Gun Dog Forum

I have me a 4 month old lab, and I realize I can't exactly just hop around blind without a program of some sort. Please any advice is helpful. I was thinking Tom dokkens book but apparently there's some controversy? If you guys could explain? Thanks. I'm looking to train flushing and waterfowl. Coot duck dove quail goose. Etc.

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:I Coot duck dove quail goose. Etc.

Only 1 of those birds need s to be flushed Quail. So you will have a lot of birds to be retrieved The best sequential training program in the business is Evan Grahams Smart Works training series.
Used by more retriever amateur trainers than any other system. and Evan is great guy as well. He does workshops all over the country and he is a world class sketch artist of dog and luminary's! as well. Can not go wrong with Smart Works.

Oh yeah I know but that's most of what I hunt is quail. And dove. I hunt every "bleep" thing down here but quail and dove are the main. Waterfowl and all is a close second though. I was hoping to find something that didn't involve ff. haha apparently that's impossible.

gundogguy wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:I Coot duck dove quail goose. Etc.

Only 1 of those birds need s to be flushed Quail. So you will have a lot of birds to be retrieved The best sequential training program in the business is Evan Grahams Smart Works training series.
Used by more retriever amateur trainers than any other system. and Evan is great guy as well. He does workshops all over the country and he is a world class sketch artist of dog and luminary's! as well. Can not go wrong with Smart Works.

Very perceptive. I should have noticed that!

You don't have to do the force fetch if your dog retrieves without it. The rest of the program is still valid and that is what you are wanting. Will be interested to see how it works out and if your dog retrieves good enough for you to teach the rest of the program without it.

Haha I'm also interested in that as well. Haha. My fiances grandpa has a 4 year old lab that flushes, retrieves doubles (still sucks at triples), he's steady as heck. Only problem is lately he's been dropping the bird at my feet. Besides that. Never force fetched. He is a crazy good trainer. I'd ask his help if he could remember how he trained the dog. But I take him hunting constantly. So it works. Yes I am thinking about trying all his other techniques that don't involve ff. so I agree. Like I said I was just hoping there was a program out there that didn't involve it but no luck haha

I personally would recommend force fetch no matter if the dog delivers to hand or not. Force fetch for a retriever is more than just delivery to hand. It will teach him how to deal with pressure among a host of other things. Do not skip force fetch in my opinion.

duckn66 wrote:I personally would recommend force fetch no matter if the dog delivers to hand or not. Force fetch for a retriever is more than just delivery to hand. It will teach him how to deal with pressure among a host of other things. Do not skip force fetch in my opinion.

That is correct. You'll miss out on something very valuable if you skip FF.

EvanG

EvanG wrote:

duckn66 wrote:I personally would recommend force fetch no matter if the dog delivers to hand or not. Force fetch for a retriever is more than just delivery to hand. It will teach him how to deal with pressure among a host of other things. Do not skip force fetch in my opinion.

That is correct. You'll miss out on something very valuable if you skip FF.

EvanG

I'm sure that's true, and I can agree it's a great way to train a dog to fetch. I also do not think it is necessary. Again my fiances grandpas dog is one of the best bird dogs I've seen 1st hand, and he does everything u could ask for. He's a great hunting dog, and was never ffed. It blows my mind how everybody here thinks that the only way to train a dog to hunt is to FORCE the dog to learn. Labs already have a desire to fetch. But anyways, regardless, there's more than one way to skin a cat and my way doesn't involve forcing the dog. But I appreciate the advice and I will continue to look into it. Any advice not involving ff would be awesome. Haha.

Yuma, I think you don't understand what Force Fetching truly is, or what it involves. But instead of beat that dead horse, let me approach this a different way.... How would you teach a dog the simple command "sit?"

? It's pretty simple. With the clicker I trained him to come to my hand at first for here, then once his attention was on my hand, I started putting it by my side then lifting it up, making it a hand signal. So he sits to the hand signal and voice. He kinda sits for the whistle but I've only done that with him once.

EvanG wrote:

duckn66 wrote:I personally would recommend force fetch no matter if the dog delivers to hand or not. Force fetch for a retriever is more than just delivery to hand. It will teach him how to deal with pressure among a host of other things. Do not skip force fetch in my opinion.

That is correct. You'll miss out on something very valuable if you skip FF.

EvanG

To be honest I respect ur opinion a lot. For the record I'm not discarding it. I'm simply looking for options. And George Hickox has one heck of a method that involves the clicker. It's just more on my level.

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:

EvanG wrote:

duckn66 wrote:I personally would recommend force fetch no matter if the dog delivers to hand or not. Force fetch for a retriever is more than just delivery to hand. It will teach him how to deal with pressure among a host of other things. Do not skip force fetch in my opinion.

That is correct. You'll miss out on something very valuable if you skip FF.

EvanG

I'm sure that's true, and I can agree it's a great way to train a dog to fetch. I also do not think it is necessary. Again my fiances grandpas dog is one of the best bird dogs I've seen 1st hand, and he does everything u could ask for. He's a great hunting dog, and was never ffed. It blows my mind how everybody here thinks that the only way to train a dog to hunt is to FORCE the dog to learn. Labs already have a desire to fetch. But anyways, regardless, there's more than one way to skin a cat and my way doesn't involve forcing the dog. But I appreciate the advice and I will continue to look into it. Any advice not involving ff would be awesome. Haha.

Not true. I AM NOT A FAN OF FF FOR HUNTING DOGS. I can see why the trialers do it but I, like you, have never thought of it as the proper way to teach a natural retriever. But where I do vary from you is your idea of only positive training. I am yet to see a dog, child, or any other animal trained without discipline learn very well. An old adage is 70% positive, 30% negative seems to be the quickest way and I have to agree and also state the best way.

JMO
Ezzy

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:? It's pretty simple. With the clicker I trained him to come to my hand at first for here, then once his attention was on my hand, I started putting it by my side then lifting it up, making it a hand signal. So he sits to the hand signal and voice. He kinda sits for the whistle but I've only done that with him once.

So you never once put your hand on his rump to teach "sit?"

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:Haha I'm also interested in that as well. Haha. My fiances grandpa has a 4 year old lab that flushes, retrieves doubles (still sucks at triples), he's steady as heck. Only problem is lately he's been dropping the bird at my feet. Besides that. Never force fetched. He is a crazy good trainer. I'd ask his help if he could remember how he trained the dog. But I take him hunting constantly. So it works. Yes I am thinking about trying all his other techniques that don't involve ff. so I agree. Like I said I was just hoping there was a program out there that didn't involve it but no luck haha

The old adage applies here to dogs that you own or hunt with, "What the handler condones, the handler owns"! and "We all get the dog we deserve" Many folks have owned many a hunting dog and rely on accidental behavior every time they go to the field. With differing degrees of success.

mnaj_springer wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:? It's pretty simple. With the clicker I trained him to come to my hand at first for here, then once his attention was on my hand, I started putting it by my side then lifting it up, making it a hand signal. So he sits to the hand signal and voice. He kinda sits for the whistle but I've only done that with him once.

So you never once put your hand on his rump to teach "sit?"

I do occasionally if he doesn't sit when I give the command. Mainly when I take him out to the mall or the field to do some training

gundogguy wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:Haha I'm also interested in that as well. Haha. My fiances grandpa has a 4 year old lab that flushes, retrieves doubles (still sucks at triples), he's steady as heck. Only problem is lately he's been dropping the bird at my feet. Besides that. Never force fetched. He is a crazy good trainer. I'd ask his help if he could remember how he trained the dog. But I take him hunting constantly. So it works. Yes I am thinking about trying all his other techniques that don't involve ff. so I agree. Like I said I was just hoping there was a program out there that didn't involve it but no luck haha

The old adage applies here to dogs that you own or hunt with, "What the handler condones, the handler owns"! and "We all get the dog we deserve" Many folks have owned many a hunting dog and rely on accidental behavior every time they go to the field. With differing degrees of success.

Well honestly he'd be better, and know hand signals and anything else you can think of, but beryls (that's his name) back gave out on him shortly after the pup was a year old. Maybe a year and a half. He had all kinds of surgeries and stuff. But he got back on it when he was around 3. And I've been helping a little since then. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any "accidental" behavior going into training this dog. I'm going to see him soon I can ask him his opinion of that if you would like me to.

ezzy333 wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:

EvanG wrote:That is correct. You'll miss out on something very valuable if you skip FF.

EvanG

I'm sure that's true, and I can agree it's a great way to train a dog to fetch. I also do not think it is necessary. Again my fiances grandpas dog is one of the best bird dogs I've seen 1st hand, and he does everything u could ask for. He's a great hunting dog, and was never ffed. It blows my mind how everybody here thinks that the only way to train a dog to hunt is to FORCE the dog to learn. Labs already have a desire to fetch. But anyways, regardless, there's more than one way to skin a cat and my way doesn't involve forcing the dog. But I appreciate the advice and I will continue to look into it. Any advice not involving ff would be awesome. Haha.

Not true. I AM NOT A FAN OF FF FOR HUNTING DOGS. I can see why the trialers do it but I, like you, have never thought of it as the proper way to teach a natural retriever. But where I do vary from you is your idea of only positive training. I am yet to see a dog, child, or any other animal trained without discipline learn very well. An old adage is 70% positive, 30% negative seems to be the quickest way and I have to agree and also state the best way.

JMO
Ezzy

Now that I can agree with. And yes I agree to that 100% as well. I am thinking I can do clicker training and still incorporate that 30 negative.

The answer to this whole thread seems to be do the clicker training like you want to and see how it works out for you. You will never know till you try it and then not know much till you do it with at least 4 or 5 dogs. Then you will have a better idea of what you think. And you may want to try training a dog or two like most folks on here are suggesting. Then make up your mind. Till then it is all talk and you resisting what people are suggesting. That is how people learn and I am anxious to hear how things are going.

Ezzy

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:

gundogguy wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:Haha I'm also interested in that as well. Haha. My fiances grandpa has a 4 year old lab that flushes, retrieves doubles (still sucks at triples), he's steady as heck. Only problem is lately he's been dropping the bird at my feet. Besides that. Never force fetched. He is a crazy good trainer. I'd ask his help if he could remember how he trained the dog. But I take him hunting constantly. So it works. Yes I am thinking about trying all his other techniques that don't involve ff. so I agree. Like I said I was just hoping there was a program out there that didn't involve it but no luck haha

The old adage applies here to dogs that you own or hunt with, "What the handler condones, the handler owns"! and "We all get the dog we deserve" Many folks have owned many a hunting dog and rely on accidental behavior every time they go to the field. With differing degrees of success.

Well honestly he'd be better, and know hand signals and anything else you can think of, but beryls (that's his name) back gave out on him shortly after the pup was a year old. Maybe a year and a half. He had all kinds of surgeries and stuff. But he got back on it when he was around 3. And I've been helping a little since then. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any "accidental" behavior going into training this dog. I'm going to see him soon I can ask him his opinion of that if you would like me to.

Accidental behavior has nothing to do with what the human handler does it has to do with what the dog gives the human in the form of behavior within a specific situation.
For example a retriever never has made champion accidentally, it made champion because of force and training and the establishment of standards, in the real retriever world there is no such thing as a "natural retriever". Retrieving is Man's idea not the dog's!

You need to explain about retrieving to my son's cat and also to millions of pups that retrieve naturally from the time they can walk till they die. The only part of retrieving that isn't natural is giving the bird to you.

Ezzy

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:I have me a 4 month old lab, and I realize I can't exactly just hop around blind without a program of some sort. Please any advice is helpful. I was thinking Tom dokkens book but apparently there's some controversy? If you guys could explain? Thanks. I'm looking to train flushing and waterfowl. Coot duck dove quail goose. Etc.

Just for your information the EvanG that is posting has one of the best if not thy best best Retriever training programs in the Country, when programs are mentioned it Graham, Lardy or Stawski, 80% of the time. I would weigh that in, when dealing with people's opinions on the internet.

gundogguy wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:

gundogguy wrote: The old adage applies here to dogs that you own or hunt with, "What the handler condones, the handler owns"! and "We all get the dog we deserve" Many folks have owned many a hunting dog and rely on accidental behavior every time they go to the field. With differing degrees of success.

Well honestly he'd be better, and know hand signals and anything else you can think of, but beryls (that's his name) back gave out on him shortly after the pup was a year old. Maybe a year and a half. He had all kinds of surgeries and stuff. But he got back on it when he was around 3. And I've been helping a little since then. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any "accidental" behavior going into training this dog. I'm going to see him soon I can ask him his opinion of that if you would like me to.

Accidental behavior has nothing to do with what the human handler does it has to do with what the dog gives the human in the form of behavior within a specific situation.
For example a retriever never has made champion accidentally, it made champion because of force and training and the establishment of standards, in the real retriever world there is no such thing as a "natural retriever". Retrieving is Man's idea not the dog's!

Huh. I like your last statement. That's interesting. Well that I can certainly believe. Seems the odds are stacked against me in so far as me training a dog to hunt using the clicker as the main method of training. The dog will at least be obedient till then haha.

nikegundog wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote:I have me a 4 month old lab, and I realize I can't exactly just hop around blind without a program of some sort. Please any advice is helpful. I was thinking Tom dokkens book but apparently there's some controversy? If you guys could explain? Thanks. I'm looking to train flushing and waterfowl. Coot duck dove quail goose. Etc.

Just for your information the EvanG that is posting has one of the best if not thy best best Retriever training programs in the Country, when programs are mentioned it Graham, Lardy or Stawski, 80% of the time. I would weigh that in, when dealing with people's opinions on the internet.

I just realized that earlier and addressed it. Haha I didn't know it was actually Evan graham. I respect his opinion very much. And it may come down to force fetching I just hope I don't have to that's all.

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote: I just realized that earlier and addressed it. Haha I didn't know it was actually Evan graham. I respect his opinion very much. And it may come down to force fetching I just hope I don't have to that's all.

I would like to be clear on this. You don't have to FF a Gundog. I Strongly suggest it because I'm acutely aware of the benefits of the process. I didn't FF my first two Labradors back in the 1970's, and they were fine Gundogs and successful Qualified All-age field trial competitors.

So, why would I have FF'd them? Because I know now what I didn't know then. Like many dog people who think they understand it and what it takes to get it done properly, along with knowing what it's for, I've since come to know better... Much better. In this, the information age, it seems amazing to me sometimes to see so many dog people stuck in that same information gap. Part of the problem lies in a small devoted anti-FF demographic who continue to circulate outdated misinformation about it. Another is that even in some of the better, more current programs that show good techniques for doing the work, the teachers do little or nothing to explain its scope and purpose. If you don't have a good grasp of your goals it's tough measure your progress and judge your results.

You surely can train a decent Gundog without FF. You won't ever know how good your dog may have been if you don't. It's up to each owner how much that matters. My first two dogs, had they been properly FF'd? Both would very likely been field champions. Because it would have covered over some deficit in them? No. Because the added stability and dependability it gives them would have allowed them to show how good they really were. I didn't know that back then. Knowing it now just means I'll never deprive another dog of the benefits. Best of luck, whatever you choose.

EvanG

EvanG wrote:

Yuma.Az.Hunter wrote: I just realized that earlier and addressed it. Haha I didn't know it was actually Evan graham. I respect his opinion very much. And it may come down to force fetching I just hope I don't have to that's all.

I would like to be clear on this. You don't have to FF a Gundog. I Strongly suggest it because I'm acutely aware of the benefits of the process. I didn't FF my first two Labradors back in the 1970's, and they were fine Gundogs and successful Qualified All-age field trial competitors.

So, why would I have FF'd them? Because I know now what I didn't know then. Like many dog people who think they understand it and what it takes to get it done properly, along with knowing what it's for, I've since come to know better... Much better. In this, the information age, it seems amazing to me sometimes to see so many dog people stuck in that same information gap. Part of the problem lies in a small devoted anti-FF demographic who continue to circulate outdated misinformation about it. Another is that even in some of the better, more current programs that show good techniques for doing the work, the teachers do little or nothing to explain its scope and purpose. If you don't have a good grasp of your goals it's tough measure your progress and judge your results.

You surely can train a decent Gundog without FF. You won't ever know how good your dog may have been if you don't. It's up to each owner how much that matters. My first two dogs, had they been properly FF'd? Both would very likely been field champions. Because it would have covered over some deficit in them? No. Because the added stability and dependability it gives them would have allowed them to show how good they really were. I didn't know that back then. Knowing it now just means I'll never deprive another dog of the benefits. Best of luck, whatever you choose.

EvanG

I truly appreciate your time mr graham! Thank you for the advice. And honestly I am likely going to end up force fetching the dog. While I don't quite agree with the general principal of FORCE fetching, i agree discipline is likely the only and best way to basically guarantee consistent results. I'm likely to switch because idk if clicker training is going to pan out. I'm still definitely on the fence though unfortunately. I love the idea of having a world class hunting dog, just not crazy about the path.

Honestly I'd never even heard mention of ff till I joined this forum. It's not something anybody in my town has heard of, or implemented so forgive me for being skeptical. I guess I can watch another YouTube video of it or something. But as of right now money is too tight to purchase anything other than dog food and electricity. Haha so I might put it off till the next dog. But again, thank you for your input. You are very popular on here!!

Anybody have some good ideas on books?

This isn't the best quarter & flush drill, but it's okay and you can watch it on You Tube. It's the same principle as the better ones. Rick Stawski (Fowl Dawgs author) has a better one on one of his DVDs, and like mine, he uses real birds. That's really a better way to go. But the basic dynamics are like the drill on this little video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUxastw9w7E

On my DVD, titled In the Field, is a more detailed and easy to follow drill for it, complete with shooting over the dog.

EvanG

Zeta's 1st quartering session.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPIs9sEkk5Y



a year later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrkoRxDk9xQ