First day on birds

[BoBoKennels]

I took my 16 week old English Pointer out today and put him on birds for the first time. He did very well with lock winged birds and equally as well with the clipped wing quail. He showed no shyness to any gunfire from a .22, 410, 20 GA, or 12 GA at ranges from 75 to 0 yards. So far so good, but next I put some birds out for him to try to find and ran into some issues. The first thing is he wanted to stop and pee every 2-3 minutes. Even if he didn't have urine coming out he still went into the peeing stance. Has anyone else seen this behavior? Anything I'm doing to cause it? Second, he seemed to want to either stay behind me or stay under my feet all the time. I couldn't seem to get him out in front running. Any advice would be appreciated since this is my first pointer.

[evilstepdad]

First did you shoot with all those guns the same day and was this his introduction to gunfire? It almost sounds like something did bother him but you watching him as you did would give you a better idea than I would have. sounds like something bothered him and without knowing every detail I would say to much gunfire in one day.

There are a lot of folks on here with a lot of knowledge and me not so much so anything I say is more guessing at this point but ever since my brother shot off his nailgun in the house when he was doing some work for us our little dog has been way different as she used to search out and was very outgoing and now, not so much. By little I mean a yapper not a young hunting dog.

[jOKER]

Needs to be in the field more just running around. No birds unless they are wild. Let him have fun no whistle, just let him go.

Joker

[mnaj_springer]

Relax, he's a puppy that's up to puppy antics. Next, if you want him to explore more then just shut your mouth and stand still. He'll get bored and start running out.

[BoBoKennels]

Evilstepdad: The guns were all in one day. I have opted for the George Hicox training technique and my dog and I will be taking a course with him in April. I started wit .22 at 75yd, then 50 then 25 and then 0 yards. I was throwing out clipped wing birds and my son was doing the shooting, that way I could closely watch the dog. My dog never missed a beat with the gun fire, didn't act like he even heard it. We repeated with 410, 20GA and 12 GA. He was actually doing the behavior with acting like he was peeing before any shooting. I did take him the next day and just put some birds out. It took a little bit to get him out looking but once he did he acted like he was on steroids looking for birds and did a great job flushing them out. The "peeing" behavior was still there but much less frequent.

I appreciate the advice and at this point I think the key is just sitting back and letting him get bored. I'm guessing that once he figures it out he'll be much more eager to get out there and find birds once he gets a little more experience and learns that there are birds to go find. I think that one problem is that he is an outside dog and I had him in a 10x10 kennel during the day. I live in the country so I have since let him just run free and I think that has helped some too.

Thanks again for the tips

[Sharon]

He's 16 weeks - sl o w down. Let him be a pup and pee at his pleasure...agree with ES that the excessive gun use ( all those guns in one day?) probably did make him nervous = more peeing.

[Sharon]

Needs to be in the field more just running around. No birds unless they are wild. Let him have fun no whistle, just let him go.

Joker

Welcome to the forum.

Many of us have NO wild birds available for training. Pigeons do the job just fine.

[birddogger]

He is a baby with the attention span of a nat. Nothing wrong with intro to birds but you should mostly just be bonding with and socializing him at this point. As they say, just let him be a puppy. About the only training you need to concentrate on is some obedience [recall] and manners.

Good luck
Charlie

[bagofdonuts]

Not at all unusual for pup that young to stick by your side. Try fun runs in short grass/easy stuff, pasture works good(especially if there's larks he can chase). Do lots of it, learn all you can about the pup (is he bold when seeing something new, how does he hold his tail, are his ears pricked up, can you tell when he's tired). These should be short and fun for pup and chance for you to get to know his traits, not training sessions. He will run more boldly and learn to trust you. Take it easy on the gunfire, there's no rush to condition him to it now. I don't know the Hickox method but I would never introduce birds and gun fire in the same session. I'd back up, make sure he's crazy about birds and very bold around them before reintroducing gunfire.

[rinker]

I know that it is exciting having a puppy and it's very tempting to want to do everything at one time, but I think that you need to slow down. At this point the puppy needs a lot of time running, learning to go with you, learning how to cross a creek, learning how to get through a wire farm fence, experiencing all of the sights and smells that are out there, etc... I have E Pointers and at this age I take them out to the type of cover that we will later be hunting/training in and walk with them, let them run and explore. At some point I will take a couple of pigeons and some point during the run, I will call to the puppy, get his attention, and toss the pigeon. When the puppy is running as hard as he can chasing the pigeon, I point a blank pistol in the opposite direction and fire it one time. I would do this a maximum of two times per day. My puppies have chased a couple of hundred pigeons and heard the blank pistol a couple of hundred times before I begin to think about a shotgun.

As to the constant urination, I think that is a nervous behaviour. Keep running the puppy, ignore the urination and I think he will quit it on his own.

[FlyingDutchman]

Take this with a grain of salt as I have limited upland bird dog training experience, but I have read quite a bit and watched the George Hickox video series.
GH recommends putting a puppy on lock wing/flightless pigeons between 8-12 weeks as this is their imprinting stage and as the OP would probably note himself, GH also recommends the gun intro. to happen with the birds.

I'm sure many of you know this and a lot more, but I thought I'd just chip this in in case it stimulates conversation.

cheers

[ezzy333]

I have told people many times that they don't have a bird dog puppy but it is just a pup till it is old enough to find a bird and chase it. Not a bad idea to introduce to a pigeon when little but it isn't really necessary. What is necessary is for the pup to be socialized in everyway possible and also be taken for field walks while you are keeping your mouth shut. The pup will tell you when it is ready for birds guns and formal training but you need to know that may not happen till the pup is 6 to 12 months old.

[Trekmoor]

I am in agreement with those who think the gunfire may, at least partially, have caused the pup to behave as it did. I have no idea about "Training Programmes" but I think I'd let the pup hunt it's little heart out for birds before re-introducing any gunfire.

Bill T.

[cjhills]

Probably the only sure way to ruin a good dog is to let him run free. When he learns to self hunt he will be basically useless. If he does not get hit by a car or shot by a irate neighbor who catches him chasing deer...................Cj

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Probably the only sure way to ruin a good dog is to let him run free. When he learns to self hunt he will be basically useless. If he does not get hit by a car or shot by a irate neighbor who catches him chasing deer...................Cj

Looking at all your comments over the years, I know you are a good dog man but respectfully disagree with your comment above.

[cjhills]

Probably the only sure way to ruin a good dog is to let him run free. When he learns to self hunt he will be basically useless. If he does not get hit by a car or shot by a irate neighbor who catches him chasing deer...................Cj

Looking at all your comments over the years, I know you are a good dog man but respectfully disagree with your comment above.

Feel free. that is what the forum is about.
I may have misunderstood. Does he mean run free with on walks with the owner or run free and hunt by by himself? That was my interpretation. Dogs do not learn much that is good on their own................Cj

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Probably the only sure way to ruin a good dog is to let him run free. When he learns to self hunt he will be basically useless. If he does not get hit by a car or shot by a irate neighbor who catches him chasing deer...................Cj

Looking at all your comments over the years, I know you are a good dog man but respectfully disagree with your comment above.

Feel free. that is what the forum is about.
I may have misunderstood. Does he mean run free with on walks with the owner or run free and hunt by by himself? That was my interpretation. Dogs do not learn much that is good on their own................Cj

I think you may be right about the misunderstanding. To let your dog run free everywhere is a recipe for disaster. My dogs live in a 1 acre fenced yard with concrete footers around the base of the fencing. I would never let them just run free. When I free run my dogs I put them down at least a mile from any paved road. I run on BLM, State Trust and Ranches that have given me permission. I have only had a few "wild child's" over the years and checkcord and ecollar training fixed that. I believe proper socialization and bonding with the owner will solve most of the "go with you" issues. I want my guys to range but keep track if where I am. I can find the birds that are within 25 yards of me. I don't need a dog that hunts too close.

[Sharon]

[
..................................... To let your dog run free everywhere is a recipe for disaster. My dogs live in a 1 acre fenced yard with concrete footers around the base of the fencing. I would never let them just run free. When I free run my dogs I put them down at least a mile from any paved road. I run on BLM, State Trust and Ranches that have given me permission. I have only had a few "wild child's" over the years and checkcord and ecollar training fixed that. I believe proper socialization and bonding with the owner will solve most of the "go with you" issues. I want my guys to range but keep track of where I am. I can find the birds that are within 25 yards of me. I don't need a dog that hunts too close.

Exactly.

[markj]

Let pup be a pup, Old Delmar said to happy time the pups but dont train until 1 year of age. Buy the book, read it and learn how to train like a real dog man. Continue as you are and you may mess that pup up. Do not let it catch even 1 bird. Let the gun work be for awhile.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Let pup be a pup, Old Delmar said to happy time the pups but dont train until 1 year of age. Buy the book, read it and learn how to train like a real dog man. Continue as you are and you may mess that pup up. Do not let it catch even 1 bird. Let the gun work be for awhile.

Mark, I agree with almost everything you just said. I am also a desiple of Delmar. They don't get any better than him. One thing I do is let the pup catch his first pigeon. It helps his prey drive when they around six months old. That should be the only time you let them have the bird unless you are shooting it for them in a training situation. That approach comes from the "West / Gibbons" method. Some pups that show high prey drive may not need it.

[nevermind]

OP... That's a young pup. I must be missing something as I'm not a trainer, but why the push to start these pups so early? Is it a culling thing for Trainers? Introducing a pup to birds for prey drive? I would be disappointed if I paid money for a pup from a reputable breeder and the pup had to be enticed to go after a bird.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

OP... That's a young pup. I must be missing something as I'm not a trainer, but why the push to start these pups so early? Is it a culling thing for Trainers? Introducing a pup to birds for prey drive? I would be disappointed if I paid money for a pup from a reputable breeder and the pup had to be enticed to go after a bird.

Who on this thread suggested that you start training at 16 weeks old on birds?

[FlyingDutchman]

Who on this thread suggested that you start training at 16 weeks old on birds?

from what I've read, a bunch of folks (pro trainers,George Hickox among others) recommend an introduction at about 12 weeks...

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Who on this thread suggested that you start training at 16 weeks old on birds?

from what I've read, a bunch of folks (pro trainers,George Hickox among others) recommend an introduction at about 12 weeks...

OK, that may be true but this is not "pressure", its fun for the pup. No force is involved, its just imprinting. At three or four years old, you don't teach your child the rules of baseball, but you incourage them to throw a wiffel ball or swing a plastic bat.

[markj]

from what I've read, a bunch of folks (pro trainers,George Hickox among others) recommend an introduction at about 12 weeks...

You can introduce them to birds at a very early age if it is done right. I put a dozen quail in a bird cage, sit it on the ground. place pups down wind and watch them closely. No harm can be done to them in this fashion and you get a good idea on which one has a nose altho I have not watched any not want to get at them quails. Kind of like smelling the steak and not being able to get the fork into it. Makes them real bird crazy IMHO. I don't shoot around a pup ever. I wait till they are about 8 months or so, let them smell the bird cage for a week, then go into the training field, toss one so it goes off in flight, pup should be after it running, then pop it with the 410 and drop that quail, my dogs fetched the bird to me. Was a lot of fun and I didn't do it more than 3 times each pup. Time hunting season came around, I had me some fine dogs and I usually never lose a wounded bird. Living out in the country also helps, my dogs run up and down the hills keeps them fit and trim, hard hunters that will out hunt a guy every time out and they do it for weeks on end.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

from what I've read, a bunch of folks (pro trainers,George Hickox among others) recommend an introduction at about 12 weeks...

You can introduce them to birds at a very early age if it is done right. I put a dozen quail in a bird cage, sit it on the ground. place pups down wind and watch them closely. No harm can be done to them in this fashion and you get a good idea on which one has a nose altho I have not watched any not want to get at them quails. Kind of like smelling the steak and not being able to get the fork into it. Makes them real bird crazy IMHO. I don't shoot around a pup ever. I wait till they are about 8 months or so, let them smell the bird cage for a week, then go into the training field, toss one so it goes off in flight, pup should be after it running, then pop it with the 410 and drop that quail, my dogs fetched the bird to me. Was a lot of fun and I didn't do it more than 3 times each pup. Time hunting season came around, I had me some fine dogs and I usually never lose a wounded bird. Living out in the country also helps, my dogs run up and down the hills keeps them fit and trim, hard hunters that will out hunt a guy every time out and they do it for weeks on end.

I do that with my litters "bird in a cage" at about 7 weeks old and only do it once. I like it better than "wing on a string".

[birddogger]

from what I've read, a bunch of folks (pro trainers,George Hickox among others) recommend an introduction at about 12 weeks...

You can introduce them to birds at a very early age if it is done right. I put a dozen quail in a bird cage, sit it on the ground. place pups down wind and watch them closely. No harm can be done to them in this fashion and you get a good idea on which one has a nose altho I have not watched any not want to get at them quails. Kind of like smelling the steak and not being able to get the fork into it. Makes them real bird crazy IMHO. I don't shoot around a pup ever. I wait till they are about 8 months or so, let them smell the bird cage for a week, then go into the training field, toss one so it goes off in flight, pup should be after it running, then pop it with the 410 and drop that quail, my dogs fetched the bird to me. Was a lot of fun and I didn't do it more than 3 times each pup. Time hunting season came around, I had me some fine dogs and I usually never lose a wounded bird. Living out in the country also helps, my dogs run up and down the hills keeps them fit and trim, hard hunters that will out hunt a guy every time out and they do it for weeks on end.

I do that with my litters "bird in a cage" at about 7 weeks old and only do it once. I like it better than "wing on a string".

Yes sirs! I have always believed it is never too early to introduce birds if it is done properly.

Charlie