Shed antler training.

[spottebaum1]

So I am working with my dog to find and retrieve shed antlers. We have just started this and I am new to the sport but she is retrieving them well so far when I throw a single one. Where I have an issue is when I incorprate more than one antler in the yard she gets confused it seems. She will find and bring back one antler but will walk over to the other and not pick it up. It's like she doesn't care about it she just wants to find the other one. Any suggestions on how to remedy this? How can I get her to find multiple "bones" and bring them back. Instead of just the same one all the time?

[gundogguy]

Has your dog been through FF?

[spottebaum1]

No she hasn't. I've never had to FF any of my dogs

[gundogguy]

So I am working with my dog to find and retrieve shed antlers. We have just started this and I am new to the sport but she is retrieving them well so far when I throw a single one. Where I have an issue is when I incorprate more than one antler in the yard she gets confused it seems. She will find and bring back one antler but will walk over to the other and not pick it up. It's like she doesn't care about it she just wants to find the other one. Any suggestions on how to remedy this? How can I get her to find multiple "bones" and bring them back. Instead of just the same one all the time?

It sounds like she is "avoiding" the 2nd shed. Correct. FF eliminates the avoidance! FF training you will eliminate accidental behavior. And assure you that the retrieve will be completed.

[Yuma.Az.Hunter]

Maybe incorporate a command in getting the antlers? Try placing them around or just one. Or have u taught quartering?

[spottebaum1]

Yes when bird hunting she will quarter the field in search of feathers. Her upland hunting is top notch and now in trying to locate antler sheds in the off season this is where we stand. If I have her at a heel position and toss the antler she will go out and retrieve it but when I set out a few antlers for her to go pick up and return she only brings back the one and won't go and retrieve the others even tho she knows they are there. She will just sit by me and wait for me to re hide the one antler she brings back. She will just walk up to the others sniff at them then come back waiting for the original shed that she knows is in my back pocket. Is FF the only way to remedy this?

[spottebaum1]

And her command when looking for sheds is find the bone. So she knows what we are trying to do.

[ezzy333]

It is never the only way but is probably the fastest way. I have never been a fan of FF as anything but the last resort for a hunting dog. But everybody has their way of doing things so you can do that also.

Ezzy

[gundogguy]

Yes when bird hunting she will quarter the field in search of feathers. Her upland hunting is top notch and now in trying to locate antler sheds in the off season this is where we stand. If I have her at a heel position and toss the antler she will go out and retrieve it but when I set out a few antlers for her to go pick up and return she only brings back the one and won't go and retrieve the others even tho she knows they are there. [b]She will just sit by me and wait for me to re hide the one antler she brings back. She will just walk up to the others sniff at them then come back waiting for the original shed that she knows is in my back pocket. Is FF the only way to remedy this?[/b]

The 1st part of the sentence tells how the dog avoids retrieving the secondary shed and returns without it because she knows you have the 1st one in your back pocket. Simple avoidance! Literally all of the training folks do is to develop a dog that does stuff we humans ask it to do!. If a dog continues to failed at we ask them to do, then steps are the order to remedy that situation. Retrieving is man's idea not the dogs.
In stead of sheds try this, alternate throwing out a cold dead bird then a knobby bumper then a bumper bag,then a warm dead bird, if your dog can run that exercise cleanly, retrieving the 2nd shed thrown should be a piece of cake.
If not FF would be the most efficient way to achieve your goal.
Most folks will "avoid" FF just like their dogs "avoid" retrieving in some situations.

[crackerd]

Here's the disconnect

So I am working with my dog to find and retrieve shed antlers. We have just started this and I am new to the sport but she is retrieving them well so far when I throw a single one. Where I have an issue is when I incorprate more than one antler in the yard she gets confused it seems.

Whether it's a shed or a tennis ball or a slice of cake, what the dog's retrieving is a mark - you've thrown something for the dog to retrieve. Unless I'm mistaken, what's happening here is that the dog is compliant at picking up a mark, but not making the association with sheds on the ground that are hunted for and retrieved upon discovery. I would have four or five sheds arrayed in the open and with the dog on lead, work toward each and tell the dog to pick each shed as she reaches it. Would not use the command "Fetch!" in the event you have to FF the dog should this "natural" progression fail.

MG

[polmaise]

Here's the disconnect
MG

Here's the disconnect.......The eyes with the nose.
Have the dog on a short lead ,toss an antler on the ground that the dog can see ,far enough away that is longer than the short lead,and close enough that you can step out and pick it up. After tossing the antler , cover the dogs eyes with your hand as you pick up the antler and put it in your bag or pocket. Uncover the dogs eyes and issue a hunt command of your choosing ,just let go of the lead . The dog believes it is there because it seen it! It has to use it's nose to find it ! when the dog has all but hunted the area ,drop the antler on the ground so that the dog doesn't see you . voilà ...rinse and repeat as they say ...extending the distance .

[banknote]

Does it always bring back the same antler?

[Trekmoor]

I agree with Robert (Polmaise)... Although I have never taught a dog to search for antlers I think it would just be a progression of retrieving ability in the same way as a mark and retrieve of a dummy can become a search for multiple unseen dummies of any kind and then for unseen game of any kind that has fallen.

Bill T.

[crackerd]

So you and Robt. opine that retrieving gundogs should be taught not to believe their own eyes, i.e., marking, by moving an object they've marked to another location where they can find it by using their nose?

That's pretty rich in our scheme of things, Bill - over here, sight supersedes scent, rather than vice versa. And since you've admittedly not trained for it (what training there is that goes into it), finding shed antlers is a hunting expedition for the dog, not a marking exercise. So the OP should stop throwing sheds for the dog in the first place, and let the dog hunt for them instead.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Neither Robert nor I are talking about taking away what a dog has seen hit the ground and then dropping it again at any appreciable distance. It would only need to be dropped a few feet from the original fall to make the dog use it's nose instead of it's eyes . Unless dogs find antlers using only sight ?

To get a dog to be keen enough to hunt for them in the first place I think Robert and certainly I, feel it should be encouraged to hunt keenly using it's nose. A judicious mixture of sight and scent could be used to achieve that. As I said, I've never hunted for an antler in my life so I could be wrong but something like the above is what I would try if I did want to find antlers.

Bill T.

[ezzy333]

It is in my opinion, a case of the dog doing what it has been trained to do. The game is to bring back the object you have thrown so you can throw it again. It has not been taught to just pick up something laying on the ground and bringing it to you. I wonder if it might work to throw two objects together and a very short distance and see if the pup will do both quickly enough that it remembers you threw both. Or possibly try to work with two objects and you throw one while the pup is bringing the other back. I would make them very short retrieves till you can get it through to the pup to get both.

[polmaise]

I concur with Bill. I also have never used a dog or trained a dog to find shed antlers but I have trained some to find car keys /drugs/plastic bottles and all manner of things and in the case of the OP what is explained (as I see it) is the dog and handler does not have a process that the dog understands to 'find' by scent ? ..What I suggested is for such a team and not standard for one that already has this process in place and in no way is anything to do with the process of a retrieve by way of a 'mark' that the dog can see , picks up and brings back.
However, what is suggested doesn't require any special ground or equipment or indeed time ! and is highly unlikely to cause any ill effect ,so for what it's worth to the OP . Give it a try ?...You have nothing to loose ....except an antler if you forget where you put it

[aulrich]

I look at this more as a "find dead" than a mark or any sort of FF thing.

Do you FF a dog to search for birds to flush, no you relate the scent of a bird to something good happening and you are off to the races. And that is the big issue with dead cold antler nor real positive outcome like a nice warm bird . I have the Dockens DVD and early on at least he uses high value food treats as the motivator , a lot of the system too is teaching a dog to search (quartering). But the early going is getting finding an antler and brining it back identified as a good thing in the dogs mind, this is probable one of the few spots where treat training I likely the best option.

[crackerd]

It is in my opinion, a case of the dog doing what it has been trained to do.

That's exactly it - and also a case of a dog not doing what it hasn't been trained to do.

Bill, you don't have to move anything anywhere if you train a dog to hunt for sheds instead of marking them by making throws.

Yes, you teach a dog to use its nose for a particular object - these things



but you let them scent and pick up the sheds from a standing start - you don't throw them for retrieves. And oh, by the way, spaniels in my experience are best at shed hunting, as they (and their noses) are lower to the ground. How low? Well, sometimes they might almost trip over the top of their discovery.



MG

[Trekmoor]

I'm not sure I should start on this subject because it has so many variables. I think dogs often pick things up because what they pick up has points of similarity to something they have found rewarding to pick up many times before. In this I think they behave a bit like a trout does with an artificial fishing fly. If the artificial fly has sufficient points of similarity to the real fly then the trout will ignore it's points of difference and the trout will take the artificial fly. The points of similarity could be the artificial fly's size, or shape, or colour or it's manner of moving in the water. If one or two things are "wrong" like the number of legs on the artificial or some part of it's colouring , the trout will still take the fly because it can see points of similarity.

Dogs can be brilliant retrievers of dummies only their owners have handled but may refuse to pick up a similar dummy thrown with only a strangers scent on it ....unless the dog thinks there are points of similarity . Those could be that both dummies are made of canvas or both dummies have burnt gunpowder scent on them or both dummies have fallen into an area where the dog is well accustomed to finding and retrieving dummies from and then receiving praise for doing so.

Isn't finding and picking up antlers much the same thing ? The genuine antler will be picked up if it bears enough points of similarity to the antlers the dogs owner has used in training. I have no sense of smell by comparison to a dog but a dog's sense of smell would, I think, be sufficient to detect an antlers "base key note" ....it's basic smell that all antlers probably have.
A fresh found antler would have "the smell" , the texture, the approximate size perhaps and maybe the taste too. Those points of similarity could be enough to persuade the dog to pick up this antler that as a point of difference is lacking having it's owners scent all over it ?

Anyway, I'm just talking off the top of my head here so cheerio for now !

Bill T.