transition bumper-dove-duck

[magspa]

did a lot of retriever training with my gsp over the summer. Shes doing really well with the bumper - marks, blinds, and water. Took her dove hunting and it did not carry over to the dove which i suspected. So i froze a few. Worked her a few times with them and she did great after a few sessions. Today i tried with a frozen duck and it was like starting over completely. To the point where she where she would avoid it. Im not sure what it is, maybe the size/weight of the duck (hen redhead) ? Any suggestions? Im so close to having a awesome pointer that will also hunt waterfowl.

[Bluesky2012]

You should train with birds (all species you plan to hunt) as part of your training plan, beginning with early socialization. Just start like it's a new concept with praise, then begin to enforce results that you trained for in force fetch. You simply have to use birds to expect the dog to understand what to do with birds. A bumper isn't a bird.

Did you use birds and ducks (frozen, freshly dead, and alive) during force fetch? If you didn't, how can you expect and enforce a result you haven't trained for?

I'd just suggest incorporating them more frequently. Dogs don't generalize well. When you run marks, use ducks instead of bumpers. Go run a walking single, and whomever is throwing as the bird boy, have them first throw the bumper, then send the dog. Repeat the same drill, but use a bird this time.

Main thing is, you can't have a bird dog without birds.

[magspa]

The transition to dove went real well- just a couple short sessions..but with the duck her whole demener is differnent.

[Bluesky2012]

The transition to dove went real well- just a couple short sessions..but with the duck her whole demener is differnent.

Pull a dusk flight feathers, and tape it's feet closed so the webbing isn't spread. Throw the live duck into a pond then send the dog. You'll see a big difference.

[DonF]

The transition to dove went real well- just a couple short sessions..but with the duck her whole demener is differnent.

Have you ever ate a duck? Then you'd understand. Most the people I know of make pepperoni out of them then give it away as Christmas presents! Friend of mine years ago had the only good rescipie for them. Place the duck on a Mesquite board. stuff it with horse manure and bake at 425* for one hour. when done remove the duck and take the manure out. Throw away the duck and eat the board! lol

actually, you do need to go through the steps forcing. I used to use a wooden dowel held off the ground with wood plate's on the ends. Helped the dog pick it up. Next step, start all over, use a frozen bird. Goes faster than the first time. Then I liked to take the dog out on the ground with the frozen bird. Then back in and a fresh killed bird. By the time you get there, it goes pretty fast.

[magspa]

Pull a dusk flight feathers, and tape it's feet closed so the webbing isn't spread. Throw the live duck into a pond then send the dog. You'll see a big difference.[/quote]

Jump shot a duck while quail hunting this morning. Duck was still alive when hit the water. She ran out after it excited but did not pick it up. On the bright side she had a few good quail retrieves.

LOL yes i have ate duck. Ok ill go through hold, ear pinch thoroughly with duck and try that dowel method.

[Bluesky2012]

If the natural desire won't come out from cripples, then FF will be your next best bet (though I still FF regardless because of the added benefits). Don't just stop at FF though. Work all the way through collar fetch, walking fetch, etc then start using walking singles with both bumpers and ducks intermixed. FF gave you the tool to make the dog pick up the bird after you properly FF, now apply it in training.

[Bluesky2012]

The transition to dove went real well- just a couple short sessions..but with the duck her whole demener is differnent.

Have you ever ate a duck? Then you'd understand. Most the people I know of make pepperoni out of them then give it away as Christmas presents! Friend of mine years ago had the only good rescipie for them. Place the duck on a Mesquite board. stuff it with horse manure and bake at 425* for one hour. when done remove the duck and take the manure out. Throw away the duck and eat the board! lol

actually, you do need to go through the steps forcing. I used to use a wooden dowel held off the ground with wood plate's on the ends. Helped the dog pick it up. Next step, start all over, use a frozen bird. Goes faster than the first time. Then I liked to take the dog out on the ground with the frozen bird. Then back in and a fresh killed bird. By the time you get there, it goes pretty fast.

Man you're crazy. This time of year I'm eating duck 3-4 days a week... Soak the breast in buttermilk for a few days before you cook em and it'll fix it up.

[magspa]

The buttermilk does help. I also like simple brine like water salt, brown or regular sugar to help draw the blood out. Then grill, country fry, stir fry, etc..
After the hunt she did hold well, walking hold, fetch from hand with ear pinch, and "here" while holding. But will not pick up off the ground. Ill give it a break throughout the week and get back at it this weekend. She'll come around.

[Scott Linden]

Try holding a block of ice in your mouth for a while. That's what you're asking a dog when you use frozen birds. I would imagine a force-broke dog might do it for fear of punishment, but not very likely if he had a vote in the matter. I wonder how much more success you might have if you thawed that duck first?

[magspa]

my last post was talking about a fresh duck. Good point though, i usually try to thaw for at least a few hours.

[Swampbilly]

did a lot of retriever training with my gsp over the summer. Shes doing really well with the buma while.arks, blinds, and water. Took her dove hunting and it did not carry over to the dove which i suspected. So i froze a few. Worked her a few times with them and she did great after a few sessions. Today i tried with a frozen duck and it was like starting over completely. To the point where she where she would avoid it. Im not sure what it is, maybe the size/weight of the duck (hen redhead) ? Any suggestions? Im so close to having a awesome pointer that will also hunt waterfowl.

Tell how many times in one session you tossed a bird for the dog before the dog began "avoiding" the bird.

Stop using frozen birds. Get yourself some live pigeons, clip winged, and keep birds in the dogs' training diet.
Use 'em sparingly.
Some folks have a different problem- dog won't pic up bumpers because birds were used exclusively for marks for quite some time. If you've more training to do (with bumpers), you can back yourself in a corner.

Good idea to strike a good balance between birds and bumpers. You'll more than likely need to jump start your dog with live birds and get some prey drive going.

[magspa]

sessions have been about 10-15mins..shes been doing fine with pigeon sized birds (dove and quail), marks, blinds and enthusiastic. But totally different with duck.

[Bluesky2012]

If it refuses to pick up the duck, walk out there, grab the heck out of that ear, or use the e-collar depending on which works best with your dog, and command fetch. Let the dog squirm or avoid it but don't let the pressure go, and then force the dogs head down to the bird.

Right now your dog knows it can get away with not picking up a duck at distance but not at close range. Start close, and work to increase distances slowly. You force fetched, so now use the tools you gained from force fetch.

Most people think if you Ff-ed a dog, it all of a sudden becomes a retriever. False. Now you just have the tools to make it a retriever. Use the dang ear pinch or collar. The dog has got to know that it is never acceptable again to not pick up the bird. I'd wager your just being too soft so the dog just isn't "inclined" to pick it up when it's away from you. It knows it can get away from it. Go watch a retriever pro grab a dogs ear and force it to pick up a bird if it refuses. It's got some power.

[Swampbilly]

Careful using a lot of pressure with birds and marks, both ear pinch and collar pressure.
If your dogs' not Pressure Conditioned properly, ( and Collar Conditioned), leave pressure alone.

[Bluesky2012]

Careful using a lot of pressure with birds and marks, both ear pinch and collar pressure.
If your dogs' not Pressure Conditioned properly, ( and Collar Conditioned), leave pressure alone.

Your fear is that the dog would associate the pressure with the bird. The dog has already been CCed and FFed, so it knows the expectation and is just refusing. He will differentiate the reason for the pressure. What's the worst that happens he won't pick up a duck?

Watch Joyce Aycock and Danny farmer force fetch dogs onto birds. LOTS of pressure with collar, ear, heeling stick, etc.

[Swampbilly]

Careful using a lot of pressure with birds and marks, both ear pinch and collar pressure.
If your dogs' not Pressure Conditioned properly, ( and Collar Conditioned), leave pressure alone.

Your fear is that the dog would associate the pressure with the bird. The dog has already been CCed and FFed, so it knows the expectation and is just refusing. He will differentiate the reason for the pressure. What's the worst that happens he won't pick up a duck?

Watch Joyce Aycock and Danny farmer force fetch dogs onto birds. LOTS of pressure with collar, ear, heeling stick, etc.

Oh ok gotcha' 'Blue, didn't know the dog has been thoroughly "FF'd".
So this dog has been properly Pressure Conditioned , (FF'd) and won't pick up an object- birds
Don't need to watch Danny and co., , have used birds myself in FF.

If you "have" to use more pressure, (LOTS, with HEELING Stick, Collar Pressure, Ear Pinch, etc.,), than used in FF' and Collar Conditioning combined to "motivate" the dog to pick up an object afterwards, then the dog more than likely wasn't properly FF'd to begin with.


The worse that can happen(?)-

[Swampbilly]

Lost internet connection,..grrr
The worst that can happen is souring the dog on retrieving in general, and equally important-
on birds.
.
Didn't see in this thread anywhere that the dog has been Pressure Conditioned or CC'd, perhaps I missed the boat on that.
Don't believe Danny and co. Would use LOTS of pressure on a dog that doesn't understand it.

[DonF]

Try holding a block of ice in your mouth for a while. That's what you're asking a dog when you use frozen birds. I would imagine a force-broke dog might do it for fear of punishment, but not very likely if he had a vote in the matter. I wonder how much more success you might have if you thawed that duck first?

That's right Scott but the frozen bird used first before the fresh killed, teach's the dog not to chomp down on the bird. Letting the bird thaw until the neck get's rubbery, also take's the cold out of the feather's and loosen's them up a bit. You need the dog to be use to feather's and not chomping down. I have heard people suggest wrapping the bird in barb wire to keep the dog from chomping and putting nails through the bird. Now that can be very stupid, imagine the dog chomping down on either one! I' would stick to the frozen bird.

[Swampbilly]

Try holding a block of ice in your mouth for a while. That's what you're asking a dog when you use frozen birds. I would imagine a force-broke dog might do it for fear of punishment, but not very likely if he had a vote in the matter. I wonder how much more success you might have if you thawed that duck first?

That's right Scott but the frozen bird used first before the fresh killed, teach's the dog not to chomp down on the bird. Letting the bird thaw until the neck get's rubbery, also take's the cold out of the feather's and loosen's them up a bit. You need the dog to be use to feather's and not chomping down. I have heard people suggest wrapping the bird in barb wire to keep the dog from chomping and putting nails through the bird. Now that can be very stupid, imagine the dog chomping down on either one! I' would stick to the frozen bird.

Hear 'ya Don
And going even further than using frozen birds as an apparent fix for not-so-good mouthing habits, I'd submit that teaching some proper mouthing habits, i.e.,.HOLDING from the git go would be an even better fundamental start.

[magspa]

She is force fetched (never force fetched with birds though) . I went through hold, walking hold, ear pinch - reaching - to ground - walking fetch, force to pile. She loves retrieving from water. Didnt need to FF with dove and quail, the FF with bumper carried over well to those birds, but ive hunted her on quail since a pup. she is collar conditioned. I am obviously not a "trainer" so the ff and other training may have some loose ends.

[Swampbilly]

She is force fetched (never force fetched with birds though went through hold, walking hold, ear pinch - reaching - to ground - walking fetch, force to pile. She loves retrieving from water. Didnt need to FF with dove and quail, the FF with bumper carried over well to those birds, but ive hunted her on quail since a pup. she is collar conditioned. I am obviously not a "trainer" so the ff and other training may have some loose ends.

Just so you know-
'Ya don't have to force on birds to Pressure Condition. In other words-
You don't have to use every "object" on the planet you may ask your dog to pick up in it's retreiving life in order to pick it up, nor would you " have" to use every species of birds in order for the dog to be "FF'd" to that particular bird..
What 'ole Bluesky mentioned makes more sense now-
But only for a dog that understands pressure and what it means.
A properly FF'd dog afterwards has a compulsion to----> Fetch when commanded to.

Keep in mind that by 6mos lots, (lots) of pups have long been exposed to birds. So birds after FF is nothing "new" to the pup/dog.
Don't use rock- solid hard frozen birds in training if that's what you're doing.

Before you start using "a lot" of pressure (or any for that matter), on birds I would ask myself a few questions:
How did FF' go during the process (?)
Did you breeze through it.
Did it take a long time.
Did your dog pick up objects out of fear, or because it understood pressure and what it means.(There's a big difference)
And did you complete each component of the process before moving on to the next.
Was it "the dog" that was ready to move on, was it you that was, or did you move on because both objective and goal of each part of the process was achieved.

Question-
just curious
Did you Collar Fetch by chance(?)
And just what does "avoiding" the frozen duck actually mean (?)