She won't retreive quail

[oldbeek]

My 14 month old Britt will not retrieve quail. I got hard on her for grabbing a planted bird several months ago. I have caused this. Several times she has grabbed planted birds and I have shown my displeasure out of impulse. Nothing harsh, facial expression probably says a lot. Today I shot a wild bird she wouldn't retrieve. Brought her strait back to the ff table and tried to show her how fun it is to retrieve quail with lots of praise. Got her where she would return tossed bird on the ground. SUCCESS! Two hours later got her excited with same bird. Tossed it out, say fetch and she lays down. EXASPERATING!

[Higgins]

Hello Oldbeek,

I''ve seen this before. It's easy to fix. First, here is why she is becoming sensitive with birds. You are adding pressure. The fix is to REMOVE pressure. Take a quail, pull a few wing feathers and set it up so she can chase and catch it (remember, she sees retrieving as chasing birds). Now, here is the hard part. When she has the bird, say nothing, turn your back and walk away. Be quiet and keep walking, you'll be amazed at what she does next.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[gundogguy]

Hello Oldbeek,

I''ve seen this before. It's easy to fix. First, here is why she is becoming sensitive with birds. You are adding pressure. The fix is to REMOVE pressure. Take a quail, pull a few wing feathers and set it up so she can chase and catch it (remember, she sees retrieving as chasing birds). Now, here is the hard part. When she has the bird, say nothing, turn your back and walk away. Be quiet and keep walking, you'll be amazed at what she does next.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

Excellent place to start the process of 'Unwinding" the inappropriate pressure. There is an old saying in the human world that really does apply to dogs..."distance makes the heart grow fonder" By leaving the dog and walking you are using indirect pressure, this pressure should create a desire for the dog to be you. This is a first step in the rehabilitation of dog and the transgressions it t was confronted with.
In the end you will have layered many positives behaviors over this dog to regain the behavior you are looking for...a retrieve.
Best of Luck!

[jOKER]

Very young dog, I would go back to the beginning on the force break.Take your time in all the steps in force breaking. Any bad days at work or feel the tension I would not do any training at all.Is the dog soft in any othere areas? Good luck with what ever you decide.

Joker

[Nutmeg247]

Is the aversion only to quail?

How is she on pigeons or on other gamebirds??

[Neil]

Sorry if I offend, but you most likely did not properly force fetch. I have had them pick up a tin can if nothing else was readily available. I have found force fetch works if done properly.

[Nutmeg247]

Sorry if I offend, but you most likely did not properly force fetch. I have had them pick up a tin can if nothing else was readily available. I have found force fetch works if done properly.

Might there be two potential issues here, 1) a retrieve refusal, or 2) birdshyness, or at least retrieve-shyness? The o.p. said he got hard on her for pegging a bird, and believes this is a factor in the failure to retrieve. Maybe not as severe as getting spurred or shot while with a bird, but possibly causing the dog to shy off. To me, that sounds like 2). If that's the case, is force fetch by itself really going to address the aversion to retrieving a bird in that case? Seems force fetch could potentially go either way in addressing an existing aversion to a dog picking a bird up, but I don't have an answer myself.

.

[gonehuntin']

Has the dog EVER been a good retriever?

[Fun dog]

You sound like you might be just a wee bit frustrated. I can tell you from experience that there is no hiding that from the dog. Take a step back, relax, do something the dog is good at before going back to the quail. Fortunately for us, most dogs are very forgiving of our mistakes. One other thing, stop while the pup is still wanting more.

[Neil]

Sorry if I offend, but you most likely did not properly force fetch. I have had them pick up a tin can if nothing else was readily available. I have found force fetch works if done properly.

Might there be two potential issues here, 1) a retrieve refusal, or 2) birdshyness, or at least retrieve-shyness? The o.p. said he got hard on her for pegging a bird, and believes this is a factor in the failure to retrieve. Maybe not as severe as getting spurred or shot while with a bird, but possibly causing the dog to shy off. To me, that sounds like 2). If that's the case, is force fetch by itself really going to address the aversion to retrieving a bird in that case? Seems force fetch could potentially go either way in addressing an existing aversion to a dog picking a bird up, but I don't have an answer myself.

.

I have never seen that, and do not think it can happen if FF is done right. It takes away all the options.

[birddogger]

Sorry if I offend, but you most likely did not properly force fetch. I have had them pick up a tin can if nothing else was readily available. I have found force fetch works if done properly.

Might there be two potential issues here, 1) a retrieve refusal, or 2) birdshyness, or at least retrieve-shyness? The o.p. said he got hard on her for pegging a bird, and believes this is a factor in the failure to retrieve. Maybe not as severe as getting spurred or shot while with a bird, but possibly causing the dog to shy off. To me, that sounds like 2). If that's the case, is force fetch by itself really going to address the aversion to retrieving a bird in that case? Seems force fetch could potentially go either way in addressing an existing aversion to a dog picking a bird up, but I don't have an answer myself.

.

I have never seen that, and do not think it can happen if FF is done right. It takes away all the options.

+1.

Charlie

[oldbeek]

Hello Oldbeek,

I''ve seen this before. It's easy to fix. First, here is why she is becoming sensitive with birds. You are adding pressure. The fix is to REMOVE pressure. Take a quail, pull a few wing feathers and set it up so she can chase and catch it (remember, she sees retrieving as chasing birds). Now, here is the hard part. When she has the bird, say nothing, turn your back and walk away. Be quiet and keep walking, you'll be amazed at what she does next. Well she is a real big running dog and full of confidence. I planted the bird, she pointed about 20 ft off. I kicked out the bird and fired a round from my shot gun said fetch and headed straight to my truck. She went and caught the bird and I kept walking, hoping she wouldn't eat the bird or something new. When I got to the truck about 100 yards, I looked back. she wasn't there. She went off covering ground in a zig zag pattern and was 1/4 mile off before she ever looked back. I went to the bird and it was sitting there stunned but not dead. I guess she would rather hunt than retrieve.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[Higgins]

Hello Oldbeek,

You should not have shot the gun or said fetch. These are the associations she has tied to pressure. You need to get her happy about birds first, then reintroduce these association to successfully getting the bird.

[gonehuntin']

I have never seen that, and do not think it can happen if FF is done right. It takes away all the options.

+1.

Charlie

+2

[Nutmeg247]

Sorry if I offend, but you most likely did not properly force fetch. I have had them pick up a tin can if nothing else was readily available. I have found force fetch works if done properly.

Might there be two potential issues here, 1) a retrieve refusal, or 2) birdshyness, or at least retrieve-shyness? The o.p. said he got hard on her for pegging a bird, and believes this is a factor in the failure to retrieve. Maybe not as severe as getting spurred or shot while with a bird, but possibly causing the dog to shy off. To me, that sounds like 2). If that's the case, is force fetch by itself really going to address the aversion to retrieving a bird in that case? Seems force fetch could potentially go either way in addressing an existing aversion to a dog picking a bird up, but I don't have an answer myself.

.

I have never seen that, and do not think it can happen if FF is done right. It takes away all the options.

Is what is happening here that FF done correctly causes the bird to signal the release of pressure, therefore by definition the dog starts to be conditioned that picking up the bird is a positive? Sorry to be so literal, I am just slow on the uptake sometimes.

[bonasa]

Is what is happening here that FF done correctly causes the bird to signal the release of pressure, therefore by definition the dog starts to be conditioned that picking up the bird is a positive? Sorry to be so literal, I am just slow on the uptake sometimes.

There is actual or implied force the moment the retrieve command is given until it is delivered on command. The transition of the bird is the "positive" reward, ending any pressure and completing the command/action.

[oldbeek]

I will try just launching a bird with clipped flight feathers. I also will go back and read up on FF. I am not a pro and this is the first dog I have trained using FF. She hops right up on the FF table. She takes the bird from hand and carrys it until I say drop. She picks up the bird on the FF table but not with enthuseasim and delivers properly. I transfer that to the lawn and she also retrieves properly. How about some tips on FF that I may have done wrong.

[bonasa]

Could it be the beginning if gunshyness? The dog refused to retrieve then when it had the opportunity in the yard it laid down? This being after the refusal, immediately after the gunshot.

Anyway, what program that teaches FF are you using. How does the program go about transitioning from the table to the yard as this is where your issue lies (since it laid down and refused).

Why force fetch? Dog not retrieving shot birds in the first place? Gundog games? Sloppy retrieve? It sounds like you are not adding the force part at all.

Members of this board will have a better time assisting the development of your dog if we know what program you are using for force fetch. I'd like to know the dogs history in hunting birds that resulted in shot birds. How did you go about introducing the gun?

[Nutmeg247]

Is what is happening here that FF done correctly causes the bird to signal the release of pressure, therefore by definition the dog starts to be conditioned that picking up the bird is a positive? Sorry to be so literal, I am just slow on the uptake sometimes.

There is actual or implied force the moment the retrieve command is given until it is delivered on command. The transition of the bird is the "positive" reward, ending any pressure and completing the command/action.

Ok my mental wheels just caught up on this one. Thanks Bonasa and Neil and others, that was a helpful nugget for me.

[oldbeek]

First off, launched a clipped pigeon after point today. No shot, no command fetch. Just picked up launcher as dog went after pigeon. Dog dropped the pigeon and followed me to the truck. I walked back near the bird. no command. She picked it up the bird and healed with me back to the truck and delivered it to hand. She is 16 months old. She has been around blanks since 16 weeks old. She is a very aggressive confident dog in all things. I have shot wild quail over her. Some she retrieved , some she just went back to hunting. I am using the Delmar Smith book (1977) for all my training. Reading his book, I used the word take when giving the buck instead of fetch. I never got her to reach for the buck. I never set several bucks out for her to retrieve. She works on the table but not fast and perky. She fetches toys all day long sharply with tail wagging. I think I need to go back to the FF table and work with her until she is excited about fetching.

[gonehuntin']

[quote="oldbeek"

First off, launched a clipped pigeon after point today. No shot, no command fetch. Just picked up launcher as dog went after pigeon. Dog dropped the pigeon and followed me to the truck.

As soon as you did that, the dog beat you and knew it. She had been through ff and refused a command. You should have heeled her to the truck, picked up the bird, and went back and ff'd her correctly.

Some she retrieved , some she just went back to hunting.

Once again, she won, you lost. She is doing what she wants to do, not what you want her to do.

She works on the table but not fast and perky. She fetches toys all day long sharply with tail wagging. I think I need to go back to the FF table and work with her until she is excited about fetching.

She isn't supposed to look fast and perky during ff. If she does, OK, but if not, that's OK too. You are forcing a dog to perform a command against it's will; it won't be happy about it. By not doing a proper ff, you run into the exact problem you now have: you can't reinforce the command in the field, nor should you have to after ff.

Delmar is fine for the pointing part of it, but not so hot on ff. Try Evan Graham's Smart Fetch.

[oldbeek]

Update she retrieves great now! BUT! Had her registered for a NSTRA double trial prior to having the retrieve problem. Should have cancelled the entry in the trial. The planted bobs flew great. A few birds she pointed solid.(80) Broke on shot. Retrieved great. (78) Then it went down hill. Busted bird after 2 second point. Actually circled the bush. Bird flew over 200yds and dog retrieved the bird. Next bird good point and retrieve. (80) (79) Ground cover (80) Next bird, busted bird again. Disqualified. May just give her a few weeks with no bird work. Whoa yard work and lots of FF.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

EVERYTHING stops during FF. NO Hunting Or any other training.

[oldbeek]

OK, I switched programs on FF. Never was real happy with the toe pinch method. May have been doing it wrong but pup would have her paw stretched 2 ft before she felt any discomfort. Going to Evan Graham ear pinch. She is totally biddable when just touching her ear. Evan gives a lot more detail about mouthing and rolling the buck also. Thanks for the heads up. I will work on this program till I get it right. I think my biggest problem is that I just have her confused.