as an upland dog, we went through an entire retriever program from formal obedience, FF, FTP, T, etc. and he is a solid retriever with strong obedience, same as a lab is trained.

Those OB drills are for hunters. I'd love to see a poorly trained GSP go for an hour boat ride through the marsh, get out and sit on his dog stand for hours, and patiently mark birds as they are shot if you refused to use a choke chain and a solid obedience program.

I understand most people don't truly use their GSPs for versatile work anymore, and most people on this forum are upland only people, but OP, there is a reason you should do it, even if you just want a well behaved dog.

You made some good points and your right about the folks not wanting to have a GSP for a versatile dog. My GSP will be only for upland and my Labs will do the waterfowl thing. Their coat and second eyelid are best suited for that.
Back to the OP...If you have to choose between the two, then the choke collar would be my choice for OB training, but I would though get as much information as you can on a GSP. These dogs are challenging and have a mind, so to speak, of their own. We want them to be independent to some degree. I am learning this on this breed and on this site.
My two cents worth.

[Bluesky2012]

You’re getting a GSP. If you have a lab, then both will work just fine, but you are getting a GSP. These dogs are meant to run and run and run. So let them run and don’t worry about just walking your dog. It’s not in their genes for a walk. They need to stretch their legs. They are breed for that. My choice later will be a slip cord lead followed by the e-collar. I don’t want to walk my GSP; instead I want my dog to be independent and hunt for me and cover a lot of ground. As I had said earlier, mouth habits, recall and being steady to flush are my most important points I need to show. And as always, trusts in both the dog and me….I leave the OB drills to the folks who compete in that. Just saying… My two cents worth…

I disagree. The dog should learn confidence out front first, but a GSP (though many are failing to do it anymore) should be a versatile dog. Mine duck hunts as much as upland hunting. After he learned to do work comfortably out front as an upland dog, we went through an entire retriever program from formal obedience, FF, FTP, T, etc. and he is a solid retriever with strong obedience, same as a lab is trained.

Those OB drills are for hunters. I'd love to see a poorly trained GSP go for an hour boat ride through the marsh, get out and sit on his dog stand for hours, and patiently mark birds as they are shot if you refused to use a choke chain and a solid obedience program.

I understand most people don't truly use their GSPs for versatile work anymore, and most people on this forum are upland only people, but OP, there is a reason you should do it, even if you just want a well behaved dog.

You made some good points and your right about the folks not wanting to have a GSP for a versatile dog. My GSP will be only for upland and my Labs will do the waterfowl thing. Their coat and second eyelid are best suited for that.
Back to the OP...If you have to choose between the two, then the choke collar would be my choice for OB training, but I would though get as much information as you can on a GSP. These dogs are challenging and have a mind, so to speak, of their own. We want them to be independent to some degree.
My two cents worth.

I agree with that. I have a GSP and lab. Both duck hunt but the GSP is my primary upland dog. For a GSP I will say make sure you build the upland game first. Let it get comfortable out front before you work to reel it in. They can do a lot, but they are not labs. A bit more finesse is required with the repetitive nature of retriever work and OB drills.

[ezzy333]

I don't like a choke chain on and dog for training. they are too severe on the throat area and also should never be left on a dog. The wider prong collar with the dull spikes hitting the neck can be over used but I sure like it better than the narrow chain. I admit most of the training I do is with their regular collar but the pronged collar is nearby if needed. The choke chains have all been discarded for many years. And of course I have the long check cords that we call e-collars.

Ezzy

[Pepper]

I don't like a choke chain on and dog for training. they are too severe on the throat area and also should never be left on a dog. The wider prong collar with the dull spikes hitting the neck can be over used but I sure like it better than the narrow chain. I admit most of the training I do is with their regular collar but the pronged collar is nearby if needed. The choke chains have all been discarded for many years. And of course I have the long check cords that we call e-collars.

Ezzy

The idea is to changed the behavior. A simple jerk not yank, is all that is needed. Soon they will be looking to you on your moves. Just like a momentary nick on the e-collar. Retrievers folks who know what they are doing, use the choke chain. Honest.

[Spy Car]

Choke chains are much more likely to damage a dog's trachea and esophagus. They are really very poor choice.

Bill

[ezzy333]

I don't like a choke chain on and dog for training. they are too severe on the throat area and also should never be left on a dog. The wider prong collar with the dull spikes hitting the neck can be over used but I sure like it better than the narrow chain. I admit most of the training I do is with their regular collar but the pronged collar is nearby if needed. The choke chains have all been discarded for many years. And of course I have the long check cords that we call e-collars.

Ezzy

The idea is to changed the behavior. A simple jerk not yank, is all that is needed. Soon they will be looking to you on your moves. Just like a momentary nick on the e-collar. Retrievers folks who know what they are doing, use the choke chain. Honest.

I will have to admit that I don't look towards retriever folks as an example of how to train our pointing dogs. And I agree with the simple jerk but I like it a lot better with something besides a narrow chain. I have seen too many dogs that have been injured with them and many times it was the dogs fault and not the trainer.

[RayGubernat]

mowermandan -

There are many ways to get from here to there with a dog. There is no wrong choice of tool if you use them correctly.

I have, at various times with various dogs, used a choke chain, a prong collar, a pinch collar and a wonder lead. They all will work.

The main advantage, in my mind, to a prong or pinch collar over the choke chain is that they have a hard limit to how much pressure those tools can put on the dog. They have a stop. There is no such stop on a choke collar.

So, yes, you need to use some care when employing a choker collar. But, with the appropriate care, for each individual tool, they will all get you where you need to be with your dog.

RayG

[EvanG]

mowermandan -

There are many ways to get from here to there with a dog. There is no wrong choice of tool if you use them correctly.

I have, at various times with various dogs, used a choke chain, a prong collar, a pinch collar and a wonder lead. They all will work.

The main advantage, in my mind, to a prong or pinch collar over the choke chain is that they have a hard limit to how much pressure those tools can put on the dog. They have a stop. There is no such stop on a choke collar.

So, yes, you need to use some care when employing a choker collar. But, with the appropriate care, for each individual tool, they will all get you where you need to be with your dog.

RayG

I agree with this. Make sure your prong collar is carefully fit to the particular dog. I have never personally injured a dog with a choker, and many have dealt with it quite well. But the prong provides what you want one to provide with less risk.

EvanG

[Pepper]

mowermandan -

There are many ways to get from here to there with a dog. There is no wrong choice of tool if you use them correctly.

I have, at various times with various dogs, used a choke chain, a prong collar, a pinch collar and a wonder lead. They all will work.

The main advantage, in my mind, to a prong or pinch collar over the choke chain is that they have a hard limit to how much pressure those tools can put on the dog. They have a stop. There is no such stop on a choke collar.

So, yes, you need to use some care when employing a choker collar. But, with the appropriate care, for each individual tool, they will all get you where you need to be with your dog.

RayG

I agree with you. They are tools and when used correctly will get you where you need in changing the behavior in the dog.
Many years ago I post on a very popular forum(Gun dog forum section) about pinch collars. I stated that they are like having power steering, if fitted properly.
Lastly...For the record...I am here at this forum to learn about the breed I have, otherwise, I would be at RTF giving advice to "retriever folks to be" who need it.

[Spy Car]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

[birddogger]

I don't like a choke chain on and dog for training. they are too severe on the throat area and also should never be left on a dog. The wider prong collar with the dull spikes hitting the neck can be over used but I sure like it better than the narrow chain. I admit most of the training I do is with their regular collar but the pronged collar is nearby if needed. The choke chains have all been discarded for many years. And of course I have the long check cords that we call e-collars.

Ezzy

Exact same thing here.

Charlie

[Sharon]

Never owned a choke or prong collar. 2 out of 3 heel easily.

[Pepper]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

I am shaking my head...Then most people need to take up basket weaving instead. And think, once they have an e-collar in their hands and decide.....Your statements are false big time. You haven't been in this game very long have you? The ping collar is right behind the ears, not the choke collar. Folks reading this...Please take heed.
Are you and anti?

[ezzy333]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

I am shaking my head...Then most people need to take up basket weaving instead. And think, once they have an e-collar in their hands and decide.....Your statements are false big time. You haven't been in this game very long have you? The ping collar is right behind the ears, not the choke collar. Folks reading this...Please take heed.

Are you and anti?

Pepper. he absolutely right about where the chain or most any other type collar should placed when training. And I have been in the game longer than you so don't ask.

[Spy Car]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

I am shaking my head...Then most people need to take up basket weaving instead. And think, once they have an e-collar in their hands and decide.....Your statements are false big time. You haven't been in this game very long have you? The ping collar is right behind the ears, not the choke collar. Folks reading this...Please take heed.
Are you and anti?

Sorry, but you are just proving the point that most people have no idea how to use a choke chain properly. Placing it around the windpipe causes damage to the trachea and esophagus. This has been demonstrated beyond doubt for decades.

Hardly new to gundogs my friend. I was born during the Eisenhower Administration and have had gundogs most of my life. I am anti. Anti stupidity. Ones canine hunting partner deserves better than being damaged trough the use of bad tools (especially when used improperly). Unfortunately you are spreading false information.

Bill

[Sharon]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

I am shaking my head...Then most people need to take up basket weaving instead. And think, once they have an e-collar in their hands and decide.....Your statements are false big time. You haven't been in this game very long have you? The ping collar is right behind the ears, not the choke collar. Folks reading this...Please take heed.
Are you and anti?

It's the guy's 6th post and he's right. Just make your point without attacking someone verbally.

Welcome spycar .

[Spy Car]

There is a big difference between the inherent dangers of these two tools.

Prong collars can be abused, but when used correctly they are highly effective and minimize risks to the dog's throat.

Choke chains on the other hand are crazy-dangerous. Most dogs on whom they are used show damage to their esophagus and trachea. This have been proved conclusively time and again though post-mortum autopsies on dogs in scientific studies. Most people don't even know how to properly fit a choke collar (if they are used), which is right behind the ears). But truth is they are too darn risky. Why chance doing permanent damage to a dog when there is a better tool available?

Bill

I am shaking my head...Then most people need to take up basket weaving instead. And think, once they have an e-collar in their hands and decide.....Your statements are false big time. You haven't been in this game very long have you? The ping collar is right behind the ears, not the choke collar. Folks reading this...Please take heed.
Are you and anti?

It's the guy's 6th post and he's right. Just make your point without attacking someone verbally.

Welcome spycar .

Thank you Sharon. I've been enjoying reading your back-posts while in "lurking" mode. I appreciate the welcome.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Bill

[Bluesky2012]

Everyone keeps referring to these "statistics" but we should all take a step back and breakdown the statistics. The majority of gun dog owners and trainers know substantially more about how to use a choke chain as compared to the average how who uses one to slow their sled dog from dragging them around on a walk, or people who leave one on their Pitt bull as they chain it in their yard.

From there, gun dogs use it for formal obedience, and for pointers, whoa work. After that most go to an e-collar and a choke chain is seldom used for major corrections again.

Everyone is blowing it out of proportion. If you properly do formal obedience, it is completed in about a month with 2xday sessions at 6-8 months of age. To think that the "damage" caused during that time period is even close to the amount of damage that could be caused during years of prolonged improper use is absurd. I highly doubt that any of these statistics account for many, if any, properly trained gun dogs. More likely than not these statistics are formulated by the ASPCA or some like group from random deceased dogs.

[ezzy333]

Everyone keeps referring to these "statistics" but we should all take a step back and breakdown the statistics. The majority of gun dog owners and trainers know substantially more about how to use a choke chain as compared to the average how who uses one to slow their sled dog from dragging them around on a walk, or people who leave one on their Pitt bull as they chain it in their yard.

From there, gun dogs use it for formal obedience, and for pointers, whoa work. After that most go to an e-collar and a choke chain is seldom used for major corrections again.

Everyone is blowing it out of proportion. If you properly do formal obedience, it is completed in about a month with 2xday sessions at 6-8 months of age. To think that the "damage" caused during that time period is even close to the amount of damage that could be caused during years of prolonged improper use is absurd. I highly doubt that any of these statistics account for many, if any, properly trained gun dogs. More likely than not these statistics are formulated by the ASPCA or some like group from random deceased dogs.

My statistic came from vets as well as owners who have had the problem. I think you will find most damage comes from a one time occurrence and how long it was used may bot be a factor other than just having more than one chance to jerk the dog or even just having a dog pulling on it hard. But since none of us have any actual statistics we may never know.

[Spy Car]

Everyone keeps referring to these "statistics" but we should all take a step back and breakdown the statistics. The majority of gun dog owners and trainers know substantially more about how to use a choke chain as compared to the average how who uses one to slow their sled dog from dragging them around on a walk, or people who leave one on their Pitt bull as they chain it in their yard.

From there, gun dogs use it for formal obedience, and for pointers, whoa work. After that most go to an e-collar and a choke chain is seldom used for major corrections again.

Everyone is blowing it out of proportion. If you properly do formal obedience, it is completed in about a month with 2xday sessions at 6-8 months of age. To think that the "damage" caused during that time period is even close to the amount of damage that could be caused during years of prolonged improper use is absurd. I highly doubt that any of these statistics account for many, if any, properly trained gun dogs. More likely than not these statistics are formulated by the ASPCA or some like group from random deceased dogs.

My statistic came from vets as well as owners who have had the problem. I think you will find most damage comes from a one time occurrence and how long it was used may bot be a factor other than just having more than one chance to jerk the dog or even just having a dog pulling on it hard. But since none of us have any actual statistics we may never know.

You're right Ezzy. It ought to be "common sense" that jerking a choke chain around a dogs neck can (will) cause traumatic injury. One time can do it. But I guess your sig line is correct, common sense isn't that common.

Obedience trainers (as you know) dropped using choke chains decades ago when it became manifestly clear they are very dangerous. It is pretty a obvious conclusion when one takes a moment to think about the mechanics of a chain being yanked on a windpipe. What the heck do people think will happen?

A prong collar Is every bit as effective (or more so) and greatly reduces the risk to the dog.

Hard to believe we're having this debate in the 21st Century.

Bill

[Bluesky2012]

No, You both are sittin on a high horse claiming a "fact" based on no statistics. Every article I just read continues to fall under the same issues that I just presented as to why their statistics are not relevant. Every article I've read continues to talk about choke chains causing damage from dogs constantly pulling, keep talking about how these owners continually use them, and also use statistics based off the general population versus professionally trained working dogs or gun dogs. Only one article mentioned the fact that they did not survey dogs after they quit using them or quit consistently being used on the dog.

No article addresses the benefits of proper short term use of the collar, and addresses whether any of the possible problems from it are only short term, and completely resolve themself after formal obedience is complete.

All articles and your "veterinary sources" continue to be driven based off vague results from the general public. Let's not forget these are the same vets that are also advocating against e-collars these days even though most have never seen or properly used one. A vet is a health professional not a gun dog trainer. Very few know anything about proper training, and they often only see bad cases of misused products.

It's fine if you chose not to use a choke chain, but your argument is weak at best, and making bold and exaggerated statements like you made are just absurd. Please provide a relevant statistic that cannot be debunked by the shortfalls I've suggested and then well talk. Every statistic that I've found so far clearly shows manipulation or omission to fit their agenda.

FYI the majority of these same articles have also advocated prong collars not to be used as well. If it is such a clear argument like you assume it is, why do I find so much dissection against prong collars too then?

[RayGubernat]

Gyuys -

I will go back to what I said originally, which is ANY of these tools will do the job humanely, quickly and with a minimal possibility of injury to the dog...IF they are used correctly.

They key is in the correct use of a tool...any tool. Let us never forget that.

I ABSOLUTELY and categorically reject the notion that because some ignorant A**hole does not know how to use some device or tool or machine or whatever... properly... and injures themselves or others that automatically means that EVERYONE should be considered, and treated just the same as that ignorant A**hole.

To maintain that a choke collar is inherently dangerous and therefore should not be used(by anyone at all) is EXACTLY the same as saying that since knives are sharp and do, in fact cut people, they should not be used...by anyone, not even chefs and butchers who are trained in their use.

Never and always are two words that I avoid, because it ALMOST never fails that they ALMOST always seem to get me into trouble.

RayG

[ezzy333]

Ray, though I agree with what you are saying, I find that some of your thoughts about knives might change when they are in someone else's hands much like the damage done by a choke chain might just depend on how the dog acts and not what you are doing with it. I am not saying they can't be used but it is a whole lot smarter to use something that works just as well and is less dangerous. Just common sense to me as I feel no obligation to protect the use of either.

Ezzy

To maintain that a choke collar is inherently dangerous and therefore should not be used(by anyone at all) is EXACTLY the same as saying that since knives are sharp and do, in fact cut people, they should not be used...by anyone, not even chefs and butchers who are trained in their use.

[Sharon]

Anyone ever used a hound collar? Works great for teaching heeling etc to a smaller dog... under 30 pounds.

[Spy Car]

Ray, you are missing the point. Choke chains are inherently dangerous...by design.

In almost every study almost EVERY dog on whom they've been used shows evidence of damage. Similar post-mortums on dogs that were trained with prong collars (which work just as well, if not better) show few (if any) are damaged.

So why in the world choose the inherently dangerous tool over the far (far) safer tool? I makes no sense not to chose the better option.

These used to be used in the Obedience world, by supposed "experts." And you know what? All their dogs had the telltale *cough* that was indicative of damage to the windpipe. One simply CAN NOT wrap a chain around a dogs windpipe and yank and not cause damage. Common sense.

Bill

[birddogger]

For me the bottom line is the prong collar works extremely well with a very light touch and there is not much risk of injuring the dog.

Charlie

[Bluesky2012]

Ray, you are missing the point. Choke chains are inherently dangerous...by design.

In almost every study almost EVERY dog on whom they've been used shows evidence of damage. Similar post-mortums on dogs that were trained with prong collars (which work just as well, if not better) show few (if any) are damaged.

So why in the world choose the inherently dangerous tool over the far (far) safer tool? I makes no sense not to chose the better option.

These used to be used in the Obedience world, by supposed "experts." And you know what? All their dogs had the telltale *cough* that was indicative of damage to the windpipe. One simply CAN NOT wrap a chain around a dogs windpipe and yank and not cause damage. Common sense.

Bill

And again bill, it's very easy to make assumptions like that when you don't cite sources. Show me a study that does not fall into the traps that I mentioned earlier that actually show statistic relevance to gundog training.

Also if you look at my past comments, many studies also say that prong collars are dangerous too.

[EvanG]

For those who may still be allowing themselves to think objectively here, "yes", prong & choke collars can be dangerous. So can a rolled up newspaper. As a pro with over 36 years experience I can tell you this, however. No dog was ever hurt by a choke collar, a prong collar, or an e-collar. Dogs have been hurt by abusive trainers who used those tools abusively. Then and only then. If you can't keep yourself from using training tools abusively, don't train dogs! Sober up, and leave dogs alone!

EvanG

[ezzy333]

Evan, a you should know anytime you have a live dog on the other end of your leash you can not always control the situation. I actually saw a dog hurt it's throat when it jumped at a bird and the trainer had no chance to react. Another one when a trainer was getting the dog ready and had it on the tailgate of the truck when the dog jumped and the leash caught before the pup hit the ground. Maybe weird circumstances but they happen. That is my reason for using common sense and eliminating the possibilities as much as possible. My other reason is I personally have not found a need for one.

Other than that use whatever you want and forget that accidents do happen and a good trainer/owner does whatever is possible to eliminate or at least lessen the chance. I just bought a new van with a camera that shows what is behind you when you put it in reverse. My wife just backed into a car last week. SOLUTIONS DON'T ALWAYS WORK BUT I DON'T THINK I WILL GET RID OF THE CAMERA SINCE I AM SURE IT LESSENS THE POSSIBILITY.

Ezzy

[Spy Car]

Evan, Ezzy is right. An exuberant dog (which I'm assuming most of us have) can suddenly leap when prey-drive overwhelms training. And in that instant a windpipe can be permanently damaged. Think about how a choke chain acts. Think about putting one around your own neck (which isn't that different than a dogs) and what would happen if someone yanked it on your windpipe or if you took off like a shot with someone passively holding on. Just don't actually do it (as the results could be catastrophic to your well-being). It is the same with dogs.

A prong-collar is not free of risk, but it is a massively better design that spreads the pressure points away from the delicate windpipe, and has self-limiting features than a choke chain does not.

One need not be an abusive handler to have a dog injured by a choke chain. These are insanely dangerous and badly designed tools that are inferior to better and safer tools. Why take the risk of almost inevitable injury?

Bill

[Bluesky2012]

These are insanely dangerous and badly designed tools that are inferior to better and safer tools. Why take the risk of almost inevitable injury?

Bill

"in almost every study almost EVERY dog... Shows evidence of damage

Do you listen to yourself when you type these phrases?

First off you have yet to answer or respond to my questions. I wonder why? Do the statistics not fit your assertion? How can you claim something to be so "insanely dangerous" and "inferior" yet it only appears that way in "almost every study" on "almost EVERY dog"? Is it only in statistics that you splice and manipulate for your own argument?

If injury is so inevitable and so insanely dangerous, how come so many users on here say they have never or rarely ever had an issue with one? Does that not for your narrative so you chose to avoid that too, yet still feel confident enough to make such bold and ignorant assumptions?

[Spy Car]

These are insanely dangerous and badly designed tools that are inferior to better and safer tools. Why take the risk of almost inevitable injury?

Bill

"in almost every study almost EVERY dog... Shows evidence of damage

Do you listen to yourself when you type these phrases?

First off you have yet to answer or respond to my questions. I wonder why? Do the statistics not fit your assertion? How can you claim something to be so "insanely dangerous" and "inferior" yet it only appears that way in "almost every study" on "almost EVERY dog"? Is it only in statistics that you splice and manipulate for your own argument?

If injury is so inevitable and so insanely dangerous, how come so many users on here say they have never or rarely ever had an issue with one? Does that not for your narrative so you chose to avoid that too, yet still feel confident enough to make such bold and ignorant assumptions?

You don't seem to be willing to accept the evidence of the numerous scientific studies done around the world, just because some so-called "animal rights" group you (and I) may not favor happens to link to them on their blogs and websites. Disliking PETA (or whatever) does not change the science. To think it does is a logical fallacy.

I've been around dogs long enough not to need a "study" to know how dangerous choke chains are. And I'm hardly alone. They are an obsolete and dangerous tool.

Have you never heard the classic **cough** of a dog that's been given a strong correction with a choke chain? That is the sound of traumatic damage to a windpipe my friends.

Bill

[Bluesky2012]

The first minute of this video sums up this argument. Very few if any empirical evidence has shown the risks of a choke chain properly being used on a gun dog during their obedience training stages, yet member here are arguing that they are insanely dangerous tools with inevitably bad outcomes. Essentially our pets heads will fall off.

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/103840/who-to-blame

Bill, again you have not read what I wrote about WHY their statistics do not readily apply to gundog training. You apparently chose to not need science or proven facts because ""you don't need a study". I'd hate to go see a doctor who uses that methodology. Please read my previous posts and you will see I am using science and statistics for my argument. You are claiming to use science, not actually reading statistics, but then saying (in the same post) you don't need science because it wot change your opinion. Illogical?

[ezzy333]

Interestingly neither of you have shown any scientific studies, my self included, but only one is demanding research and proof. I don't think it is needed since no one is proposing a law. It was offered as a recommendation as well as a warning as to what happens too often.. I would suggest that those of you that want to use a choke chain do but be aware of what can and does happen too often. And for Bluesky's benefit I would doubt if there have been any studies of the use or results of a choke chain on sporting dogs during training and there really doesn't need to be as this is just something everybody needs to know so they can make up their own minds and protect their dogs from the possibility of an injury that could cause permanent damage if they care to.

So lets move on to some other subject so this one can be left open for those that want to post their thoughts and experiences.

Thank you
Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Ray, you are missing the point. Choke chains are inherently dangerous...by design.

In almost every study almost EVERY dog on whom they've been used shows evidence of damage. Similar post-mortums on dogs that were trained with prong collars (which work just as well, if not better) show few (if any) are damaged.

So why in the world choose the inherently dangerous tool over the far (far) safer tool? I makes no sense not to chose the better option.

These used to be used in the Obedience world, by supposed "experts." And you know what? All their dogs had the telltale *cough* that was indicative of damage to the windpipe. One simply CAN NOT wrap a chain around a dogs windpipe and yank and not cause damage. Common sense.

Bill

Bill -

I am most assuredly NOT missing the point. A knife, especially a fixed blade kitchen type slicing knife, is inherently a VERY dangerous tool and yet, tens of thousands of folks use them every single day, including myself... without incident. Firearms are inherently dangerous...they are designed to kill stuff. Yet thousands of folks discharge tens of thousands of rounds an nobody gets hurt. In point of fact, firearms ACCIDENTS are VERY far down on the list as far as causes of deaths or injury in the USA. Automobiles are, or can be lightly armored vehicles, capable of killing and maiming people by the score. Semi's are even bigger, heavier and more dangerous. Yet millions of folks drive cars thousands of miles every year without incident and tens of thousands of over the road truck drivers log millions of miles each year in complete safety.

I have not yet seen any scientific evidence that indicates proper use of a choke collar for training is harmful to a dog. If you have such a study, I would be happy to read it and admit that I was wrong.

Knives can make you bleed if you screw up, guns can punch holes in your body and cars and trucks can smash you to bits. We know that, which is why it behooves the user to know what they are doing and use the tool properly and safely.

I have used a choke collar on several dogs... for training. NEVER had any sort of problem. If I needed to... I would use one again... without the slightest hesitation.

It ain't the tool...it is the user. In automobiles it is the nut behind the wheel. The only truly completely safe tool is one that does nothing.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

Evan, a you should know anytime you have a live dog on the other end of your leash you can not always control the situation. I actually saw a dog hurt it's throat when it jumped at a bird and the trainer had no chance to react. Another one when a trainer was getting the dog ready and had it on the tailgate of the truck when the dog jumped and the leash caught before the pup hit the ground. Maybe weird circumstances but they happen. That is my reason for using common sense and eliminating the possibilities as much as possible. My other reason is I personally have not found a need for one.

Other than that use whatever you want and forget that accidents do happen and a good trainer/owner does whatever is possible to eliminate or at least lessen the chance. I just bought a new van with a camera that shows what is behind you when you put it in reverse. My wife just backed into a car last week. SOLUTIONS DON'T ALWAYS WORK BUT I DON'T THINK I WILL GET RID OF THE CAMERA SINCE I AM SURE IT LESSENS THE POSSIBILITY.

Ezzy

Ezzy -

Your two scenarios effectively prove my point about it being the user, not the tool.

In the first instance it is irresponsible to have a leash attached to a choke collar in the field...pretty much at any time. It is similarly irresponsible to have a leash attached to a choler collar when the dog is on the tailgate of a truck, because inevitably the dog will jump down. Both are user error situations. The only time one should hook a lead to ANYTHING OTHER THAN a flat collar is when the dog has already established point and is standing. If you suspect that the dog might lunge after the bird when it flushes...a choker collar is not the correct tool to use. Neither is a prong or pinch collar, IMO.

Now, if someone were to have said that using a choker collar on dogs IN THE FIELD is dangerous and even just having a choker collar on a dog in the field should be avoided...I would have agreed with that.

The best use of a choker collar(IMO) is in a controlled training environment. I personally prefer a prong collar for the yardwork as well as transitioning to the field work, because I can get done what I want to get done with less pressure and with less repetitions. However, that does not mean that, in some situations, with some dogs, the choker collar can be invaluable.

If a pointing dog does not want to stand ... a properly sized choker attached to an overhead arm on a bench can really get the "point" across. When the dog hops off the bench and doesn't quite make it all the way to the ground because the rope, chain or bungee(better) is set up to allow only the dog's back feet to be on the ground, the pressure a choker collar can put on the dog in this kind of setup really gets the dog's attention. It is not at all uncommon, in my experience, for a dog that simply will not stand still...to undergo ONE session on the bench and after "hanging around" for a half minute or so, on its back feet, to stand there like a Marine major on a parade ground the very next time it is put up on the bench...and pretty much every time after that. Behavior modified with one correction. Done and done. Move on to the next lesson.

MUCH less pressure overall, I think. But that is just me.

RayG

[Spy Car]

Ray, to be clear, the training method you advocate is to hang a dog from its throat using a choke chain, so only its back paws can hit the ground? And to leave them like that for a half-a-minute?

Is that right???

Bill

[ezzy333]

Ray, you just proved my point with some excellent examples. Same as my examples but different location.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Ray, to be clear, the training method you advocate is to hang a dog from its throat using a choke chain, so only its back paws can hit the ground? And to leave them like that for a half-a-minute?

Is that right???

Bill

Bill - The short answer is: YUP

Here is a slightly more detailed version.
You measure the length of the rope chain or bungee so that the dog is able to stand on its hind legs(not sit) but unable to put its front paws on the ground. THe physical size of the dog also needs to be considered of course. Not exactly "hanging by its throat", but it is obvious to me that they really, really do not like the outcome of their decision to jump off the bench because they seldom make that same decision twice. And yes, they are left helpless for about thirty seconds which is sufficient time for: 1) the error of their decision to sink into even the thickest of skulls... and: 2) the sure and certain knowledge that I and I alone are their savior because I got them out of a situation where they were helpless.

I prefer to use a flat collar for this, but if that does not work I choose a choke collar over a prong or pinch collar because it cannot dig in like either of those can.

Obviously, when you do this, including when using a flat collar, you are right there, watching everything, with your hand on the quick release loop or snap, ...just in case.... I have never had a dog freak out while doing this, but I am aware that it could happen.

Failure to comply has to have negative consequences at some point in the training.

RayG