VIDEO: Pointer & Setter Championship Stake

[Higgins]

Here is a video filmed at the 2011 Pointer & Setter Champion Stake from Bollihope Moor in England.

Interesting to see some of the differences between trials in the UK and here.

http://youtu.be/mKCmiHakwUc

Enjoy,

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs
___________________________
Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[Elkhunter]

Seemed very similar to the walking trials we hold here. Except they allow dogs to creep with the handler.

[whatsnext]

Seemed very similar to the walking trials we hold here. Except they allow dogs to creep with the handler.

They have a word for the dog's creeping but it escapes me right now, they want the dogs to do that from what I understand. I have seen a few videos on how they hunt and trial over in some of the European countries and it is just not my cup of tea.

[Trekmoor]

Creeping with the handler ? The dog isn't supposed to creep with the handler and if the handler went in front of the dog as they moved in to flush the birds he could be eliminated. The dog is supposed to go in on command to make the flush while the handler keeps to one side behind it.

A number of handlers do prefer to move in with the dogs however. This could be because if he didn't the dog might be "sticky" to flush which is what you lads train for but it is a big fault here. If the handler moves in with the dog he can keep it moving in more easily. Another reason for dog and handler moving in together could be steadiness to flush....the handler is in a better/closer position to the dog to prevent a chase or a run in to shot.

Bill T.

[Elkhunter]

Creeping with the handler ? The dog isn't supposed to creep with the handler and if the handler went in front of the dog as they moved in to flush the birds he could be eliminated. The dog is supposed to go in on command to make the flush while the handler keeps to one side behind it.

A number of handlers do prefer to move in with the dogs however. This could be because if he didn't the dog might be "sticky" to flush which is what you lads train for but it is a big fault here. If the handler moves in with the dog he can keep it moving in more easily. Another reason for dog and handler moving in together could be steadiness to flush....the handler is in a better/closer position to the dog to prevent a chase or a run in to shot.

Bill T.

The video that was posted I thought showed the dog creeping with the handler slightly in front. Are they wild birds?

[gundogguy]

Creeping with the handler ? The dog isn't supposed to creep with the handler and if the handler went in front of the dog as they moved in to flush the birds he could be eliminated. The dog is supposed to go in on command to make the flush while the handler keeps to one side behind it.

A number of handlers do prefer to move in with the dogs however. This could be because if he didn't the dog might be "sticky" to flush which is what you lads train for but it is a big fault here. If the handler moves in with the dog he can keep it moving in more easily. Another reason for dog and handler moving in together could be steadiness to flush....the handler is in a better/closer position to the dog to prevent a chase or a run in to shot.

Bill T.

The video that was posted I thought showed the dog creeping with the handler slightly in front. Are they wild birds?

Thanks Bill for the explanation. Yes, strictly against the law in the UK to plant game for dogs if the game is going to be shot!
The concept of liberated birds is totally foreign to the UK dog men.

[whatsnext]

Creeping with the handler ? The dog isn't supposed to creep with the handler and if the handler went in front of the dog as they moved in to flush the birds he could be eliminated. The dog is supposed to go in on command to make the flush while the handler keeps to one side behind it.

A number of handlers do prefer to move in with the dogs however. This could be because if he didn't the dog might be "sticky" to flush which is what you lads train for but it is a big fault here. If the handler moves in with the dog he can keep it moving in more easily. Another reason for dog and handler moving in together could be steadiness to flush....the handler is in a better/closer position to the dog to prevent a chase or a run in to shot.

Bill T.

Are french trials different?

[DonF]

I have this feeling that in the UK trials are much more about working hunting dog's rather than trial dog's. I really like the walking handler's. But for my taste, the dog's lack style.n Style won't put birds in the bag but I do like to see it. For me I like the tail up between 10 plus. I do not like the poker straight tail going straight up and I don't like head crank.

[Trekmoor]

Yes those are most certainly wild birds. The birds are grouse and they have never been successfully reared in captivity . Billy Steele (the elder) used to be a grouse moor keeper and he did once manage to take grouse eggs and hatch them then rear the chicks in a pen for a short while but he told me he'd never do it again. Young grouse chicks eat insects and then young heather shoots . Providing those things meant far too much time and work.

"Style" is very much in the eye of the beholder. The dogs in the film had a crouching stance ( it seems to be less likely to scare game into running or flying ?) and their tails are held pretty much level with the line of the back and the head and neck. We like to see that but sometimes our dogs do "point tall" too ....maybe to catch the wind borne scent better at distance ? Most British pointer/setter folk detest seeing a dogs tail sticking up into the air as it points .....it just isn't British !

I have never been to a French pointer/setter trial but the Continental trialers I've heard about all do as we do here, they expect the dog to flush on command, the handler does not kick the birds up. The dog knows where the bird is so we have the dog flush it out.

Bill T.

[whatsnext]

I believe Mark Dinsmore ran his dog vern in France and he has a video of it on you tube.

[bhulisa]

Check this one out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6yw5v6WHuM

This is the 2011 European Pointer Championships, held in Serbia. This is one of the Classical European field trials. Teams from various countries compete, and I believe there are individual as well as team awards.

Run on short grass or croplands, in braces, short beats into the wind. Emphasis is placed on running style and ground treatment, use of wind. Dogs making an inside turn (at the extremity of a cast, turning wrong away from the wind) are either heavily faulted or eliminated. Passing birds is an eliminating offense as I understand it. Hence, the dogs run a very flat and wide pattern. This is how I understand the trials based on what people who have been to them have told me. I could well be wrong about certain things!

Interesting type of trial, completely different to the European hunting trials, or what little I've seen of US trials, and certainly South African trials Amazing to see how closely they run to settled areas, roads, etc!

South African Pointers used to have a greater influence coming from dogs in these trials. These days, we see more influence from the USA, and some Sweden or Finland. FWIW

[SCT]

The grouse moors are beautiful grounds for such an event. The dogs are beautiful too, and even though it is different in many ways to what we strive for here, it is a great way to test bird dogs. I've hunted over the English bred pointers and found them to be excellent bird dogs, just like the ones bred here. I would love to hunt those moor lands.

[Grange]

Where's the camo? Reminds me of old photographs of my grandfather on Sunday afternoon wearing a tie while hanging out in the backyard after church.

[Trekmoor]

For me working pointing dogs on the grouse moors is the cream of all gundog work. I did it hundreds of times and I now wish I had done it for hundreds more while I was still able to.

I enjoyed the film of the trial in Serbia , I loved the hard "flat" pattern of the dogs but I too was surprised by how near to roads and villages the trial went.

Bill T.

[Griffonpoint]

Yes those are most certainly wild birds. The birds are grouse and they have never been successfully reared in captivity . Billy Steele (the elder) used to be a grouse moor keeper and he did once manage to take grouse eggs and hatch them then rear the chicks in a pen for a short while but he told me he'd never do it again. Young grouse chicks eat insects and then young heather shoots . Providing those things meant far too much time and work.

"Style" is very much in the eye of the beholder. The dogs in the film had a crouching stance ( it seems to be less likely to scare game into running or flying ?) and their tails are held pretty much level with the line of the back and the head and neck. We like to see that but sometimes our dogs do "point tall" too ....maybe to catch the wind borne scent better at distance ? Most British pointer/setter folk detest seeing a dogs tail sticking up into the air as it points .....it just isn't British !

I have never been to a French pointer/setter trial but the Continental trialers I've heard about all do as we do here, they expect the dog to flush on command, the handler does not kick the birds up. The dog knows where the bird is so we have the dog flush it out.

Bill T.

I love seeing the 'crouching stance' of UK and Continental pointing breeds. Very feline-like and intense. Boldness on point is super in all Pointing dogs, but I do like to look at the lower, cunning looking point, myself.

[Dirty Dawger]

My wife is from Scotland and we've been a few times. On one visit I met with a lady that ran pointers in trials. She took me out with a brace on a grouse moor. Off in the distance was a panoramic view of the sea. I has to pinch myself! It was something I'll never forget. The pointers did a delightful job on their grouse.
Wish I could have done moor of that. Perhaps another day.

[whatsnext]

This is what I was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjvOTPIdYPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZGqdeSEb9c

[Trekmoor]

Do the little hand taps made to the back of the dogs head in the film give it permission to move in with the handler or are they a command to flush ? Either way , if that was done here in a field trial the dog would probably be eliminated. We are not allowed to touch a dog in any way from the time it is cast off to hunt to the time the judge says to put the lead back on again.

I think the idea is to avoid any hint of a physical correction being given to trial dogs.

Bill T.

[shags]

Over here a tap is a cue to relocate. If a dog moves after establishing point, its day is pretty much over, so a handler sometimes doesn't want to risk using a verbal or whistle command alone just in case someone nearby verbalizes that command. Lots of people use "easy" or "okay" and it's possible for the dog to misunderstand the use of those words from an observer engaged in another conversation. Likewise whistles; the standing dog might hear the whistle of the bracemate's handler and move up. So it's safer to use a tap alone, or a tap with a verbal or whistle.
FWIW, if the handler can't locate the bird to flush he can request to relocate his dog. If the bird has moved the dog will hunt the nearby area. If the bird is there but perhaps buried under grass or hiding under roots or something, the dog should indicate its presence by remaining in place despite the command. If he pushes the bird out, he's done.

[Trekmoor]

Thanks, that is what I wanted to know.

Bill T.

[bhulisa]

Trekmoor, I was always under the impression that in the UK trials, a positive flush on command is desired. I have rarely seen it on dvd or video, however. Friends in the UK and Sweden indicate that in their trials they want to see a very positive and precision flush from the dog, from moving in directly with purpose, to a virtual sprint and even virtually hitting the ground with their feet to put the game up.

How much is this desired in the UK and does it differ between Pointer/Setter trials and HPR trials?

[Higgins]

Trekmoor, I was always under the impression that in the UK trials, a positive flush on command is desired. I have rarely seen it on dvd or video, however. Friends in the UK and Sweden indicate that in their trials they want to see a very positive and precision flush from the dog, from moving in directly with purpose, to a virtual sprint and even virtually hitting the ground with their feet to put the game up.

How much is this desired in the UK and does it differ between Pointer/Setter trials and HPR trials?

Hello Bhulisa,

Here is a young pointer we're training to flush/stop on cue in the UK style. We want to see an aggressive flush folowed by an immediate stop, waiting for the "fetch" cue. A lot of our clients that hunt birds in heavy or thick cover, find this flush/stop cue helpful.

http://youtu.be/7AS45jbjEwE

The following is the information I included with the clip on YouTube. It will help explain the process.

"Here is a young Pointer learning to flush on cue. Or as I say, the dog is learning to "present the bird to the guns". I slowed the video down just as I give the cue (a quick movement of my shoulders toward the bird). I want the dog to believe that his stopping, after the flush, causes the gun to go off. He already knows that when the gun goes off, he will often be rewarded with the bird."

[Trekmoor]

Bhulisa, I see differences between how most of our pointer and setters flush and how most of the HPR's flush on command. There are many shades of grey in how all of these breeds flush . "Sticky" dogs get chucked out of trials or are downmarked if the stickiness is not pronounced. That is common to trials for all pointing breeds .

I do see more signs of stickiness among the pointers and setters than among the HPR's however. This could be because most pointer/setter trials here are held in heather on grouse moors with grouse being the main quarry species. Grouse have some ingrained behaviours to deal with predators. The cock grouse will sometimes double back around it's covey and seek to lead the dog away from the hen and the brood ....even if the brood are well grown and flying well.

It is possible for a cock grouse to take the dog as much as 80 yards on a "wild goose chase" and then fly off with a mocking "Go Back ! Go Back! " call left behind it . Also left behind will be the covey and if they then fly off the judges may put the dog out. That makes handlers rather cautious so many handlers choose to train their dogs to move in fairly slowly. The handler does stay with his dog but does not move in front of it. This often causes the dogs to become sticky, they wait for the handlers to move in with them and stop regularly to ensure he is beside them and then they wait for more encouragement (extra commands) to resume moving in to flush.

I often see dogs become so sticky on grouse that the handler begins to bend forward and shake the heather out in front in an effort to make the dog move on ! Another reason for a slower flush is steadiness to flush. The handler overtrains the stop to flush in an effort to ensure steadiness. Yet another reason for the slower more deliberate flush is the fact that not all grouse in a covey will always fly off at the same time. Some handlers want their dogs to produce just a few birds at a time from the point.

There are mixed feelings about this as it can be done to allow a gun time to reload after his first two shots and then also shoot at the next bird or birds that the dog flushes. Many people consider this to be unsporting.

HPR trials are more commonly held with pheasants as the main game species. A dog that flushes on command in a hard and fast manner is more likely to put the bird into the air than a more sticky dog is.....the bird gets less chance to run from the point.
Our falconers want their dogs of whatever breed to flush hard and fast. I haven't done much falconry but I'm told there is an optimum moment to command the flush as the peregrine circles above ? If the dog flushes slowly and steadily that moment will have passed giving the peregrine less chance of a good stoop and kill.

Personally, I prefer my dogs not to go in like rockets when flushing but I do not like stickiness either .... a middle of the speed range flush suits me fine. It is a big no-no in this country for most people but I also train my dogs to flush on command when I am a considerable distance away from them. I like to be able to choose my spot to shoot from if my dog is inside cover such as woodlands trying to flush a bird out. I do not want to be surrounded by branches or by reeds that would make swinging my gun difficult .....my mates say it is cheating but it works well so I do it !
If that is done the dog needs to be very well trained to be steady to flush, shot and fall of game because I will be as much as 30 yards away as the dog flushes and will very probably not even be able to see the dog.

Bill T.

[Vision]

The grouse moors are beautiful grounds for such an event. The dogs are beautiful too, and even though it is different in many ways to what we strive for here, it is a great way to test bird dogs. I've hunted over the English bred pointers and found them to be excellent bird dogs, just like the ones bred here. I would love to hunt those moor lands.

Me Too Steve. I would love to rough shoot on the grouse moors.

[bhulisa]

Higgins, that is more what I have seen in terms of a positive flush on command! Just have trouble finding a video clip of it to show others. Thanks.

Trekmoor, thank you for the detailed and interesting explanation. Bird behaviour itself is fascinating and does have an impact on how the dog works, or how the handler handles We were driving to a training area a few weeks ago when we saw a covey of Cape Francolin flush from the empty lands into the area of cover. We could see their flight but not exact area of landing. When we stopped, I could see a bird sitting on the edge of the cover, clearly a lookout watching to see what we were going to do. I said, check that, that will be the cock bird and he will lead us off on a merry chase if we head that way. He did - ran along the edge for quite a ways before we lost sight of him. And sure enough, the dogs down picked up his trail and off they went about 100 meters before going into the cover where he must have...and they passed the main covey, which as it turns out, was on the opposite side of the draw where he was sitting!

The grouse moors must be magnificent!

[mountaindogs]

I shall forever love the straight out point of the European dogs. The high tails seem... I don't know I just feel like it's like a dog in a miniskirt that's too short. But the continental breeds with docked tails look better with a little tail lift. But no need to be a terrier either IMHO.