Running birds

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joachimt
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Running birds

Post by joachimt » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:00 pm

It is the last few days of hunting pheasants and I have run into some problems with my 3 year old GSP. She is steady to shot and fall and has been doing very well all season until recently. The pheasants we have hunted have really been running on her. She tracks them well and maybe will stop and point for a second but then when the birds move she continues tracking, often getting ahead of me and either flushes the bird or the bird gets up way ahead of her. I have not shot any of these birds since I dont want her to think she can flush birds and be rewarded. Iam just wondering this off season how to teach her to relocate a bird or track a running bird and then hold point without bumping or flushing the bird. yesterday she got up 7 roosters, she may have pointed some but in the thick cover i couldnt see her or hear her bell so didnt shoot the bird not knowing if she pointed. The others she tracked and flushed so I didnt shoot those either. Any advice on these late season runners!!

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Re: Running birds

Post by Sharon » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:34 pm

How much pheasant work has the dog had? If not much , you're seeing an inexperienced dog trying to figure out those tricky birds. Experience should solve the problem.
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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:15 pm

Stop her as a stop to flush and shoot the birds encouraging her to hit the birds harder and freeze them, not track and creep. She will not handle all late season birds, but enough of them to have a good hunt. Cautious and pheasants are not my way to hunt, give me the hard chargers, I don't need to shoot every bird out there, just a couple, three.

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Re: Running birds

Post by Tooling » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:13 pm

This is the 2nd yr hunting my young shorthair on Pheasants and he's got plenty of vinegar (he is 2yrs 8 mos) - along with epic failures we have also had a lot of success, there have been moments when I'm wondering if I'm just botching the whole thing w/my dog considering what it takes to put birds in the bag. I've also watched him handle birds like I have only heard people talk about having never seen it myself - it is amazing and it's all him.

My advice is to keep up with your training but when you hit the phez fields - keep up w/your dog as best you can and just keep your mouth shut.

If you are a bird dog lover and have a decent dog w/a solid fetch...give it time, have some patience and just let the dog show you how - Pheasant hunting is IT!!

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Re: Running birds

Post by blanked » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:49 pm

X2 on tooling advice. The whoa crowd will differ

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Re: Running birds

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:54 pm

I am part of the whoa crowd and I see no reason to differ. We have tried to explain whoa is not used to have a dog point, it is primarily a safety command.

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Re: Running birds

Post by JKP » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:37 pm

Pheasant dogs are made...not born. Teach whoa, easy on, and shoot when the dog hasn't made a mistake. Other than that, it takes wild birds to teach the dog.

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Re: Running birds

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:07 pm

JKP wrote:Pheasant dogs are made...not born. Teach whoa, easy on, and shoot when the dog hasn't made a mistake. Other than that, it takes wild birds to teach the dog.
Whoa has never been a part of the hunt training I did and native birds have long been gone in our area but we are still turning out some wll mannered dogs that are good as well. The native birds will flush quicker sometimes and the dog needs to experience that if that is what you are hunting.
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Re: Running birds

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:17 am

I know this is an old post and I'm hoping people forgive my pointer ignorance (due to never having one), but in your opinions which type of pointer is a better pheasant dog: a) the hard running/stop on a dime dog, or b) the dog that hits the scent, points, relocates, points, relocates, etc....?

I would like to measure success in this with held birds that flush in range, and I understand opinions will vary so I'm hoping people can share their experience/reasoning.

Thanks!
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Re: Running birds

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:15 am

I am not sure what the best answer is to this question as I have never managed to make up my own mind what a dog should do for the best results. Maybe it depends on the individual dog ....and the individual pheasant ? I have found that brittanies are more inclined to try to relocate a running pheasant by breaking off the birds track and then hunt for it using the wind before pointing it again. G.S.P.'s and some of the other versatile breeds seem to be more inclined to track the bird's footscent.

This can easily result in the dog almost running right into the bird if the bird has turned away from the wind giving the dog very little chance of stopping and pointing once more. This results in a bird that can get up out of gunshot.

Sometimes I prefer dogs to work on running pheasants the "Brittany" way, sometimes the G.S.P. way...it depends on which way is the most successful "on the day."

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Re: Running birds

Post by Grange » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:57 am

Neil wrote:Stop her as a stop to flush and shoot the birds encouraging her to hit the birds harder and freeze them, not track and creep.
I'm not following you here. Can you explain that a little more? I understand the stop to flush training, but I'm confused as to how shooting the bird will encourage a dog to hit birds harder.

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Re: Running birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:18 pm

We've through this ring around the rosie on here before but I think a dog learns to handle runners or it doesn't and there's no teaching them. They have to teach themselves. At first they try to track them. That doesn't work unless the bird runs upwind. A smart dog will determine which way the bird ran, then cut a large circle around it downwind, trying to relocate or cut the bird off. Some learn it, some don't.
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Re: Running birds

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:29 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:I know this is an old post and I'm hoping people forgive my pointer ignorance (due to never having one), but in your opinions which type of pointer is a better pheasant dog: a) the hard running/stop on a dime dog, or b) the dog that hits the scent, points, relocates, points, relocates, etc....?

I would like to measure success in this with held birds that flush in range, and I understand opinions will vary so I'm hoping people can share their experience/reasoning.

Thanks!

If you have a running bird, such as a pheasant, a dog that tracks and is cautious may very well make for a loooooong day in open country. A bird will run and run and run...until something keeps it from running. Then, it will either sit tight...or it will fly. a careful dog will track, and stop and track and stop until the bird is stopped by something.

If you have a fencerow that ends up at a creek or at a plowed field. or a defined piece of cover like the cover around a waterhole, a tracker type dog may well pin a bird that does not want to fly when it runs out of cover. if it is a defined piece of cover, the tracker dog may herd the birds to one end, where standers will tend to force the birds to sit or fly and will point the birds that squatted.

But in open country, the slasher type dog that can scent a bird and come in and catch that bird between a fart and a sh!t, so that it neither runs nor flushes, but instead is paralyzed somewhere in between... is the kind of dog I want. if you are REALLY LUCKY, that will also be the kind of dog that will see and hear a bird running in front of it and figure out how to outflank the bird by running out and around the bird and come in from the front or the side and cut it off between itself and the hunter. Now THAT is something truly special.

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Re: Running birds

Post by Tooling » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:38 pm

Suppose you put up a fence about 4' wide x 20' long with grassy cover within at the front edge and more cover about 12' ahead..pull some flight feathers and plant a phez in the first batch of cover and hidden so pup points on scent when he is brought out down-wind..walk over push the bird to run while a second handler uses a CC to relocate the dog in a controlled fashion until pup picks it up on his own w/o a CC in order to set up future training drills..see where I'm going w/this? Somebody somewhere must have tried this.

I once asked a pro about this and he said that he had tried something similar but it never really worked out..he stated the same thing as has been said - the dog either has it or it doesn't..

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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:41 pm

The how come question for me is this.
Why are pointing breeds not run on pheasants in Trials? Cover dog trials not with standing where they are run on Wild grouse and woodcock.
It has always seemed odd to me that Spaniels are the only dogs run on Pheasants that I am aware of. Taking runners in a spaniel trial properly is a sure way to impress the judging panel.
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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:21 pm

gundogguy wrote:The how come question for me is this.
Why are pointing breeds not run on pheasants in Trials? Cover dog trials not with standing where they are run on Wild grouse and woodcock.
It has always seemed odd to me that Spaniels are the only dogs run on Pheasants that I am aware of. Taking runners in a spaniel trial properly is a sure way to impress the judging panel.
There many pointing dog trials ran on pheasants; All-Age, Shooting Dog, Walking, Brittany, GSP, etc. Many wild, some released. Baldwinsville, NY, Harper, OH, Circle, MT, and number of places in Nebraska and the Dakotas come to mind.

In small, thick covers with good populations the spaniels are the ticket. But if your faced with 4 or 5 sections with the birds spaced out, pointing dogs save some boot leather.

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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:46 am

Neil wrote:
gundogguy wrote:The how come question for me is this.
Why are pointing breeds not run on pheasants in Trials? Cover dog trials not with standing where they are run on Wild grouse and woodcock.
It has always seemed odd to me that Spaniels are the only dogs run on Pheasants that I am aware of. Taking runners in a spaniel trial properly is a sure way to impress the judging panel.
There many pointing dog trials ran on pheasants; All-Age, Shooting Dog, Walking, Brittany, GSP, etc. Many wild, some released. Baldwinsville, NY, Harper, OH, Circle, MT, and number of places in Nebraska and the Dakotas come to mind.
Thanks Neil,
I appreciate the correction. I have learned something to day,and that is a good thing. I have judged American Complete trials here in Michigan and have never known that there are Clubs around the country, that hold pheasant trials. This is of some interest to me. Further work is needed. Thanks again!
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Re: Running birds

Post by crackerd » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:00 am

gundogguy wrote:
Neil wrote:
gundogguy wrote:The how come question for me is this.
Why are pointing breeds not run on pheasants in Trials? Cover dog trials not with standing where they are run on Wild grouse and woodcock.
It has always seemed odd to me that Spaniels are the only dogs run on Pheasants that I am aware of. Taking runners in a spaniel trial properly is a sure way to impress the judging panel.
There many pointing dog trials ran on pheasants; All-Age, Shooting Dog, Walking, Brittany, GSP, etc. Many wild, some released. Baldwinsville, NY, Harper, OH, Circle, MT, and number of places in Nebraska and the Dakotas come to mind.
Thanks Neil,
I appreciate the correction. I have learned something to day,and that is a good thing. I have judged American Complete trials here in Michigan and have never known that there are Clubs around the country, that hold pheasant trials. This is of some interest to me. Further work is needed. Thanks again!
Gundogguy, retriever trials are also "run" on pheasants - often hens. But "run" is the operative word - as these are shot birds and if they ain't shot dead (as flyers), a dog gets a "no bird" from the judge as soon as the pheasant starts to run. And I leave it up to you to discern why hen pheasants are shot as the flyer in a retriever trial - or why, in other retriever trials, the flyer might be a screaming cockbird. So to recap: Run on pheasants, yes, but no pheasant runners (or sucker birds) in retriever trials.

MG

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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:57 am

Gunfight,

Do a Google for American Field, I think it comes up as Village Press, and the online mag will have a schedule of trials, "pheasant" will be in the title. I think Ohio will be the closest for you, usually held in the Fall.

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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:27 am

Neil wrote:Gunfight,

Do a Google for American Field, I think it comes up as Village Press, and the online mag will have a schedule of trials, "pheasant" will be in the title. I think Ohio will be the closest for you, usually held in the Fall.

Very Good thank-you!
One example I found was this one "National Amateur Pheasant Shooting Dog Championship"
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/ ... ip/1288177
Now are these shoot to kill trials and is retrieving required?
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Re: Running birds

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:39 am

Ray and Trekmoor,

So I'm understanding that you both believe an air scenting pointing dog will hold more birds than a dog that tracks. Now I'm going to be specific, will that still work in cattails? And what's to stop a bird from flushing or running with the slasher type?

I'm just trying to better understand the mechanics of a pointer on wild pheasants.
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Re: Running birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:17 am

When you hunt with a pointing dog, especially on pheasant, it is most effective to cut a wide circle around the dog and come in from the front. This many times will pin the bird between dog and hunter and stop it from running. If the bird runs and the dog tracks it, he is almost sure to flush it 100 yards out, or at least a good distance out. A dog that points, then when the bird moves, hooks a large downwind circle around him, coming in and pointing him again, has much the same effect as the hunter that circles to the front and pins the bird between dog and hunter.

A couple of years ago a young fella and I were hunting a fence row where I had crippled a bird the day before and never found. The dog went on point up a hill and on the fence row. I told him to go up and shoot the bird since his legs were seven feet long and I could never keep up with him. The bird took off running, the dog started tracking the bird and pointed it again. Again the bird ran. This time the dog ran out into the field, cut 100 yards in front of the bird, and came charging back toward Loren. The bird was still running from Loren and she nailed it head on when coming back to him.

A dog that tracks only may never have caught that bird. Not all dog's learn to hunt a bird like that but those that do are spectacular to watch.
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Re: Running birds

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:38 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Neil wrote:Gunfight,

Do a Google for American Field, I think it comes up as Village Press, and the online mag will have a schedule of trials, "pheasant" will be in the title. I think Ohio will be the closest for you, usually held in the Fall.

Very Good thank-you!
One example I found was this one "National Amateur Pheasant Shooting Dog Championship"
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/ ... ip/1288177
Now are these shoot to kill trials and is retrieving required?
American Field trials are blank gun only. No retrieve is required in any American Field trial, so no birds are killed for the dogs in these trials.

RayG

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Re: Running birds

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:57 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Ray and Trekmoor,

So I'm understanding that you both believe an air scenting pointing dog will hold more birds than a dog that tracks. Now I'm going to be specific, will that still work in cattails? And what's to stop a bird from flushing or running with the slasher type?

I'm just trying to better understand the mechanics of a pointer on wild pheasants.
I have seen it a few times close up...with the bird staring right at the dog, almost ready to take flight...but not quite....

It almost looks like the dog "surprised" the bird. Fowl are not known for giant intellects(hence the term bird brain), so my best guess is that the dog's sudden appearance short circuited the bird's decision process and caused it to freeze, somewhere between running off and flying.

If anyone has a better answer, go for it.

RayG

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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:20 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
gundogguy wrote:
Neil wrote:Gunfight,

Do a Google for American Field, I think it comes up as Village Press, and the online mag will have a schedule of trials, "pheasant" will be in the title. I think Ohio will be the closest for you, usually held in the Fall.

Very Good thank-you!
One example I found was this one "National Amateur Pheasant Shooting Dog Championship"
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/ ... ip/1288177
Now are these shoot to kill trials and is retrieving required?
American Field trials are blank gun only. No retrieve is required in any American Field trial, so no birds are killed for the dogs in these trials.

RayG
Circle are some of the best grounds we have, but you will need to borrow are horse to see what is going on. It will change what you think a good pheasant dog really is. You will see some stop to flush, and a few with the birds leaving early, but most will be good clean finds with the birds within shotgun range.

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Re: Running birds

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:27 pm

As I said earlier, I do not really know what a dog should do for the best if a pheasant runs from it's point. I always have my dog flush the bird, I never do it unless something very unexpected happens. If I send a dog in to make the flush and the bird has ran I expect my dog to keep going after it on wind scent and try to put the bird up within shotgun range. I follow up the dog ready to shoot.

If the bird has ran a good way off and if it has tried to break off to either side and "out of the wind" then I like my dogs to either try to relocate the bird by quartering the wind and then pointing it again ...or..... to begin to track the bird using it's footscent. The tracking dog ....if it is good at tracking... is a very certain method of finding the bird again but it has some drawbacks. If the dog tracks too fast and too far for me to keep up with it then the dog can run nose-down right into the bird and flush it out of gunshot range. I train my dogs to track for maybe ten yards then wait for me to catch up then resume tracking again and so on and so on. This works fine if the bird has stopped running and has tucked in somewhere nearby .... I get my shot but if the bird keeps on running then it will escape unless I am willing to follow a tracking dog on a live footscent for hundreds of yards. I am not willing to do that because I think it encourages dogs to run nose down as they hunt, they start to hunt for old footscent.

I have only had one dog that would break off a footscent track, run a big semi circle out ahead and then try to flush the bird by hunting it's way back into me. When that Brittany bitch did that it was due mainly to impatience at my too slow walking pace as I tried to keep up with her. She would break off the track, run out around the running bird then hunt back in. Only seldom did she ever manage to re-point a bird when doing this but she usually did get the bird into the air. Sometimes I got a shot, sometimes I did not.

I do not think there is a dead certain method of getting a shot at a hard running pheasant. I think they are birds that are ready to fly off if pressured too hard by a dog and that pressure can sometimes be applied out of gunshot range. The dog has done it's best and that is all I ask.

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Re: Running birds

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:33 pm

Thanks! I'll be honest, I know little of pointing dogs other than what I've learned after hunting over some a handful of times. I hunt pheasants with flushers here in MN and have had success with them. I'm about 10 months out from purchasing another dog and I'm considering a pointing breed because I also enjoy ruffed grouse hunting and hunting grouse over a pointing dog is romanticism at its finest. That being said, I hunt pheasant more, which I already have a dog for, but I'm trying to gage what I should look for in a line if I go with a pointy type.

Thanks!!
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Re: Running birds

Post by polmaise » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:52 am

joachimt wrote: yesterday she got up 7 roosters, she may have pointed some but in the thick cover i couldnt see her or hear her bell so didnt shoot the bird not knowing if she pointed. The others she tracked and flushed so I didnt shoot those either. Any advice on these late season runners!!
Perhaps her 'Bell' is moving the birds ?

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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:12 am

RayGubernat wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Ray and Trekmoor,

So I'm understanding that you both believe an air scenting pointing dog will hold more birds than a dog that tracks. Now I'm going to be specific, will that still work in cattails? And what's to stop a bird from flushing or running with the slasher type?

I'm just trying to better understand the mechanics of a pointer on wild pheasants.
I have seen it a few times close up...with the bird staring right at the dog, almost ready to take flight...but not quite....

It almost looks like the dog "surprised" the bird. Fowl are not known for giant intellects(hence the term bird brain), so my best guess is that the dog's sudden appearance short circuited the bird's decision process and caused it to freeze, somewhere between running off and flying.

If anyone has a better answer, go for it.

RayG
Ray you are correct birds are not intellectual giants (Bird Brain). However they are extremely aware of there environment and feel and hear and even see the presence of the dog and handler long be for the ever take wing. The "surprise" is more about not knowing how to handle the pressure of the hunting party, not the surprise that you and I might feel if some one jumped out and said "Boo". One can see that on opening day versus late season hunting an how tactics must change to be successful hunting.
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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:22 am

Now are these shoot to kill trials and is retrieving required?[/quote]

American Field trials are blank gun only. No retrieve is required in any American Field trial, so no birds are killed for the dogs in these trials.

RayG[/quote]

Well thanks for your input. That would not be of interest to me. I rode horseback in many trials back when I was trying decide what breed and style of dog I was interested in.
With the lack of retrieving talent not being shown off in pointing dog trials it was an easy pick to decide of Field bred Springers as the way to go for me.
Retrievers held much interest to be but at the time was interested in a dog that could the job both "before the shot and after the shot", which is what the FB Springer is capable of.
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Re: Running birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:28 am

I think that it depends on the cover the bird is in as to how the bird reacts to danger. I believe that a bird in heavy cover knows his best option is to freeze and let danger pass. A bird in sparse cover better run or fly or it's dead. I think that a fast dog catches them by total surprise and the bird's first reaction is to freeze. If the danger doesn't get closer, it may stay there, or it may quietly sneak off, depending on which reacton it has learned will save it's life. A slow dog, the sound of bells, beepers, talking, whistles, give the birds time to make a decision and that decision with pheasant will many times be to run. A fast dog surprises them and freezes them.

Nothing scientific here, it's just what I THINK I have observed over a life time of chasing them.
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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:35 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Nothing scientific here, it's just what I THINK I have observed over a life time of chasing them.
Give me real world experience over scientific study anytime. Thanks.

It is not so much that point and creep does not work, it is just so boring.

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Re: Running birds

Post by DonF » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:51 am

gundogguy wrote:Now are these shoot to kill trials and is retrieving required?
American Field trials are blank gun only. No retrieve is required in any American Field trial, so no birds are killed for the dogs in these trials.

RayG[/quote]

Well thanks for your input. That would not be of interest to me. I rode horseback in many trials back when I was trying decide what breed and style of dog I was interested in.
With the lack of retrieving talent not being shown off in pointing dog trials it was an easy pick to decide of Field bred Springers as the way to go for me.
Retrievers held much interest to be but at the time was interested in a dog that could the job both "before the shot and after the shot", which is what the FB Springer is capable of.[/quote]

Because dog's don't retrieve in AF trials does not meant they have no retrieving talent. If they don't retrieve it's mostly because you didn't teach them to. There are dog's nthat have no use for retrieving for sure.
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Tooling
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Re: Running birds

Post by Tooling » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:45 pm

I love this thread

Pup & I hunted SD this yr..we had lots of ups & downs and hunted many many areas covering much of the state which also afforded several types of cover and several scenarios. We were there for 2 weeks. It was really cool to see my dog hunt differently dependent upon cover and being my first time hunting there it was so special that pup and I just dove right on into it both of us learning..wife and I left the group back East and went solo..deliberately. With very severe weather blowing in we just did not care and went anyway..we hunted the evening of our arrival and as the sun started to fade the weather started blowing in - we were thrilled and nothing, I mean nothing was going to stop us.

On the second to last day I decided to be less nomadic and focus on a WPA - we were in late season conditions so birds were bunched up and in very thick cover..the area we focused on had oceans upon oceans of cat-tails.

What was so satisfying was watching my dog work to figure it out..all this talk about scent pointing and then tracking has me laughing a little bit..not b/c there is no merit in everything being said but b/c everything said is so true but there is another variable that is QUITE the wild card and that is Pheasants everywhere in very large numbers. All in groups or “coveys” if you will..

Dog goes on point and as you approach he softens..whether you give him the cue or not he heads in nose in the air..goes on point again..softens..starts tracking and then just disappears in oceans of cat-tails with about a buzillion bird tracks going into this cover EVERYWHERE…lol - talk about sensory overload for the dog!!

W/out writing a book about my last 2 days hunting the same area in SD..I’ll just share this..the 1st day of these last 2 we limited out over the span of about 5 hours…we saw a lot of birds and worked our tails off to achieve that limit. I watched my dog go from aggressive and bold which is his nature and then into sensory overload which led to recklessness on his part and then back into methodical and cautious before the day was done..the next day we went to the same area..I did nothing different but my dog sure did..we limited in exactly 42 minutes never shooting a double out of the many opportunities I had to do so. Also to clarify how well pup did..my shooting was on..I think I missed 4 shots over the span of 9 days of hunting, I have those 4 shells along w/22 in another bag..that’s not me bragging about my shooting skills..that’s me expressing how that element of the hunt was not even part of the equation. And so far as pointing dogs not fetching w/the best of them - we lost not one single bird and I’m talking unmarked birds having gone down 50+ yards in…some of the retrieves took longer than others and some of them took my waving toward and sending pup back in but still..not a SINGLE bird unrecovered..some of them coming back with their heads up…ok, maybe this is a bit of a brag : )

I love how all of the things being said here ring so true but I think Trekmoor put it best..”I don’t know”…lol..that sure makes me feel a whole lot better.

..anybody hacking on their dog is really cheating themselves out of the absolute essence of watching a bird dog learn and to figure it out and boy when they do…wow..I mean just wow!!

I love this thread…that is one wily a$$ bird and man what a rush it is to chase them w/a good dog!!

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Re: Running birds

Post by gundogguy » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:23 pm

Quote DonF
Because dog's don't retrieve in AF trials does not meant they have no retrieving talent. If they don't retrieve it's mostly because you didn't teach them to. There are dog's nthat have no use for retrieving for sure.[/quote]

As I stated I was in the market for my first sporting dog. I attended numerous trials of all the sporting breeds i could find. Pointing dogs Retriever dogs and Spaniel dogs. Retrieving the bird after it has been produced is extremely important to the Spaniel culture. In fact it is the only you can make champion or be consider a class shooting spaniel, Find birds, Flush birds make retrieves with manners is the mantra.
This thread caught my eye because of the title,. Running Birds.. i thought maybe some thing had changed in the pointing dog field trial world. As a Spanieler now for some 30 years taking the running bird properly throughout the course of hunt is the hallmark of a good hunting spaniel. And it is the surest way to Spaniel field trial success, taking runners properly. In our world a dog can not be judged unless it makes a retrieve, no retrieve no judgement, dogs have to be counseled on how to take the running bird and produce it within gun range.
I not here trying to buck traditions or cultures, I could very well be...I'm in the wrong thread! Please excuse me any for confusion.
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Re: Running birds

Post by Neil » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:59 pm

I, too, have attended all the major Hunt Test/ Field Trial formats, and remain unimpressed with the level of retrieving skill required to compete. All the dogs I saw were forced fetched and only had to trot out and pick up a week flying pen bird, often in plain sight. A beagle can be force trained to retrieve.

Now when I see a dog beat the ground to a froth hunting dead, I am impressed.

The dogs on the top level Shooting Dog and All Age circuit show the same skill, applied differently, every time they are asked to relocate.

And this comes from an unbiased guy that has more spaniels than pointing dogs in his kennel.

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Re: Running birds

Post by Sharon » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:08 pm

gundogguy wrote:
Neil wrote:Gunfight,

Do a Google for American Field, I think it comes up as Village Press, and the online mag will have a schedule of trials, "pheasant" will be in the title. I think Ohio will be the closest for you, usually held in the Fall.

Very Good thank-you!
One example I found was this one "National Amateur Pheasant Shooting Dog Championship"
http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/ ... ip/1288177..........................
quote]
..............................

Or come to Ontario AF Region 13 in the fall trials.:)
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DonF
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Re: Running birds

Post by DonF » Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:41 pm

I have watched to many AKC callbacks for retrieving to be impressed. Seem's there's always one or two dog's that do a great job and the rest are duffer's. I think it has more to do with the pressure put on the dog to remain steady and it does any lack of talent from the dog. In AKC the retrieve is a pass or fail thing, doesn't encourage much effort from the trainer. First trial I ever went to for Springer's was long ago. 2X Nat Ch Dewfield Brickclose Flint was in that trial. So was Misty Muffet. Long time ago! Those dog's marked and retrieved extremely well. But because that trait doesn't receive the attention is should, doesn't mean the dog hasn't got it in it. The worst retriever's I've ever had are both E. Setter's. They they mark very well but the retrieve itself leaves a lot to be desired. i know one dog out of this bloodline that has never retrieved the first bird, 8 yrs old and won't retrieve. I don't think that means it won't, I think the owner simply ignored it to long and now it's 8 and won't do it. Most any dog, even mixed breed's can be taught to retrieve.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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