Some time gunshyness

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mikej
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Some time gunshyness

Post by mikej » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:44 pm

I have a GSP, just turned four, who has had several hundred pigeons and quail shot over her. She is normally not at all gunshy. However, if I am out with two or three other hunters, and there is a flurry of shots, her tail drops and she tries to get into my pocket. It has been suggested that I take her to the skeet range, but I'm afraid it might make the problem worse. I've seen ads for audio CDs, but don't know if they work. I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by rinker » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:16 pm

I'm not sure what will work, but I'm certain that taking her to the skeet range is a very bad idea.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by DonF » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:04 pm

Bad idea going to a skeet range. Limit the number of shooter's over her, maybe one! The problem is not that she is gun shy but that your putting on a war and she's right there!
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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:15 pm

Exactly .
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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:45 pm

Of course it would be a bad idea! ..Well, you knew that already with your first post?
But your question is 'what to do now that you have messed up ' ?..Or more literally' found out that the 4 years of gunshot over the dog is not the same as 4 years of gunshot in that environment ?
The posters who have replied already should offer some ''sound'' advice in this department to help you moving forward :wink:

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by hi-tailyn » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:52 pm

No Skeet Range.

Just random shooting means nothing to a dog.

That is where people mess up their young dogs. Dog chasing bird in full chase then a shot is only way to introduce gunfire and have positive results. Sound of gun then equals bird. That is the key to the dogs prey drive.

You already know a furry of shots is too much for her.

Limit the number of people shooting over her. No dog needs to have 3 or more guns blasting over them.

Same thing you would do for a young dog. Always when dog has full attention on bird flushing if steady. If not steady and will chase then get the prey drive going again with full chase then a shot.

I would do a trial reintroduction to gun fire period again with only one shooting single shots then work up the number of shots that 1-2 hunters would shoot.

Best of luck.
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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by gundogguy » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:28 am

Video would sure be helpful. Letting 3rd parties read your dog would go a long way in prescribing intelligent helps for this situation!
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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by mikej » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:40 am

Thanks for the feedback. We all agree skeet range is a bad idea. While it would no doubt be useful, hard to get video. I hunted the dog around thirty times over the season. Only time problem appeared was the two times there were more than two hunters. The season is over now so would be hard to recreate.

I agree simple solution would be to not hunt her with more than two shooters. I can do that, although some hunts are special because of the hunters participating.

No one mentioned the audio CDs by masters voice or foxfire (maybe firefox) used for overcoming gunshyness. Has anyone tried them? Thanks again!

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:47 am

Your dog is not gunshy occasionally. She is shy about guns being fired when she hasn't found the bird. I have used the tapes a couple of times and they helped but the dogs were completely and severely gunshy. As I said your dog just hasn't put the shooting together with birds and that manifests itself when she hears all of the noise but she doesn't quite know why since she isn't aware that the reason is there are birds. One of the first Britts I ever had was like that when I got her and I am not sure way back then that we ever cured her but she did get better with experience. But the secret is to make her aware that the guns mean birds even though she didn't find them. My experience says it is a hard and slow fix but I also have not encountered it in recent years when I knew a lot more than I did 50 years ago. Remember, she isn't shy of the gun but rather hasn't figured out why all the noise when she isn't aware of birds being present.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by bagofdonuts » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:45 am

You can hunt with your friends, just take turns on who gets to shoot. Also don't coddle the dog if she reacts badly(tries to get in your pocket). If you do, your telling pup there is something to be afraid of. If it happens do your best to ignore her and keep hunting as if nothing happened.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:05 am

I am going to shock everyone including myself, taking her to a sleet/trap/gun range might help some. I am opposed to it as an introduction, but for desensitization it might be worth a careful try.

I would put her in the front seat and gradually drive closer, stop, ignore her reaction, but pet her or give her a treat, or however you normally interact, then get closer and closer. Don't try to soothe her with baby talk, just hang out. If she freaks at 200 yards, I was wrong, go home and take me off your Christmass card list.

Rafe makes a CD, Google Surefire. The great Robert Milner plays war movies like Saving Private Ryan at top volume. I have found recordings lack the same effect as the real thing, not as much vibration or something.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:04 pm

The season is over.

That means you have about six months to work on the problem.

For starters, I would get a 22 blank gun and a variety of blanks, from acorn crimps to black powder loads. Maybe I would start with a cap pistol. Depends on the dog and how it reacts.

I do think that desensitization to gunfire in the absence of birds is the way to proceed, since that is almost certainly the root of the problem.

First thing I would do is set the dog up in the yard on a whoa, maybe on a bench or barrel, if you have one and walk around, then fire the capgun. Watch the dog. If it starts to react, go, re-set the dog...gently...and walk around some more. Go to the dog, stroke it up, settle it down, then walk away, simulate a flush and fire again. Work toward firing several shots in rapid succession. When the dog is oblivious to the capgun, switch to the 22 and acorn crimps. Start all over again with a single shot and work your way back up to a flurry of shots. Then start all over with a #2 Ramset or regular crimp. Proceed to a CCI crimp and finally to a black powder load. The black powder 22 loads are VERY loud.

22 reports are different form shotgun reports. Higher frequency I think.. but different. You will have to, ultimately ...desensitize the dog to shotgun fire. As before I would start with sub-gauges and work up to 12's.

Somewhere along the line you can start taking the dog in the field on runs(no birds) and do some indiscriminate firing with the blank gun. You might want to have a pigeon or two in a bird bag and if the dog comes back in with firing, throw the bird so the dog can see it fly and fire a shot...watching the dog for a reaction.

All of what I am suggesting is pretty dependent on how the dog reacts. If it seems oblivious to the noise, you can proceed and maybe even skip ahead. Just be VERY sure before you forge ahead. one time does not make a proof. Two times does not make a proof. If it reacts... you may have to back up and that is OK because you have tons of time. Start off slow, start off careful and READ your dog at all times.

Oh and the advice to "ignore" negative reactions is spot on. You need to assure your dog, through your lack of concern for the noise and your failure to provide comfort to the dog, but rather to encourage the dog to get on with the business at hand, that this is all something to be taken in stride.

Good luck. Patience and persistence. Gentle but firm.

RayG

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:32 pm

Neil wrote:I am going to shock everyone including myself, taking her to a sleet/trap/gun range might help some. I am opposed to it as an introduction, but for desensitization it might be worth a careful try.

I would put her in the front seat and gradually drive closer, stop, ignore her reaction, but pet her or give her a treat, or however you normally interact, then get closer and closer. Don't try to soothe her with baby talk, just hang out. If she freaks at 200 yards, I was wrong, go home and take me off your Christmass card list.

Rafe makes a CD, Google Surefire. The great Robert Milner plays war movies like Saving Private Ryan at top volume. I have found recordings lack the same effect as the real thing, not as much vibration or something.

Neil
I think if you're doing exposure to a range, you'd want counterconditioning along with the desensitization, so put the emphasis on the pet or give a treat when reports do come in?

I would consider that, not only is a volley of shots more unsettling, the dog potentially may have been muzzle-blasted or even struck by shot previously in this situation and so may be leery for that reason. Particularly if that's the case, it might be necessary to also take a day or two with multiple shooters where particular care is taken to have any shooters well forward of the dog and muzzles pointed forward or otherwise pass up the shot. I also recognize that this may not have happened, just raising the possible issue. If it were the case, I'd even consider then petting or treating the dog on the first day out with multiple shooters after any bird is shot at. The idea being to again countercondition. I understand the concerns about not reinforcing fear, and believe there is a timing issue as to whether you are counterconditioning a stimulus, or encouraging fearful behavior.

For any counterconditioning and desensitization effort, you'd want to stop while you're ahead for each session, i.e. if exposure to a volley of shots in whatever form were attempted, do so from sufficient distance that the dog shows no reaction, end on a high note, go home. Next time get a little closer. Take it slow, and back up the process if needed. The temptation is to try to make large gains in one session, which can risk undoing the benefit of one exposure if the next is too close and therefore causes a negative reaction.
Last edited by Nutmeg247 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by will-kelly » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:56 pm

"Several hundred birds" shot for a dog and now a shyness shows up? There is something missing in the original post.

Is the dog steady to wing and shot?

The only time I have ever heard of a dog going sideways after 3+ years and hundreds of birds hunting is when a friends dog was hit by a few pellets from an inexperienced hunter the guy brought with him one time. Dog was never the same and never really hunted after that.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:54 pm

THis was the key statement: "However, if I am out with two or three other hunters, and there is a flurry of shots, her tail drops and she tries to get into my pocket. " quote OP

That is what has made the change m which doesn't surprise me.
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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by polmaise » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:24 pm

Sharon wrote:THis was the key statement: "However, if I am out with two or three other hunters, and there is a flurry of shots, her tail drops and she tries to get into my pocket. " quote OP

That is what has made the change m which doesn't surprise me.
Yup! ..Must be that that made this one the same?
Like has been said earlier . A video would help ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by mikej » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:48 pm

Hi Folks, Lots to think about. In response, this year isn't the first time the issue showed up. It's happened probably once a year, and twice this season. She is steady to wing. I don't think that she has ever been peppered. Thanks for your interest and help.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:24 pm

mikej wrote:Hi Folks, Lots to think about. In response, this year isn't the first time the issue showed up. It's happened probably once a year, and twice this season. She is steady to wing. I don't think that she has ever been peppered. Thanks for your interest and help.
Seems one simple solution is to have at max two shooters per flush for quail even if you go out with 4 or more hunters. I'm having trouble visualizing that many scenarios where you are using a pointing dog on quail and you're going to want 3 or 4 people shooting at the same time. The scenario you're describing sounds more like walking multiple hunters through a field after pheasant, but then lots of times I don't get obvious things.

If at most 4 shots from two well-positioned shooters are still problematic, you might try a cc/ds protocol with just an autoloader and you plus one helper, again in this case starting far enough away that you get no reaction from the dog, and keeping sessions short. Starting with one shot and working up to three would be the idea.

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Re: Some time gunshyness

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:04 pm

mikej wrote:Hi Folks, Lots to think about. In response, this year isn't the first time the issue showed up. It's happened probably once a year, and twice this season. She is steady to wing. I don't think that she has ever been peppered. Thanks for your interest and help.
Thanks for your 'more info' ..It helps :wink:

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