2nd Year Madness?

[41magsnub]

2.5 yo GWP named Maddie. I think she finally hit the terrible twos. She reverted to trying to counter surf and seems to be under the impression she doesn't need me to get birds. Last 3 times out she was waiting way too long to point. The first two it was super windy so I gave her those thinking she was just learning how to hunt in the wind, the last one it wasn't windy and I caught her working all the way into a bird and trying to catch it.

Then when I whoa'd her, she was creeping. The one bird we shot was a preserve rooster that held so tight I had to pick it up and toss it in the air. Maddie pointed that bird from 2' away and re-positioned twice so it was not a good point, the bird should not have held.

A month ago she was doing none of those things.

Time to go back to basics.

This is fairly normal and somewhat expected right?

[Bluesky2012]

Your dog is not experiencing the "terrible twos" because that is a human issue not a dog issue. Your dog is experiencing "lack of discipline" aka you're letting your dog get away with crap and not enforcing behavior year round, but rather expecting the dog to perform well in the field despite not having reinforced any issues. A 2 year old dog is a mature adult. Claiming "terrible twos" is just you trying to feel better about the dogs issues. Start reinforcing your commands all the time and the problem will resolve itself.

[41magsnub]

Your dog is not experiencing the "terrible twos" because that is a human issue not a dog issue. Your dog is experiencing "lack of discipline" aka you're letting your dog get away with crap and not enforcing behavior year round, but rather expecting the dog to perform well in the field despite not having reinforced any issues. A 2 year old dog is a mature adult. Claiming "terrible twos" is just you trying to feel better about the dogs issues. Start reinforcing your commands all the time and the problem will resolve itself.

Thanks for the response, you may be partially right. It was a question based on some Internet research and a book I read when I first got the dog.

However, you should really tone down the attitude.

[ezzy333]

It has been my experience that all pups seem to have to have a bad year. The ones that are good their first year will have the bad second year. the one that are wild as pups and are impossible as yearlings will have it figured out by the second year. Call it what you want but most have to go through it. Not anything to worry about but they just need to push authority to see what the limits are much like us or our kids. Just go back and re-establish the limits and you and your pup will be fine.

[Sharon]

Exactly. Well said.

[DonF]

I never hunt a dog it's first year just to go around those two's. As a pup, even with a very secure one, they get a lot bolder the second year as they mature. I wait on that and do mostly training the first year and a half. Everything is training and you'll find with most dog's even if you wait on them, they will go through that stage. But better to deal with it right now in a training field rather on a hunting trip. Problem on the hunting trip is you've waited all year for hunting and you believe your pup is ready. So you go to work shooting birds for it. At some point and you'll probably not notice it, being preoccupied whit flushing and shooting, the young dog grows mentally a bit more and takes a few small liberty's you don't notice or for the sake of shooting the bird, let it pass figuring you'll work on it off season. If you have not really done the job in the off season enough, the oop's of last year are going to come rolling back but this time with a young adult that's pretty sure he can do thing's his own way. Young dog on a game preserve shooting released birds is a problem. They do what your's did and they are backing up. Your right, they think they can either get a lot closer or catch the bird and this time their experience tell's them it's true. pen raised bird's in my opinion require a dog farther along than it's first year. What a wild bird won't allow, the pen raised bird will. And when you've paid up to $25 per pheasant and get in the situation you described, it's pretty hard not to grab the bird and throw it to shoot rather than back the dog up and work on the problem and risk losing an expensive training bird. A lot of people thing the way to train is on wild birds. A real problem with wild birds is they won't allow what a pen bird will. Take that wild bird dog and hunt a bunch on released birds and you might find the the pen bird is unteaching your dog. Where as if you train on pen birds, I use pigeon's, and finish out on wild birds, the wild bird will finish your dog a bit better with what it won't allow and the dog already knows what you expect on a pen bird. Before the second year is when the attitude start's and it's either wait on it and train through it or hunt the first year and get to it later, then the pup will astound you with all it seem's to have forgotten.

[Sharon]

You're on a roll . That's the voice of experience there. Thanks.

[will-kelly]

In year one I Whoa'd around birds. I experienced the same situation you described.

I was lost. I had watched every DVD(I still have most of them) and read most books about how to train a pointer. Out of desperation I sent an email to Ed Bailey thinking that I had ruined my dog. We spoke by phone and we corresponded in a series of emails. After about 2 weeks his advice was simple. Shut Up around birds. Let the dog work it out. Let the instinct take over. His only advice for training a command was a down/drop command for safety because I was going to let the dog work it out on her own.

His theory was that the dog is creeping or moving under pressure because of the verbal chaos. Instead of acting on instinct the dog is operating under a ton of human pressure and most dogs can't handle this.

I took it one step further and purchased "Training With Mo". The best $25 I spent on dog training ever. The West method changed me entirely and I took a new direction. Part of the transition was me taking the pressure off of the entire situation, myself and the dog included.

Just two days ago myself and 3 hunters spent 10 minutes looking for my dog in tall grass while guiding a hunt because I knew she was on point somewhere.

Get the book and read it before you make a decision to move forward. I guarantee it will change the way you look at the future with your dog. You may not decide to go with the West method like I did but it will certainly be an eye opener on a different dog training system.

[ezzy333]

Mo and Jonesy both use it and it works. Both are excellent trainers and do it without any fanfare. Just good common sense training.

Ezzy

[setterpoint]

I think your dog is just trying to fig.things out for himself. in other words what will work for him.dont let him keep doing this. bad habits are hard to break.this is where your yard work pays off. he knows what whoa means you have to enforce it you might have to go back to planted birds then move on

[41magsnub]

Well - we worked things out. Did some yard work and put her back on the whoa post for a few sessions. Ran her through a bunch of drills on the check cord on the one tethered chukar I was able to get and rewarded her with retrieves on a preserve pheasant that broke it's neck in the pen.

This weekend we gave it another try. First thing Saturday we did a short training session to remind her we were here to work, then hunted. She did well, lots of good points both Saturday and Sunday. Twice early on Saturday I had to whoa her on a bird she started creeping in on, but she was great after that. I think she saw the bird she was creeping on. We're going to keep working on that. However, I'm pretty happy she has remembered she is a pointer, not a flusher!

[DonF]

Knowing your dog is going to grow up is a no brainier. Thinking your there and then actually seeing the change some age makes is hard to accept. The question is alway's, what happened to my dog? It grew up! We raise our children with certain exceptions and then they hit puberty and all h*ll brakes loose. Why it's hard to believe that kid that was so good at 12 turned argumentative at 13! That is what happens with the dog but the time is between puppy hood and adult, two, they are going to try it their own way. don't be fooled by a puppy doing every thing it can to please you. It's gonna become an adult next year and puppy notion's grow weaker!

[RayGubernat]

Dogs are predators. They will do whatever they can to wrap their gums around a bird. We train them to do it in a way that allows us to reap the benefit from the hunt.

As a young dog, it will learn what you want to teach it. However, as the dog gets older, especially a high drive, hard hunting type dog...it may try to do it a "different" way. The dog wants to get the game. It may not be totally on board with the concept of the human getting the game, every single time.

I also think dogs are getting smarter and while a smarter dog is generally easier to train, it is also more able to think of "better" ways to get it done. When the dog "invents'" a new way, that usually means you will need to train that "invention" out of the dog's head.

As mentioned previously, the real key is to identify this kind of behavior early and stop it, redirect it, modify it...whatever...to serve our purpose. The less a bad habit is ingrained, the easier it is to work out or work around.

A wiser man than me once said: "What you allow...you encourage."

RayG