hunting ...near or far ....what about standing still??

[dottie]

Novice ..only a bird hunter 3 years now....first dog a Springer....hunted very close 20/30 yards ....new dog a Brittany hunts 100/ 200 yards away ......i would like him closer and have been trying lots of different things to alter his style/range Recently i tried just standing in one spot....he seemed to stay closer....in fact he seemed to just hunt the area around me.....this is a wooded area ....not sure what he would do in an open field....BUT IS THIS ....just my imagination....or is it possible to bring him in ....just by standing still.
Any other techniques to reduce his range ......i will try anything.....

[Neil]

To answer your question and not editorilize about why you did not just get another flushing dog if you think 100 yards is too far; yes moving slowly, changing direction, even going back they way you came, while calling him to you will all restrict his range. Work really hard on a prompt recall, and just keep calling him all the way back to you as soon as he hits your limit.

I will let someone else tell you how many birds you are missing, and the dog will tell you how annoying you are.

[RayGubernat]

it would seem that your dog wants to be with you. Might not seem that way to you right now, but the fact that the dog hangs in there with you when you are standing still says just that to me. That is a good thing. You can do stuff with that.

Being as silent a you can will tend to keep a dog closer, especially in cover where they cannot see you.
Changing direction will tend to keep a dog paying attention to you and again, if the cover is thick, the dog needs to be closer to do that.

Hiding and waiting for the dog to come all the way back and find you can also shorten a young dog right up. They won't want to "lose' you again. for a while.

Don't overdo this stuff or the dog could tend to get "sticky". You want the dog to search ndependently, but with one eye on you, where you are and where you are going.

There is an e-collar technique called "bending". You install a turn command in the yard with a checkcord and overlay the e-collar so the dog knows that failure to turn on command will result in a light zap. Basically you let the dog run out in the field as far as you are comfortable, and when you are at your comfort limit, you issue that turn command and have the dog go laterally instead of straight out. if it does not turn you tickle it with the e-collar until it does turn. If you have done your job training in the yard, the dog will turn. If you are consistent with your training, turning the dog at the same ranges in the same kind of terrain, eventually the dog will learn your comfort range and turn on its own...more or less.


The last thing I will tell you is that a bird dog's job is to go and find birds for you , then to point them and hold them until you get there. Lots of folks get upset with dogs that range out of shotgun range...but it is a pointing dog, not a flushing dog. If the dog will hold point(as it is supposed to) until you flush the bird, the farther away from you it searches, the more birds it will find for you. I am a lazy hunter. I would much rather that the dog go her and then there and then back again, checking out all of the available cover and all of the likely bird spots...so I don';t have to walk over there myself. Besides, the dog is the one with the nose. I am the one carrying the gun.

As I said, lots of folks are uncomfortable with their dogs being "out there" a ways. But if the dog finds birds and waits for you and if not, comes back for you...it is YOU who may need to get more comfortable with how the dog hunts. That is kinda what pointy dogs do and how they do it.

FWIW, I have hunted behind lunatic pointers all my life, and these dogs will fade out of sight in 30 seconds or less. 200 yards is NOTHING to most of my dogs. A quarter to a half mile is more typical. Guess what? I ain't lost one yet and it has been over fifty years. If they like you they will stay with you and they will come back for you. It is hard for folks to believe, but I swear to God...it really does work that way. They WANT to hunt with us...heaven knows why...but they do.

You will have some anxious moments...to be sure... I certainly have.... But somewhere along the way, the dog will learn to trust you and you will learn to trust the dog. Then it gets really good.

There is something special about sending your dog out and watching it go over a hill and out of sight. You will get this knot in the pit of your gut and the thought will pop into your head: "Will I ever see that little SOB again?' But you sent the dog and now you have to trust the dog.

I tell you this...there are very few sweeter sights or more satisfying feelings in this world than when you top that hill, and there on the back side, is the dog you trusted and sent out...standing there...stacked up on point...just waiting for YOU. ALL FOR YOU! Without the faith and trust to send the dog over the hill, you will never get to see that wonderful sight and feel that wonderful feeling.


RayG

[Higgins]

Hello Dottie,

I don't consider you a novice. Anyone who can read a dog and handle accordingly, is more talented than your average trainer.

Here is a video I did recently. http://vimeo.com/104148324 This is handling without training. Don't need to train what they were born knowing. It's amazing, but it IS this simple with a dog and owner that have build a relationship based on mutual trust.

Handling and steadiness are not the goal of training if you train the way a dog thinks. They are a byproduct.

Wait till you see the backlash from this post. It will be entertaining!


Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com
___________________________
Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[blanked]

My experience is a silent hunter encourages dogs to range further out. Someone that is always giving the dog commands keeps them close. The dog is looking at you for directions

[RayGubernat]

My experience is a silent hunter encourages dogs to range further out. Someone that is always giving the dog commands keeps them close. The dog is looking at you for directions

I don't give my dogs a lot of commands in the field as a rule. I try to let them do what they do. I try to let the dogs hunt independently with as little interference as I can. I figure they are the ones with the nose and the hunting instincts, so it is best to let them use what God and the breeder put in there. I figure the less I interfere with the dog/bird thing...the better it will work out. The only commands I typically use in the field are here and whoa. Sooooo, my experience has been pretty much the opposite of yours.

If I let my dog know where I am, the dog tends to hunt bigger because it knows where I am and where I am headed. If I clam up, the dog tends to come back in to make sure I am still following.

RayG

[ezzy333]

If I let my dog know where I am, the dog tends to hunt bigger because it knows where I am and where I am headed. If I clam up, the dog tends to come back in to make sure I am still following.

RayG

My experience also. I think in most cases the dog knows where it is and where we are. Always makes me smile when we talk about a lost dog during a trial and I think it is really us that are lost.

[bonasa]

Im an advocate with just turning them loose, keeping them "out there" and going to them on point. However if I wanted to keep a pointing dog in close all the time like a flusher with a bunch of style, grace and minimal handling this is what I would do.

First dont call your dog back. Second before and after you break the dog, put the dog in many situations with A LOT of bird contacts in a very short amount of time that are very close to you. This can be accomplished naturally or artificially. A dog that hunts for/with you and wants to find birds will be in contact with you. Trying to work on range this way will do it naturally. Used incorrectly hacking, bending and collar use will take independence and autonomy away from the animal and the result likely won't be what you want.

Best

... Someone that is always giving the dog commands keeps them close...

And neurotic

[Neil]

Im an advocate with just turning them loose, keeping them "out there" and going to them on point. However if I wanted to keep a pointing dog in close all the time like a flusher with a bunch of style, grace and minimal handling this is what I would do.

First dont call your dog back. Second before and after you break the dog, put the dog in many situations with A LOT of bird contacts in a very short amount of time that are very close to you. This can be accomplished naturally or artificially. A dog that hunts for/with you and wants to find birds will be in contact with you. Trying to work on range this way will do it naturally. Used incorrectly hacking, bending and collar use will take independence and autonomy away from the animal and the result likely won't be what you want.

Best

... Someone that is always giving the dog commands keeps them close...

And neurotic

While that may seem logical to you, have you ever tried it? I have found that the natural tendency of all well bred pointing dogs is to seek game, trying to rein them in with your method only works until you put them down where birds are scarce, then they are going to try to find them.

As far as making the neurotic, that a given. It is like teaching a pig to sing.

[bonasa]

Neil, I have accomplished close ranging pointers by being silent and working them in areas inundated by birds, yes both natural and artificial. You are right , the well developed dog should hunt where the birds are, be it near or far. If you stifle their development by repeatedly running them in areas thick with jonny house quail, grouse broods or flight bird woodcock and skip the seeking new cover phase. If they never know their wheels are there, then they won't know to use them.

[greg jacobs]

I whistle trained for change direction come about. 1 tweet. Recall multiple tweets. I then overlayed the tone on the alpha. The alpha tone works great she can always hear it and it's quiet out in the field. I let her hunt the way she wants as long as she is in sight. When she goes over the ridge I recall her at 300-350yds. The pup seems OK with the compromise. I've heard the term, bred for the collar. I'm not sure that's good for everyone. But seems where a lot of the breeders have gone.

[RyanDoolittle]

My experience is a silent hunter encourages dogs to range further out. Someone that is always giving the dog commands keeps them close. The dog is looking at you for directions

That varies with the dog. Some dogs run big and keep an eye on you from a distance. Some run big but feel the need to check back. Singing will help keep a dog out there and not have to come back in.

I agree with you, less commands the better.

[RyanDoolittle]

I whistle trained for change direction come about. 1 tweet. Recall multiple tweets. I then overlayed the tone on the alpha. The alpha tone works great she can always hear it and it's quiet out in the field. I let her hunt the way she wants as long as she is in sight. When she goes over the ridge I recall her at 300-350yds. The pup seems OK with the compromise. I've heard the term, bred for the collar. I'm not sure that's good for everyone. But seems where a lot of the breeders have gone.

An old member on here used to share an experience he had at his first trial. Its been a fee years but it webt something like this. The member whistle trained his dog and it didnt take long for the other guy to figure that out and start blasting his whistle which messed with the members dog.

So for a hunting dog a whistle may be good if thats your thing but I dont see the need to whistle train your pointer like a lab.

[RayGubernat]

I will say this...

Some dogs are bred to hunt closer, some are bred to hunt farther out.

Some dogs are bred to look for direction from their human partner and hunt in close cooperation with them, some are bred to hunt independently.

A lot depends on just what kind of hunting each person does and what kind of performance each person is ultimately comfortable with.

You can bring in a big running dog. It may be a struggle(depending on just how independently the dog is bred, but it can be done... to an extent. The flip side of this is that you can almost never push out a truly close working dog because it is hard wired to stay close. It NEEDS to stay close.

More often than not, a balance is struck somewhere in between.

RayG

[DudeRN]

I have good luck with my Britt by calling to her, telling her "too far, too far!" and calling her back to me. when she comes back, I direct her towards a stand of brush or whatever cover is nearby, and she goes to work. through repetition she has figured it out.

[DonF]

I think you said that your dog hangs out between 100 and 200 yds? Nothing wrong with that. You also said the dog will go farther when you walk? If so, your pushing your dog. Slow down, your dog sound's like it's doing it right. I suspect that if you did stop and stand still, your dog might quit going. probably keep hunting but not taking off. Your dog sound's like it's doing it right and you are uncomfortable with it. Relax and enjoy it! Quite a bit of difference in what a flusher can get away with and what a pointer can get away with regarding range. Your dog sound's like it's doing it right!

At this point in my life 100-200 yds is just right!