Force Fetch Problems (Please Help!!!!)

Lab Commander · Post by **Lab Commander** » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:52 pm

I am getting very frustrated because I have been trying to teach force fetch to my dog for over a month. I'm still using the force fetch stick and ear pinch. My dog reaches out towards the stick a few inches but just barely opens her mouth for me to put the object in. She has been this way for a long time. She is almost solid with hold but she just is struggling a lot with "fetch". Another thing is that if she grabs it a little off the ground, she holds her head in that position. I barely pinch her ear and she still hangs her head with the stick in her mouth. I don't know if I should move on or spend more time with this. I am tired of doing the same thing for a month straight but if I have to to get her trained, I will. I just need a trainer's advice.

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:25 am

It's a real , (real), tuff job to diagnose some of the problems that may arise in FF, but couple things that seem to be happening-
Your dog may be exhibiting some avoidance behavior and sounds like it's possible that she may dread the sessions with a "here we go again"attitude.
There's no "thinking forward" in terms of the dog moving forward to Fetch.
Would think after 4 weeks of proper technique you'd have made more progress, but every dog is different.
Try to seek out some professional help with this.

Perhaps a vid and post it on here, Evan Graham may see it and can give you some sound advice.

One thing I'd feel confident about submitting to you is this-
Moving on to the next component of FF before your dog understands pressure, (initial force), isn't the Rx. Each component is a bulding block to the next.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:55 am

Does she open her mouth and take the dowel when you pinch her jowls?

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:05 am

I'm wondering if she's bored with Hold and Carry? It should have only taken a week or little longer, not a month.

I'm not there so it is difficult to say for sure but I might push one or two more days, make sure she gets it and move on. One thing I've seen is dogs get the concept of training but the handler wants just a small piece to be perfect but you as a handler needs to look at the big picture. It may not be ALL perfect every day but consistency is key. If there have been 2-3 days of a solid FF step, I would move on. I haven't FF'd as many dogs as Mr. Graham so he should be your go to for information on this subject.

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:41 am

Lab Commander wrote:Another thing is that if she grabs it a little off the ground, she holds her head in that position. I barely pinch her ear and she still hangs her head with the stick in her mouth.

This sounds to me like your frustration may have carried over to confusion.

If she won't read out and just take the stick from you why is she retrieving from just off the ground. You may be trying to move to quickly.

Another issue may be she is desensitized to the ear pinch. I would try a toe hitch in the next couple of sessions. You will be breaking it up just like any other training but you will still be trying to establish a solid grab of the stick.

My experience has been just because a video says it works does not mean you should follow it verbatim. Instead try and find a method that works for your dog or hire a professional who won't apply the additional emotional pressure you may be showing.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:12 am

We're at four days since your original post. Still having trouble? Can you at least use your phone and shoot some video so this issue can be seen?

EvanG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:03 am

Always interesting to me when someone asks for help, then when asked for more info, simply drop off the board. Ain't no magic wand for dog training.

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:45 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Always interesting to me when someone asks for help, then when asked for more info, simply drop off the board. Ain't no magic wand for dog training.

Maybe he doesn't train on weekdays because his career doesn't allow it.

Not everyone has the time, resources our birds readily available too Run right out and shoot a video.

So many of your 3400 posts have nothing to do with the original posts they reply to.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:38 pm

You read all 3400? That's impressive.
Are you kidding? 3 399 of his posts are excellent advice.

( On the other hand only 5000 of mine are any good. )

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:52 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Always interesting to me when someone asks for help, then when asked for more info, simply drop off the board. Ain't no magic wand for dog training.

Jobs, family, plus many other things keep many away from the forum and their hobbies for several days at a time. Shouldn't be a mystery. I know many of you think of training as a vocation that takes daily attention for the life of your dog. But the average hunter has a dog that is a family pet and gets training when they have time and they end up with a pretty nice dog by the time it is three or four years old.

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:32 am

Hopefully one who elects to FF' their dawg understands that it's a vocation better served without huge gaps in the training process.

Am reminded of a fella' who was frustrated with FF' , " been pinching an ear for 6 weeks" and dog" still won't FETCH when commanded to."
Later discovered in that 6wk period of time the dog had 4 sessions during that period, but "dog has been in FF' for 6wks"

Hope all is well for Lab Commander.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:02 am

You guys must be kidding? Not enough time? Then you're lazy. I'm 70 years old and still work nine hours a day. When I'm starting a new dog, and I will be this year, probably my last one, that dog will be trained each and every day, five days a week, when it gets to the obedience and ff stage. Any one can find fifteen minutes twice a day to train a dog. You can do it in the basement or kitchen if it's too cold outside. No time is a cop out. If you have that litle time, you should send the dog to a trainer or not own a hunting dog. Buy an ankle biter.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:05 am

Sharon wrote:You read all 3400? That's impressive.
Are you kidding? 3 339 of his posts are excellent advice.
( On the other hand only 5000 of mine are any good. )

Don't know that I'd bother answering him Sharon, he sounds like a one dog wonder that is impressed with himself because he guides pen birds on a preserve.

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:30 am

ezzy333 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Always interesting to me when someone asks for help, then when asked for more info, simply drop off the board. Ain't no magic wand for dog training.
Jobs, family, plus many other things keep many away from the forum and their hobbies for several days at a time. Shouldn't be a mystery. I know many of you think of training as a vocation that takes daily attention for the life of your dog. But the average hunter has a dog that is a family pet and gets training when they have time and they end up with a pretty nice dog by the time it is three or four years old.

Well said Ezzy.

Maybe I should change my screen name to one dog wonder.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:14 pm

I love FF posts. I hate FFing but love the result. Interested to hear if a result is brought forth.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:You guys must be kidding? Not enough time? Then you're lazy. I'm 70 years old and still work nine hours a day. When I'm starting a new dog, and I will be this year, probably my last one, that dog will be trained each and every day, five days a week, when it gets to the obedience and ff stage. Any one can find fifteen minutes twice a day to train a dog. You can do it in the basement or kitchen if it's too cold outside. No time is a cop out. If you have that litle time, you should send the dog to a trainer or not own a hunting dog. Buy an ankle biter.

For twenty years I left home around 6 or before Monday morning and got home around 4 on Friday evening. that was at least 3 weeks out of the month. But I had the whole weekend to my self once I got the lawn, garden, and vehicles taken care of. Oh, and someone thought I should spend some time with 5 kids and help them with the dogs, rabbits, and pigeons. and there was 4-H and University Extension things to do and the other minor things that always seem to come up Saturday or after church on Sunday.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:50 pm

So Ezzy, he's training a retriever. He's into obedience and force fetch. I don't know a trainer in the country that thinks they can obedience train and ff a dog on weekends. If anyone tells me they did, I'd say they're full of crap. Obedience and ff are all about consistency. If you skip days and sessions, training lags and the dog digresses. Once started you HAVE to keep at it every day until the dog is finished. ANYONE has the time to do it. If you can't allocate a lousy 30" a day to training the dog until he's through obedience and ff, they you have no business with a dog. This a retriever. They need a program and consistency, not weekends.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:09 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:So Ezzy, he's training a retriever. He's into obedience and force fetch. I don't know a trainer in the country that thinks they can obedience train and ff a dog on weekends. If anyone tells me they did, I'd say they're full of crap. Obedience and ff are all about consistency. If you skip days and sessions, training lags and the dog digresses. Once started you HAVE to keep at it every day until the dog is finished. ANYONE has the time to do it. If you can't allocate a lousy 30" a day to training the dog until he's through obedience and ff, they you have no business with a dog. This a retriever. They need a program and consistency, not weekends.

I an not arguing the fact that the dog does better with consistent training, however, there are several of us in this world who at some stage of our lives were not able to do that to your standard but I doubt if any of us other than you are going to own or not own a dog according to whether you say we can. And believe it or not I have seen and hunted with some really nice Labs that were raised and trained by a hunter who farmed and there was a month or so when they rarely saw the dog let alone trained it, and there are a couple of more of us that think we should be able to have a dog that are not always able to spend time with it everyday. When I was involved in training and boarding dogs it was a different situation but normal living says that there will be times that we won't get everything done we planned on.. In the last couple of years I have had 2 hip replacements and 2 back surgeries and there were days when I didn't feel like chasing a dog or caring for the pigeons but I didn't get rid of them as you think I should. Just give us a little leeway and most of us will make it and be quite happy but we might ask you your opinion about something if you will let us keep our dogs.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:17 pm

Ezzy, we are talking about a SIX TO TEN WEEK period when this is the case. The rest of the time it isn't as critical. I can't believe you're even debating this.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:25 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Ezzy, we are talking about a SIX TO TEN WEEK period when this is the case. The rest of the time it isn't as critical. I can't believe you're even debating this.

And I can't believe you are telling people they shouldn't have a dog. I understand what you are trying to say since I have been here for a day or two but many of the people asking questions have not been and your comments have to be a real turn off to them. I think we all need to give a little leeway and not try to make dog training sound like brain surgery. I have never bought a dog so I would have something to train or spend the rest of my life training. But I have has some wonderful dogs including two laying here at my feet that have been neglected too many days but they are still a joy to have and to use.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:37 pm

You have pointing dogs Ezzy, this man has a retriever. Vastly different. This gentlemen is SEEKING ADVICE about problem. There is nothing in his post that says he is not consistent. He is trying to do it right.

I'll stand by my statement, especially for FLUSHING dogs, if you want a hunting dog, allot time for it, send it to a trainer, or buy an ankle biter because they'll sure as heck never be happy with an untrained flushing breed in the field and especially in a blind.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:32 am

gonehuntin' offers the most succinct, spot-on gundog training advice on the Internet. Including why some people shouldn't have dogs. End of story.

MG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:17 am

crackerd wrote:gonehuntin' offers the most succinct, spot-on gundog training advice on the Internet. Including why some people shouldn't have dogs. End of story.

MG

End of story.

In your mind but not everyone's. That is why we have people on here with different opinions and a place for them to express theirs.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:25 am

That is why we have people on here with different opinions and a place for them to express theirs.[/quote]

Yes Ezzy, thank goodness there are hoards like this that allow discussion and a variance in ideas, opinions and beliefs.

will-kelly · Post by **will-kelly** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:01 pm

Before I switched to a Viszla I had a lab for 14 years. On a hunting scale of one to ten I'd give him an 8. 10 in the water. 7 in the field. 9 in the fetch.

He was a dog out of a Westminster line. Not field bred. I worked 85 hours a week running my Restaurant and bar. I only spent weekends training. He was never force fetched but always delivered to hand. Flawless on triples. I took him to a Mike Lardy seminar in the early 90's and Mike didn't believe me when I told him where I got him from and that I trained him very infrequently myself. I did spend some time with Pat Fenstimocker in Bucks County PA she belonged to a club I belonged to.

He was set up to be used as a stud but when we got his UPENN hips and elbows he failed miserably. He was neutered at 18 months.

Funny thing is that dog swam 300 days a year and never showed hip problems until he was 12. That was only after he was hit by ateenager in a truck speeding through my neighborhood.

What if the owner can't afford the Trainer. Should he just give up. Millions of dogs were trained by the owners for centuries before the printing process or Electric colar were ever invented.

It sounds to me like the dog is anticipating the ear punch and becoming desensitized/conditioned to the process. The original poster should take a step back and change his approach in my humble opinion.

banknote · Post by **banknote** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:50 pm

Lab Commander wrote:...My dog reaches out towards the stick a few inches but just barely opens her mouth for me to put the object in....

Maybe you're turning the pressure off for her instead of making her turn it off, herself?

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