English Setter pup training

[Hairofthebear]

I bought my puppy from what I believed was a reputable bird dog breeder in Idaho. When I went to see the dog (just prior to taking it home) I asked to see the mother or father and it was then they said the mother died a couple days after giving birth due to an infection. There were two puppies and mine was the only survivor so they raised it in the house. After about 6 months I took the dog to the breeder and explained the dog showed zero interest in hunting with quail right in front of it (the dog would walk over the top of where they were). There was no wind. This has happened numerous times. They put a live pigeon in the grass and the dog showed no interest. They told me to come back in a couple weeks and I came back a month later. Still no interest. So they asked me to leave the dog there for two months of training. I asked the trainer (one of them) to show me what I paid for after those last two months and she told me the whole time that he was really growing as a bird dog, but when I asked to see what I paid for the dog still showed no interest, very unfocused. (I think she was exaggerating all progress). The dog is 10 months old and still no interest in hunting. Even a dead chukar in the grass doesn't peak his interest. He sniffs and walks away, never pointed....nada. I guess what gets me is when the trainer tells me how the dog is learning, but I don't see it either with them or when I take the dog home. I rarely miss a day when he doesn't get out so I'm doing all I know On top of all this I witnessed the trainer abuse my dog, at least I saw it that way. She had him on a leash and was trying to show me something when it bit her. Without hesitation she grabbed the dog by the collar and flung it about 8 feet through the air and said that you had to deal with biting like that. When I took the dog home he wouldn't eat and for a month now we're dealing with diarrhea and a fever. I complained big time to the owner and he said to bring the dog back for an assessment but I really want my money back. Now I'm sure I will get most here saying he is just a puppy and I need to be patient. I'm willing to keep training, but after 10 months I want to see something of a bird dog....ANYTHING so I can build on that. So far....nothing. I'm really frustrated, not so much with the dog, but with this kennel for continuing to give me all their bs on well he is doing. Any feedback or suggestions as I'm at the end here.

[Sharon]

Good grief . That is a sad story. My experience would say that most trainers are NOT like that, although I had one bad experience myself , when I didn't know about finding a trainer with a good reputation. Forums like this are wonderful for helping in finding good breeders and good trainers.

I know what I would do , if my hopes were on a hunting dog. I would write it off as a lesson learned, find someone to take the dog as a pet , and start over with a well bred dog from a reputable breeder and a reputable trainer. NOT SAYING this is what you should do.

[Trekmoor]

I think you will have to write this pup and this breeder/trainer off to "experience." Being an "only" pup should not have the effect you describe. My present Brittany pup was an "only" pup and although she showed no interest at all in "wing on a string" or in chasing live birds she did like hunting for live birds right from the start . She was not inclined to bite any more than any other pup would be and I do not understand why your pups "trainer" got bitten unless the pup was terrified of him/her.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Two similar posts minutes apart. "hairofthebear" What is the purpose of that. Your situation is not one that a group of internet strangers can solve. It borders more on legal and tort issues than training issues.

[Dirty Dawger]

Hairofthebear, I think you made most of the mistakes although I have no doubt that they were not your intentions. As was already mentioned, this will be a learning experience for you.
First off, I see no mention of prices either for the dog or the training. Sometimes, acquiring a dog and a trainer can be a bit like that saying," You get what you pay for."
This pup should typically show some bird interest although some pups do mature later than others.
Not sure how much time you invested in research before buying this pup?
This I can say without reservation, why the pup bit or nipped at the trainer is an issue unto itself but throwing a pup 8 feet or ANY feet is not by any means "training".
I feel bad for you but even worse for this pup. He didn't pick his parents, his breeder, or his trainer. You may be the best thing that ever happened to this pup. The question is, will it ever be a bird dog?
You might want to cut your loses, find a nice (non-hunting) home for this pup and seek out one of the many very fine setter breeders out there.

[PntrRookie]

hairofthebear...IMO you have 3 choices...

1. Live with the pet you have and start the process over to find a hunting dog (topic for another thread).
2. Find it a good home and start the process over to find a hunting dog (topic for another thread).
3. Go back to the breeder (not sure if it is the same person as your trainer), take emotions out of the equation and have a sit down conversation stating the facts (from both sides). Let the breeder tell you what they would offer/do for you. After you hear where they stand, you decide.

In the pointing dog world, yes, they should be bird crazy at this age - any breed. Some setters do develop a little slow, but not to the extreme you are describing. Sometimes life lessons teach us a great deal for the next step we take. If you pursue another dog, I would highly suggest you build a relationship with individuals that have first hand knowledge of the breed(s) you are looking for. Attend some tests, trials, etc. and see what these dogs should be doing. Connect with people that have knowledge to help you. I'd be glad to offer some unbiased recommendations of people in your "area" for you to talk to.

[PntrRookie]

I love setters...here is my derby at 11 months...

http://youtu.be/pHSQ7R78U90

[shags]

You don't say exactly what you've done with this dog for training yourself, and you don't know what the breeder/trainer has done. Except for a totally inappropriate reaction which you witnessed. God only knows what else they did.

Dollars to donuts this dog is a slow starter and has shut down due to pressure. The reactions you describe are abnormal for any breed of dog. Someone messed your dog up, and it'll take a lot of patience to get him back. See your other thread.

[Hairofthebear]

The pup was $850 and later others said the breeder raised champions and was about the best there was in the NW. (heard this from several). I don't know what training is except taking a dog out and letting it run in the field. I don't know how to teach a dog to hunt birds and be interested. I've done the bird wing thing and put a chukar in the grass for him to find, but nada. Shouldn't there be some degree of instinct? There were quail almost each time in front of us and the dog acted like they weren't there. The owner is an older man who can't train like he used to because of health problems. But he started the business and has thousands of acres of land he leases out to bird hunters. His daughter (60) does all the training. There is a son who travels the country doing field trials and he is the one who took one look at the dog at 7 months and said he had no motivation to hunt and they should keep the dog for two months.....but didn't charge for any training. After two months with this woman I couldn't see one thing. It was then that I witnessed her teaching my dog to not bite (never bit me). I think she was very frustrated with the dog and she took it out on him. But she was telling me on the phone how he has progressed.....except she couldn't show me. I think what I will do is ask for my money back or if that doesn't work ask them to take the dog back and I will take the loss. I don't want it for a pet....too frustrated.

[rinker]

I have read this post a couple of times and I will make a recommendation. Find someone in your area that has some experience with bird dogs, it would be nice if they had experience with setters. First, tell them about your dog's pedigree. They should know immediately if the dog comes from solid hunting lines. Second, Let them work the dog for a few minutes, take a little walk with the dog and watch him run, let them see what he does when he contacts a bird, etc...

There are two probable outcomes. First, it may be that you are new to all of this and don't know what you are doing or seeing, and you need a little coaching. If that's the case, don't worry about it, we all started somewhere.

Second, the dog just doesn't have it. This could be from genetics, but even well bred dogs sometimes just don't have it, for some reason. If this turns out to be the case, I would recommend that you politely ask the breeder for a refund. If he gives it to you, that's great. If he doesn't, find the pup a good pet home somewhere, and forget the whole thing ever happened. When you go to find your next pup or adult dog, find someone experienced to help you.

I hope that you haven't wasted $850 and a lot of time, but it's possible. I sure wish that I had only wasted $850, over the years.

[Hairofthebear]

Thanks Rinker. You gave some thoughtful insights and suggestions. I met a Brittany dog owner recently who went with me to the breeder to see how the dog did in the field. He is a field judge at the national level and he made the comment that my dog acted like he didn't know what to do, meaning he wasn't showing any hunting motivation or bird interest. I can't get him to speak for me as he has strong relations with the breeder. He knows something is wrong, but doesn't want to tell the trainer this when the trainer has told me that everything is going great. He is in a tough position and feels I should ask the owner to take the dog back. There is a disconnect between the kennel owner and his daughter who trains the dogs. I don't think he knows what is really going on as he is pretty old with lots of health issues. He has turned over operations to his daughter who is churning out good dogs, except I don't think she knows what to do with my dog. She won't admit there is any problem, but others see it. I'm hoping he offers to assess it for a period or time. Then I have the option of mailing him a signed release and not asking him to give me any of my money back. Maybe he would do that anyway. At least the dog has a chance to get trained where there is birds everywhere and maybe they can find an owner for it. The daughter keeps saying it will be a fine bird dog and since the majority of dogs they sell they train first then it shouldn't be a problem for them.

[rinker]

It sounds like your mind is made up. Ask the fellow to take the dog back and give you a refund. If he does, that's great. If he doesn't, then find the dog a pet home and learn from the whole experience. Get some help from someone with a little experience before you start over.

[Soarer31]

Hang on a minute ...
Going by what your saying you got no experience in training pointers , Give the dog a few more months, you got nothing more to loose anyway
Here's something to think about....
Got a 9 month old EP straight out of a show ring (had won acouple puppy stakes).this dog didn't know the difference between a quail and a house brick, no prey drive what so ever, retrieved nothing, the biggest body of water he ever seen was his water bowl so wouldn't put his toe in a lake let a lone swim in one
Anyway the first few months kept home and did just obedience training and retrieving (ff) once I had that down pat I let him loose , in the beginning he would walk along by me , slowly slowly he started ventureing out ferther to 300m +
Now he runs around like crazy!!points birds, foxs , rabbits , anything his nose senses he points AND loves swimming after ducks, now I'm introducing him to the gun
He is 18months old now , don't know if he'll win a field trial though(hope one day)but I'm sure he'll make a great hunting buddy
Tell yea though , comming from a show ring he looks like a million bucks!

[rkappes]

I love setters...here is my derby at 11 months...

http://youtu.be/pHSQ7R78U90

Dude! Nice dog.

[PntrRookie]

Thanks. The reason I posted that video was for "Hairofthebear" to see natural instincts - as he called it. Hairofthebear's pup seems to have a lot of history in just the short 10 months on this earth...most, to no fault of his own. That video (and the first photo below) are all natural and for the first year of his life, I just let him be. His neck collar is for obedience ONLY - no bird work correction used around his neck.



I am fortunate enough to have an older dog that I can trial and hunt, which allows me to have ZERO expectations for this puppy for the first 10-12 months. Once we saw his pointing instincts, ability to listen/handle, and his desire to learn, we began the work on his bird manners. Here he is with a flank collar for bird/who work, which we just began at 16-17 months.

IMG_20150202_162055-1.jpg

[Dirty Dawger]

OMG......Greg, that dog in the video is good for the soul!!!
Whatever you're doing, keep it up!
As for the OP, waiting out a dog is always a risk. I guess it depends on how long you want to wait it out but as you know, we or our family can get attached to a dog. Further to this, once you have waited the dog out, what do you do if it is inconclusive OR you decide it's not going to work out? Chances of taking it back to the breeder are compromised to say the least.
I feel bad for you. This is just not what getting a new dog should be all about. Sometimes folk just "settle" with what they have for some 12-15 years. It just doesn't seem right to me and you can often hear the tell-tale signs that go something like, "Yeah...yeah.... he's not perfect but we sure love him....."
There are tons of folk out there that love their non-working dogs but I'm guessing you bought this setter because you wanted more than just a pet.
This dog could blossom late and turn into an awesome dog. Do you feel lucky?

[PntrRookie]

Hairofthebear...check your PMs