stay on shot and fall

[oldbeek]

Anyone have a good quick way to teach dog to stay till command fetch after shot and bird drop? I am using the Delmar Smith method of holding the dog and having a shooter shoot the bird. Have gone through so many pigeons that she doesn't point the bird in the trap steady. ( Doesn't move but poor tail wag point and lawing down sometimes) Still doesn't hold to shot.

[Neil]

It does not sound like you are follow Delmar' s program very closely, your nomenclature is way off. I suggest you attend a seminar, and find a local training group with at least one mentor.

The dog is stale, and this pressure avoidance ,, flagging and going down. is going to get worse if you don't back off and learn what you are doing. It can be corrected, but looking for a quick fix is what has brought you here.

Good luck,

[shags]

Flagging and dropping on point are signs of way too much pressure being put on a dog. You are going to have to back off, and back up in your training. That you ask for "a good quick way" sends a message and it isn't a good one; I'd bet you've pushed too fast in the dog's training already, and now you have a mess to clean up.

Back to Chapter 1 for you. Back to square one for the dog. Let the dog find and point birds. Leave the gun in the house. Keep your mouth shut. Let her chase if she will. Everything at this stage has to be fun for her, as if she were a little pup.

I don't know if Delmar ever said it, but I know that his son Rick has..."It takes as long as it takes".

[gundogguy]

F

I don't know if Delmar ever said it, but I know that his son Rick has..."It takes as long as it takes".

That applies to all dogs and all breeds!

Seminar may be a good place for you to get some knew ideas about to approach this situation differently. This is the stage in the dogs life that the owner/trainer will learn the most!

[gonehuntin']

If they are not steady for tossed clipwings in the yard, they won't be in the field. Steady the dog in the training yard with hand tossed birds and a heeling stick and six foot lead. Only when the dog is rock steady in the yard should you take him to the field and proof them.

[oldbeek]

Dog has been in training for 12 months. She is rock solid in the yard with hand tossed live pigeons in her face. She points on hand tossed clipped pigeons that can not fly. She will hold point on wild quail singles as they flush. ( Covey of 50 is above her pay grade. Those she will break and chase which I allow) She holds on flush of pigeons with a blank pistol shot. Bring out the shotgun and it is an all new game. I need to record a session because I am not sure if she breaks as the shooter swings the gun or breaks on shot. I want her to hold till command. This same dog got to where she would not fetch the bird about 2 months ago on my first attempt to have her hold till command. I have been working her on the FF for the last 2 months. I think I am done there. She will fetch anything any time on command with a happy tail.

[shags]

Back up in your training and use the shotgun instead of the blank gun on pigeons. Don't shoot them, just blank them as you would with the pistol. When she's steady in the yard, move to the field.

If you want your dog steady to wing, shot, and fall, why are you letting her break sometimes? At her stage in training, consistency is important. Covey size doesn't matter - can she count to 50? 25? How about 10?

Baby steps. Consistency.

[gonehuntin']

Back up in your training and use the shotgun instead of the blank gun on pigeons. Don't shoot them, just blank them as you would with the pistol. When she's steady in the yard, move to the field.

If you want your dog steady to wing, shot, and fall, why are you letting her break sometimes? At her stage in training, consistency is important. Covey size doesn't matter - can she count to 50? 25? How about 10?

Baby steps. Consistency.

+1

[gonehuntin']

The thing is, to proof a dog, you have to tempt a dog. What is your command to have her retrieve; her name? If so, throw a clippie and call a different name and make her stay until her name is called. Does she retrieve by oral command only or oral and hand? On a young dog, they should not retrieve until sent orally and by hand motion. It is a kind of double steadying method. A great retriever trainer had a saying: " If you train for the rediculous, the trials come easy". If the dog won't stay through temptation in the yard, she won't in the field.

[gundogguy]

Lets see some video of your training sessions! we'll sort the bear from buck wheat out then and be able to offer an exact fix for what you want to do!

[Fun dog]

Why don't you know when she is breaking? You should be watching the dog.

[DonF]

Anyone have a good quick way to teach dog to stay till command fetch after shot and bird drop? I am using the Delmar Smith method of holding the dog and having a shooter shoot the bird. Have gone through so many pigeons that she doesn't point the bird in the trap steady. ( Doesn't move but poor tail wag point and lawing down sometimes) Still doesn't hold to shot.

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said about being broke. But the problem with the pigeons in traps is because you turned them into a training bird and she knows exactly what's going to happen. If you've had her on any wild birds, there is a huge difference in what you do, she will have the definition of training bird and wild bird taught to her. the point of the trap, remote, is to teach her that it is her movement that cause's the bird to leave.

[bonasa]

Anyone have a good quick way to teach dog to stay till command fetch after shot and bird drop? I am using the Delmar Smith method of holding the dog and having a shooter shoot the bird. Have gone through so many pigeons that she doesn't point the bird in the trap steady. ( Doesn't move but poor tail wag point and lawing down sometimes) Still doesn't hold to shot.

Why are you shooting birds if the dog doesn't stand through the shot itself? Give a couple weeks off birds then back up...way up. I'm not farmiliar with that program but, how does the dog handle a wild flush? Dogs age?

[Fun dog]

Dog has been in training for 12 months. She is rock solid in the yard with hand tossed live pigeons in her face. She points on hand tossed clipped pigeons that can not fly. She will hold point on wild quail singles as they flush. ( Covey of 50 is above her pay grade. Those she will break and chase which I allow) She holds on flush of pigeons with a blank pistol shot. Bring out the shotgun and it is an all new game. I need to record a session because I am not sure if she breaks as the shooter swings the gun or breaks on shot. I want her to hold till command. This same dog got to where she would not fetch the bird about 2 months ago on my first attempt to have her hold till command. I have been working her on the FF for the last 2 months. I think I am done there. She will fetch anything any time on command with a happy tail.

I'm curious why you don't know when the dog is breaking. You should be watching the dog. Does your dog know whoa? The perfect start/finish dvd's should get your dog finished to steady to wing and shot, but you need to follow all the steps.

[bonasa]

Dog has been in training for 12 months. She is rock solid in the yard with hand tossed live pigeons in her face. She points on hand tossed clipped pigeons that can not fly. She will hold point on wild quail singles as they flush. ( Covey of 50 is above her pay grade. Those she will break and chase which I allow) She holds on flush of pigeons with a blank pistol shot. Bring out the shotgun and it is an all new game. I need to record a session because I am not sure if she breaks as the shooter swings the gun or breaks on shot. I want her to hold till command. This same dog got to where she would not fetch the bird about 2 months ago on my first attempt to have her hold till command. I have been working her on the FF for the last 2 months. I think I am done there. She will fetch anything any time on command with a happy tail.

Woops, guess I skimmed this post! Sticking with your method and not switching, I'd substitute the blank pistol for the shotgun/poppers on the planted pigeons, then go to the planted quail with the shotgun/poppers and make sure she stays steady.

[Neil]

Anyone else notice the OP Hasn't been back?

[ezzy333]

He posted twice yesterday and I haven't taken the time to see if he was on today, However, I don't see the problem with someone not posting everyday. Some people have a life.

Ezzy

[Neil]

I am glad he and others have a life, I just find it interesting that many only post during working hours. And the regulars just keep answering the question, often arguing amongst ourselves.

[ezzy333]

I am glad he and others have a life, I just find it interesting that many only post during working hours. And the regulars just keep answering the question, often arguing amongst ourselves.

True enough.

[Sharon]

He posted twice yesterday and I haven't taken the time to see if he was on today, However, I don't see the problem with someone not posting everyday. Some people have a life.

Ezzy

LOL Hey! I'll have a life when the temp is not -20 degrees Celsius and the snow isn't 6 feet high. Then the dogs and I will be out and gardening will start. ROFLMBO

like this:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=picture+ ... B480%3B360

[oldbeek]

Well it was 70 degrees here yesterday and today. Went to a NASTRSA trial to help out. BEAUTIFUL weather light breeze to carry scent. Went out to fill a bye dog vacancy. heck now she has started to jump in on bobwhites. Trainers there say to use bobs and a remote launcher. If she moves, launch the bird and let it fly off. I will try that. Shot one bird near the water hole and she stopped for a drink on retrieve. On leaving the water, she forgot the bird, I said fetch so she went right back for it. She was about 100 yards off and retrieved it directly. I suppose she shouldn't have stopped at the water, BUT she is a pup and it was hot. I think I am done with FF because she is retrieving nicely . 2 months ago she wouldn't retrieve at all. My fault. This is a great dog and I hope I don't screw her up. We found 4 birds on 40 acres in 13 minutes but handled 2 real poorly. DQ time on the second poor handle. I know, going to trials is not helping my original problem but I am getting old and my days are numbered. It was fun. Thanks for all the answers.

[Sharon]

Ohhhhhhhhhh. Now I feel worse. No more bobwhites here either.

[DonF]

Use a great deal of caution launching bob's from a remote. Pen raised birds can be extremely bad flyer's and you could well have one come back down in front of your dog as fast as it went up. That will teach it it can catch them on the ground.

Start all over and do it with pigeon's. Keep your moth shut while your dog is on a bird. Your gonna have to get your dog interested all over. Do not give him a chance to point a bird. You need to know exactly where the bird is and exactly where the scent cone is. As he cone's into the scent cone pop the bird. Do not give him a chance to do it right, that's what got you to where you are!It's gonna take a bit of time but you have to turn the pigeon back into a wild bird again. Making them a training bird is a bad mistake. Then you probably waited to long to break off pigeon's to game birds. Keep your mouth shut and don't give your dog a chance to point. When he get's the point before you can launch, you'll be on the way back.

[bonasa]

Sorry to hear that, by "real poor handle" of the birds I imagine she is trapping them now? Get that dog on a checkcord and standing to wild flush then pop the bird on first scent. Stand her up for several moments then heel her away and put her up for a few days. Add the shot once that is achieved and finally add the kill but dont allow every retrieve. It won't take long to get her broke on launchers but it will take consistency.

[oldbeek]

Use a great deal of caution launching bob's from a remote. Pen raised birds can be extremely bad flyer's and you could well have one come back down in front of your dog as fast as it went up. That will teach it it can catch them on the ground.

Start all over and do it with pigeon's. Keep your moth shut while your dog is on a bird. Your gonna have to get your dog interested all over. Do not give him a chance to point a bird. You need to know exactly where the bird is and exactly where the scent cone is. As he cone's into the scent cone pop the bird. Do not give him a chance to do it right, that's what got you to where you are!It's gonna take a bit of time but you have to turn the pigeon back into a wild bird again. Making them a training bird is a bad mistake. Then you probably waited to long to break off pigeon's to game birds. Keep your mouth shut and don't give your dog a chance to point. When he get's the point before you can launch, you'll be on the way back.

Will give this a try. Sounds doable

[Grange]

Use a great deal of caution launching bob's from a remote. Pen raised birds can be extremely bad flyer's and you could well have one come back down in front of your dog as fast as it went up. That will teach it it can catch them on the ground.

Start all over and do it with pigeon's. Keep your moth shut while your dog is on a bird. Your gonna have to get your dog interested all over. Do not give him a chance to point a bird. You need to know exactly where the bird is and exactly where the scent cone is. As he cone's into the scent cone pop the bird. Do not give him a chance to do it right, that's what got you to where you are!It's gonna take a bit of time but you have to turn the pigeon back into a wild bird again. Making them a training bird is a bad mistake. Then you probably waited to long to break off pigeon's to game birds. Keep your mouth shut and don't give your dog a chance to point. When he get's the point before you can launch, you'll be on the way back.

This sounds similar to what I did with my setter. I love poor flying quail for proofing a dog, but if one doesn't have much confidence in the dog then they could make things difficult.

[mountaindogs]

I am starting to prefer a back chaining method. Allowing for the retrieve as the reward. Provided the happy timing and early puppy exposure on good flying birds could happen thoroughly that is.

[oldbeek]

Been a long time but I thought I should finish this post. I got with a pro trainer. We went through 30 bobs. Eye contact is the most important thing I have learned. Dog points like a rock. I get in front of her and slightly to one side. Get eye contact, say nothing. Flush the bird keeping eye contact. Shooter shoots the bird. She stays till command Missy to retrieve. She backs solid. She stands and watches on a covey rise. We are still training once a week just for drill. We also go out and find and point wild birds at least once a week.

[oldbeek]

Been a long time but I thought I should finish this post. I got with a pro trainer. We went through 30 bobs. Eye contact is the most important thing I have learned. Dog points like a rock. I get in front of her and slightly to one side. Get eye contact, say nothing. Flush the bird keeping eye contact. Shooter shoots the bird. She stays till command Missy to retrieve. She backs solid. She stands and watches on a covey rise. We are still training once a week just for drill. We also go out and find and point wild birds at least once a week.

[getzapped]

I am glad he and others have a life, I just find it interesting that many only post during working hours. And the regulars just keep answering the question, often arguing amongst ourselves.

Bathroom breaks are the best time to catch up on forums!

[Higgins]

Hello oldbeek,

Here is a video of a young dog understanding steady to wing, shot and fall in one training session. The secret is, the foundation of the training method is different.

https://youtu.be/8vDfeE1405c


.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com
___________________________
Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[oldbeek]

Hello oldbeek,

Here is a video of a young dog understanding steady to wing, shot and fall in one training session. The secret is, the foundation of the training method is different.

https://youtu.be/8vDfeE1405c
Question. In your "stop to flush with payoff" Why is the shot bird brought back to the dog? If dog is trained to retrieve on command, could you send dog to retrieve? I do fetch the bird and bring to the dog to teach her she does not get every fetch. But also I let her fetch most of the time.

.

Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com
___________________________
Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[h&t]

Thanks for the update. Eye contact - it's a good one.