Correction after bumping bird

[ruffbritt4]

My Brittany will hold point until I flush on pen raised birds, but on grouse he will point every now and then. I understand they are more difficult, and will not allow him to get close. When he bumps a bird what should I do? Should I pick him up and take him to where he was when he bumped the bird? Thanks

[Sharon]

"Should I pick him up and take him to where he was when he bumped the bird? " quote

Differing opinions on whether this is useful or not. If he's young and hasn't had a lot of experience on wild birds, it's just going to take time and experience.

[bonasa]

Does he stop when the grouse flushes or chase? I forget how old this dog is?

[RayGubernat]

ruff -

If you stopped the dog(assuming it chased), and then physically picked the dog up, brought it back several steps, then gently placed the dog down, styled it up and made it stand there for a good solid minute or two before releasing the dog to continue the hunt... you would not be doing anything that could cause harm. This is one instance where smoking cigarettes did actually come in handy. I would light up after setting the dog up and then just quietly hang out there until the cigarette was done. if the dog let down, I would go and style it back up, but we were there until the butt was done.

I used to bring the dog all the way back to the point of the infraction to set it back up. I have since come to understand that it is not necessary to go all the way back. several steps will suffice, which my old back likes just fine. Some of my pointers tip the scales at 50+ pounds and lugging them around in the field gets old...quick.

RayG

[ruffbritt4]

Does he stop when the grouse flushes or chase? I forget how old this dog is?

Thanks guys. He normally chases for maybe 20 yards. He is 2.5 years old.

[gonehuntin']

How do you know he's bumping the grouse? Perhaps he's just to close when he encounters them and they flush naturally. If he runs by to close and they flush, that's not his fault. If he points, then roads in, that's a fault. Or, if he makes scents and keeps moving in, that's a fault. What makes you think he's bumping them? Grouse are a very tough bird to handle.

[millerms06]

2.5 years old
handles pen birds better than wild.

This is my take:

I am interested in hearing your experience with pen raised birds more.
1. Is the dog on top of the birds when he points them?
2. Are you creating wild flushes when you use pen raised birds via a release trap or letting a few fly while the dog is searching in a field (stop to flush)?
3 Are you killing every pen bird for this dog or letting a few fly and or disallowing retrieves to reinforce whoaing?
4. Does the dog have on anything extra when working pen birds? E collar around the belly? Check cord?
5. Are you correcting the dog the same way during hunting as you would with pen raised birds?

Try getting the dog to understand Whoa or whatever cue you give for whoa as an obedience command and nothing more but an obedience command. Start in the yard, make the dog consistently produce. Then in the yard whoa the dog and create distractions by throwing a dead bird or having someone else throw a dead or live bird in a hidden location. Keep the dog guessing so he learns to stay there all the time until you release him. If it were me, and it will be for the next few months, I would try to eliminate chase by enforcing your steadying command in the yard with creating as much distraction scenarios as you can. Get him to think kiling the bird is not important, whoaing completely is.

Yes grouse, depending on pressure and time of year, do not let a dog get close to them without flushing wild. Train for it. My thinking with this is the dog is getting pissed because he is doing everything right with a similar bird under a somewhat similar situation and things are not happening the same way. The pen birds do not flush with pressure when you work with them. Make them. Do not hard plant birds. If I can make a double flush going it gets the point across within less time. Flush the first bird, shoot it, keep the dog there, walk towards the dead bird and kick or let go another. Kill that one too and bring a dead bird for the dog to smell while on point. The dog will realize its not the bird that important its whoaing that is.

[ruffbritt4]

How do you know he's bumping the grouse? Perhaps he's just to close when he encounters them and they flush naturally. If he runs by to close and they flush, that's not his fault. If he points, then roads in, that's a fault. Or, if he makes scents and keeps moving in, that's a fault. What makes you think he's bumping them? Grouse are a very tough bird to handle.

He is making scent then moving in. He has improved since the start of the season, I just did not know if I should correct him.

[RayGubernat]

How do you know he's bumping the grouse? Perhaps he's just to close when he encounters them and they flush naturally. If he runs by to close and they flush, that's not his fault. If he points, then roads in, that's a fault. Or, if he makes scents and keeps moving in, that's a fault. What makes you think he's bumping them? Grouse are a very tough bird to handle.

He is making scent then moving in. He has improved since the start of the season, I just did not know if I should correct him.

I say absolutely yes you should stand the dog up and make him stand there if he is roading in on birds. If the dog is roading in, it will not get better on its own, but rather will probably get worse. It may not sound like much discipline, but for a dog that would much, much rather be off hunting, having to stand there when it knows the bird is long gone is discipline aplenty. You need not say a thing. Probably best if you say nothing at all.

Let it sink in that if he does not present a bird for you to flush and shoot, he gets to stand around instead of hunt. That might well be enough.

Years back I had a dog that positively lived and breathed to get birds. He was tough as nails and would bounce back from a licking or an ear stretching like nothing happened. He would get pretty headstrong sometimes and bust a bird. If I made him walk at heel in the fields for 10-15 minutes, he was more submissive than if he were whipped. If I actually put him in the car, he was absolutely crushed. He loved to hunt so much...he would cave in and do it my way.

RayG

[DonF]

Likely if he bump's a bird your not gonna get there in time to correct him. I don't set dog's back, the bird is teaching your dog better than you can now. He knows what to do and he's finding out wild grouse are much less forgiving than pen raised game birds. Keep running him, he'll figure it out. I didn't have pointing dog's back when I hunted grouse but my understanding is a grouse dog come's around slower and I suspect for no other reason than the grouse is not as forgiving as other game bird's. This is a place where the remote and pigeon's come in great in training. If you never allow your dog very close to the pigeon in training, that is going to carry over in the field. But using pen raised bird's, they often allow the dog to really crowd them, your dog then believe's it can crowd all bird's. I wouldn't back your dog up, leave him to learn now and he will.

[bonasa]

First is he collar conditioned? If not i would do all this following training on a check cord and in the later stages have him drag the cord. I would stop hunting this dog and take the chase away. Plant some birds and have a friend flush them or use remote traps in grouse cover (not fields). When the dog is well upwind but in a position to see the flush, either have your buddy flush them or you push the button for the launcher, when he breaks set him back as Ray has suggested. When he has perfected this, bring him in and allow him to try and point a planted bird or a launcher bird. when he does and remains standing , kill it for him. Mix it up and fly some for him making him stand there, verses killing them. In the spring proof him on a couple of woodcock when they come through. Later in the summer, work him some more but on all pre released birds no more launchers. When the wild bird training opener comes, proof him on a few grouse. Then when your hunting season opens you will be well versed in how to correct him should be make a mistake and he will understand what is expected of him. A few means around 3 contacts over the course of an hour, better yet one contact, make the correction and then put him up for a few days to a week.

[gonehuntin']

Ok, that is a crime. If you want to shorten you training time, start in the yard with launchers. Set up the launchers to simulate wild birds first in a field. Work the dog crosswind to the bird. Watch him closely. When he makes scent then roads in on the bird, pop the trap. This teaches him that any movement will result in a flushed bird and in him not getting that bird. I do this a half dozen times and if the dog won't learn, I correct him. If he's a collar dog, as soon as he turns for the scent and takes a step, I'll command "No, whoa!" and tickle him with a low setting, three on a TT pro 100. If he is not a collar dog, I give him the save verbal command, pick him up and shake him, set him down, and tell him whoa.

Dogs are much like people. Some ain't as bright and don't have as much of the correct instinct as others. Not all dog's learn from their mistakes. Some dog's will delightedly flush birds their entire lives if not physically corrected. You say he's getting better. He may be teaching himself and this will become a non issue. I always correct it in the yard to be sure.

The really tough thing about training a grouse dog is that most of the time you can't see the dog, you can only guess what happened. Grouse are a tough bird to handle and very difficult to train a dog on.

[ruffbritt4]

Bonasa,
He is collar conditioned.
Gonehuntin
He will hold pen birds I think he has not learned the distance he can get to grouse

[hettmoe]

Let him learn on wild birds. If he's getting better, he just needs more wild birds.

[Becassier]

I didn't have pointing dog's back when I hunted grouse but my understanding is a grouse dog come's around slower and I suspect for no other reason than the grouse is not as forgiving as other game bird's.

+1 to the above statement

I may sound like a broken record, but this is why we are convinced the best method to develop a Grouse dog is a silent system.

We never start formal training until our young dogs have run on wild birds twice. The spring migration on woodcock and fall running on Grouse and Woodcock. We drive as far as it takes to find resident woodcock, we do not wait for the "flight" which are fun but can be a little overwhelming for a young dog.

Once we begin formal training, we use the "Silent Stand" command on wild flush, this will set the foundation for the dog to do it while hunting. The look on a well trained dogs face when they experience a wild Grouse flush is awesome. They stop, stand and give you a look as is to say "S+++ I messed that up, not gonna do that again"

1.) A Grouse dog must be allowed to develop
2.) Allowed to learn how to handle birds on their own

Hunting pressured Grouse is an unique opportunity, one that offers a rare chance for both hunter and the dog to develop a passion.
Your dog is still pretty young and I don't know how much experience you have had training. If Grouse is something you really want to pursue maybe try and seek out a mentor that can help you in person, it is hard to give advice on a forum.

PM me and I can point you in a direction for reading material..

If you do FaceBook see: American Woodcock Organization or Ruffed Grouse Society

[gonehuntin']

Bonasa,
He is collar conditioned.
Gonehuntin
He will hold pen birds I think he has not learned the distance he can get to grouse

You have to look at HOW the dog is holding pen birds. Generally, a dog will react to pen birds the same as wild birds IF the pen birds are USED like wild birds. I don't believe in training only on wild birds. I like to use pen birds to teach the dog the BASICS, ( steady to wing, not roading the bird), then when I know they understand what I want, I switch to wild birds and only go back for brush up's if needed.

You can Greatly reduce a dog's learning curve by training in this manor.

[JKP]

Just wondering....how many pen birds has this dog worked?....and how many wild birds has this dog worked??

[bonasa]

Ruff,
It's species specific to an extent, pointing each species a little different based on their scent cone. You have been given a wealth of knowledge. A bit of more advice would be to find a proven method and or a mentor to show you and explain it. My personal experience has been that a dog progresses faster and is more reliable "over the hill" and out of your immediate area such as grouse hunting when a silent correction system has been utilized and the process remains between the dog and the bird. The sight of a bird on the ground and on the wing means stop and stand there in addition to the sound of the flush, their smell, your gunshot and another dog on point all mean stand there. You shouldn't have to tell them to do so. Just my experience.