force fetch prior to bird exposure?

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nritacco
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force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by nritacco » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:23 am

Sorry if this has been covered previously...couldn't find it using the search.

Would anyone advise against force fetching a pup prior to bird exposure? The author of Twentieth Century Bird Dog Training (Er Myron Shelley) advises against it because he said he has seen dogs get so into retrieving they no have no interest in birds. I cannot understand why the force fetch would discourage a bird drive. Any thoughts? There is a limit to the training I can do during the winter. Birds are in the plan for spring time. I definitely could work the force fetch, though.

Appreciate any feedback.

Thank you

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Hattrick
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by Hattrick » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:48 pm

Yes

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gundogguy
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by gundogguy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:49 am

nritacco wrote:Sorry if this has been covered previously...couldn't find it using the search.

The author of Twentieth Century Bird Dog Training (Er Myron Shelley) advises against it because he said he has seen dogs get so into retrieving they no have no interest in birds. I cannot understand why the force fetch would discourage a bird drive. Any thoughts?
Appreciate any feedback.

Thank you
I wonder how many dogs he (Myron Shelley) had to FF to come to that opinion? How many have you FF?
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

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SwitchGrassWPG
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:11 am

Anything that puts pressure on a dog has the potential to affect search or drive. Some dogs fear that pressure and will not venture far from you to prevent the pressure being applied.

I think some additional information about your dog would be beneficial for responses. Breed, age, exposure so far, etc...
Only thing worse than a bad dog is no dog at all...

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:42 am

Before bird introduction? No way. Most people get to bird introduction right away. You get a 8 wk old pup and force fetch it? Force fetch an adult dog. I think retriever's do it by about 6mos but they bring their dog's on faster.
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by MSU Aggie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:44 am

All the dogs I've trained have always been on birds before ff. During ff I use some frozen birds occasionally, but other than that its minimal birds during early ff. Maybe one a week until I think they have firm grasp on ff, then back to daily.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:21 am

It is a common myth that ff increases bird desire in all dogs and certainly, nothing could be further from the truth. In some dogs with only marginal desire to retrieve birds, it can completely kill the desire. Before I ff any dog, especially a pointing dog, I want that dog to be a bird-a-holic. Only then will I ff it. I have my dogs on birds very young though, retrieving and pointing from 8 weeks on if they want to.
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by crackerd » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:41 am

Once again, gonehuntin' with gospel - the gospel according to retriever, spaniel and versatile breed trainers all.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by rinker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:47 am

I wonder how many dogs he (Myron Shelley) had to FF to come to that opinion?
I would guess that Mr. Shelley FF'd a lot of dogs. Mr. Shelley was a pioneer in dog training. My understanding is that he was the first person to use pigeons in dog training, he was the first person to use johnny houses, or recall funnels.

The book that the OP is referring to was written in 1921. It is a great book, and was ahead of it's time. I would suggest, however, to the OP to take a look at some of the more modern training books/programs.

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gundogguy
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by gundogguy » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:55 am

rinker wrote:
I wonder how many dogs he (Myron Shelley) had to FF to come to that opinion?
I would guess that Mr. Shelley FF'd a lot of dogs. Mr. Shelley was a pioneer in dog training. My understanding is that he was the first person to use pigeons in dog training, he was the first person to use johnny houses, or recall funnels.

The book that the OP is referring to was written in 1921. It is a great book, and was ahead of it's time. I would suggest, however, to the OP to take a look at some of the more modern training books/programs.

In it of it self that's nice to know. FF is not about guess and by gosh. It is about a clear and concise method of explaining to a dog how to be come a problem solver. FF if done correctly, say circa 2015, offers the dog clarity in what is expected. Thousands of dog have been FF over the years, before bird introduction only to go on to become Field Champions and high level shooting dogs.
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force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:24 am

My current dog might have some big time bird issues had I not got him on birds before FF. He was a little unsure at first when we would take walks but more exposure increased his independence factor enormously. I would never go through FF before bird work or recommend to anyone to do FF first.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by nritacco » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:56 am

Wow, great feedback, everyone! Thank you very much.

To respond to several of the above questions...this would be the first pup I force fetched. My pup is a 7 months old GSP. I tend to like the Delmar Smith training method, but was curios about the FF after reading Mr. Shelley's book.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback!

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by Sharon » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:16 pm

[quote="SwitchGrassWPG"]Anything that puts pressure on a dog has the potential to affect search or drive. Some dogs fear that pressure and will not venture far from you to prevent the pressure being applied. ............................................

quote]


Exactly.
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by MSU Aggie » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:43 pm

SwitchGrassWPG wrote:Anything that puts pressure on a dog has the potential to affect search or drive. Some dogs fear that pressure and will not venture far from you to prevent the pressure being applied.
I currently have a lab that this applies to, would only go out about 10 yards and then come back. It took a week of daily planted birds to fix it. All dogs react differently to ff.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by Tanner01 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:40 pm

nritacco wrote:Wow, great feedback, everyone! Thank you very much.

To respond to several of the above questions...this would be the first pup I force fetched. My pup is a 7 months old GSP. I tend to like the Delmar Smith training method, but was curios about the FF after reading Mr. Shelley's book.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback!
If your dog is 7 months old and has not been exposed to birds yet, then in my opinion you are failing as a new trainer. Get the dog on birds and build desire. That would be my focus before Force Fetch.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by Vman » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:16 am

I have had a couple of GWPs come to me for Bird work and steadiness that were FFed before they came to me. Both dogs did well and looked good doing the work. But they were Professionally FFed and the degree of pressure is different dog to dog and trainer to trainer. Some dogs can do it and others can`t. First time FFing I would not recommend it. It is going to be a big learning experience for you and the dog and mistakes are going to be made. My own personal feelings on all this is, I want all the work before the shot done to expectations before moving on to the work after the shot. If the work before the shot is not complete what is there to retrieve?

nritacco
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by nritacco » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:20 pm

If your dog is 7 months old and has not been exposed to birds yet, then in my opinion you are failing as a new trainer. Get the dog on birds and build desire. That would be my focus before Force Fetch.

Friend, this is a hobby. I'm having fun with my dog. I have a full time job and a full time family. Not everyone has the resources to train like a pro.

I'm only failing if my pup and I don't have fun, and if we don't learn from our time working together. Thanks for your input.

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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:40 pm

nritacco wrote:If your dog is 7 months old and has not been exposed to birds yet, then in my opinion you are failing as a new trainer. Get the dog on birds and build desire. That would be my focus before Force Fetch.

Friend, this is a hobby. I'm having fun with my dog. I have a full time job and a full time family. Not everyone has the resources to train like a pro.

I'm only failing if my pup and I don't have fun, and if we don't learn from our time working together. Thanks for your input.
Amen! I love training and I love my dog... But life is busy so my training schedule coincidentally lines up with my free time. Weird.
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Re: force fetch prior to bird exposure?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:39 am

You have TIME to worry about this. When I was a trainer, MANY of the dog's that came into me were 1 1/2- 2 years old. There's only so many hours in a day. Get him birdy first, worry about the training later. The most important things you can do with that pup is to develop independence by letting him run on long walks, use mild correction when he disobeys in the house, like NO, so he gets used to being corrected and expose him to birds. The rest will come in time.
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