Gun Dog Forum

Dog has been through ff and has been doing great but recently he has been playing with birds and started crunching birds on the retrieve. Any ideas how to fix this. I have taken a step backwards and re did ff but It only fixed the playing with birds and not the crunching. He has always been a soft mouth dog but im not sure how he developed this and how to fix it.

I forgot to mention but I have tried smacking his bottem jaw when he crunches but it doesn't help because he has such a high pain tolerance

lion county has a harness to strap around bird that has spikes on it. if dog put to much pres.. on bird he fells the spikes.. don't really know how good this works but worth a try

I'd be afraid that that unit might make the dog not want to pick up birds at all. I'd take a few steps back on the FF table.

setterpoint wrote:lion county has a harness to strap around bird that has spikes on it. if dog put to much pres.. on bird he fells the spikes.. don't really know how good this works but worth a try

I used one of these some years ago on a hard mouth dog it took a few times but got the job done

I am looking forward to reading the answers to this because I have no certain ones. I.M.O. the way to stop hard mouth is to isolate it's original cause then try to work onwards from there while missing out the cue that makes the dog hard mouthed. In this country I have heard of all sorts of "jaggy" things used to stop the crunch. Personally, I couldn't do that to a dog and question how effective they are anyway since all of these jaggy things depend on a human having attached them to a bird thus changing the scent a dog would receive during a "natural" game retrieve.

I think dogs come in several mental modes as regards hard mouth. Some just are naturally hard mouthed, some are simply a bit unlucky and after an encounter or two with a wildly kicking pheasant and it's spurs become hard mouthed and some handlers could be making their own dogs anxious enough as they retrieve to make the dogs bite down.
I do not think all "cures" would work on all dogs because the root cause of the hard mouth is different from dog to dog.

Just my thoughts, I look forward to reading the others.

Bill T.

I am going to give the harness a try with live chukars and see how it goes. He doesnt crunch on bumpers but when it comes to birds its a different story. From what I read from my dog it seems like I can stop him from crunching but I just need more pressure than just smacking his bottem jaw. Thats not enough pressure to stop him from crunching.

I have even thought of giving him a nick everytime he crunches while not letting him spit it out but im afraid it might ruin the dog more

I had a soft mouthed dog that had a wounded pheasant with a broken wing run the wing bone through his cheek. He continued to be a great retriever but he never delivered a live bird again.

Define "crunching". Does he simply kill the bird which is no sin, or does he crush the bones in the bird so it is inedible?

gonehuntin' wrote:Define "crunching". Does he simply kill the bird which is no sin, or does he crush the bones in the bird so it is inedible?

He crunches the bird so its inedible

chrisss wrote:Dog has been through ff and has been doing great but recently he has been playing with birds and started crunching birds on the retrieve. Any ideas how to fix this. I have taken a step backwards and re did ff but It only fixed the playing with birds and not the crunching. He has always been a soft mouth dog but im not sure how he developed this and how to fix it.

Question(s)-
Dog collar trained (?)
If so-
How many times have you used collar pressure with an object, (or birds) in dogs mouth (?)
How did FF' go.., did you do it or pro?

Dog has been collared trained. FF went great and I did it myself with a help from some trainers. I haven't used any collar pressure yet but I have thought of it to stop the crunching.

chrisss wrote:Dog has been collared trained. FF went great and I did it myself with a help from some trainers. I haven't used any collar pressure yet but I have thought of it to stop the crunching.

No (NO!!)
Don't think of that anymore.
If anything -
Re-enforce HERE on a return in an effort to take away time the dog has to crunch. Destroyed birds are one thing, but the lack of perfectly timed collar pressure with birds in dogs mouth can exaserbate the issue.
You did teach the dog to HOLD and DROP right (?).

He developed the crunching after the hunting season. I had him holding live ducks during his first ff and he would drop also.

Go back to the start of FF and teach it this time with hard object's. 1' hardwood dowel, to a frozen bird thawed enough to get the head and neck loose and when it's perfect there, on to a fresh killed bird. I doubt bumping it under the chin is going to help even a little. That should be way back in the beginning. Very early on most dogs mouth the dowel, that is they don't hold it firmly. Leave it go and your gonna be picking dowel's up off the floor. Then when the dog starts trying to drop it is when to bump it under the chin with your hand. Just enough to get it to hold it firmly. Next step most chomp down on the dowel, that's why the dowel in the first place, it cam only chomp so far and with time, it will quit doing that. Next is the frozen bird. Get's the dog used to feathers but the bird being frozen, the dog can't chomp through it. Skip the frozen bird and use a fresh killed bird here, if the dog chomp's it is not going to get into something it might choose to eat. By the time you have got to the fresh killed bird the dog should retrieve very well, if not, your getting ahead of yourself. The purpose of the fresh killed bird is nothing more than getting a dead warm bird in the dog's mouth. Please, don't put spike's in your dog's mouth. Some wrap a bird with barb wire, don't do that. Don't risk hurting the dog! In fact, it's just as likely to teach the dog not to even pick up birds because in hurt's in the mouth. Think about it, your asking the dog to put in it's mouth something that could hurt it to try and get it to stop crunching! Why should the dog pick it up the second or third time? I wouldn't!

You, know I've worked with dog's like that and I'm telling you right now, take him to a pro that HAS CONTROLLED dog's like this. You will never cure him. Best you can do is control him. It's so involved it's a topic for a professional retriever trainer only.

gonehuntin' wrote:You, know I've worked with dog's like that and I'm telling you right now, take him to a pro that HAS CONTROLLED dog's like this. You will never cure him. Best you can do is control him. It's so involved it's a topic for a professional retriever trainer only.

+1

Any recommendations as in trainers? I live in the metro area of Minnesota

chrisss wrote:Any recommendations as in trainers? I live in the metro area of Minnesota

What breed is this giving you hash when delivering a bird - have I missed it? As for your question above, turns out Polmaise has a friend in that area who could fly him (Polmaise) over for a lesson or two in taking care of your hardmouth problem - without the e-collar. Hopefully it's not one of his friend's breedings...or breed...or "nationality" of breed...

MG

Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

chrisss wrote:Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

Great! Now if all the frozen birds you choot come with nails protruding from the carcass you will have something to thaw and eat! Hard mouth dogs are not rehabilitated in the length of time that an internet thread is alive on a forum. The behavior has it's roots in the dogs genome, the behavior can be controlled over time but one should never think it is cured. Never breed this individual.

gundogguy wrote:

chrisss wrote:Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

Great! Now if all the frozen birds you choot come with nails protruding from the carcass you will have something to thaw and eat! Hard mouth dogs are not rehabilitated in the length of time that an internet thread is alive on a forum. The behavior has it's roots in the dogs genome, the behavior can be controlled over time but one should never think it is cured. Never breed this individual.

+1

gundogguy wrote:

chrisss wrote:Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

Great! Now if all the frozen birds you choot come with nails protruding from the carcass you will have something to thaw and eat! Hard mouth dogs are not rehabilitated in the length of time that an internet thread is alive on a forum. The behavior has it's roots in the dogs genome, the behavior can be controlled over time but one should never think it is cured. Never breed this individual.

Sorry looks like part of it got cut off. This problem wasn't genetics because I talked to the breeder and as he remembers both parents and great grand parents never had this problem. This was something that my dog picked up recently. How I ended up stopping the problem was by starting with a frozen chukar with blunt nails and when he did crunch I would pinch his lip into his teeth while sayin nooo and hold. He stop crunching within 2 minutes but I repeated this process for 2 days. Then I changed it over to a regular frozen chukar and notice just a little crunching so I caught him when he crunched and pinched the jaw again and again. Within 2 training session he stopped crunching. I then changed it over to fresh dead chukar and repeated the process and with different fresh killed birds, after that I went to a live pigeon and their were no crunching. I did some extensive retrieval training yesterday with only fresh dead bird and he did great just like before. Not a single crunch bird. He did try to crunch during the delivery but I would reinforce wih the pinch while bird was in mouth and saying noo and hold. During this post I stopped all training and only focused on this process training for about 15 minutes 3-4 times a day. Not a single retrieve was given until after he stopped crunching.

I forgot to mention I only went with this process because my dog is a very hard head, high prey drive and high pain tolerance type.

Nice work Chriss. Hope it works out for you. You can never let off on him even if you're hunting. Never tolerate it; it'll probably never disappear.

chrisss wrote:

gundogguy wrote:

chrisss wrote:Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

This problem wasn't genetics because I talked to the breeder and as he remembers both parents and great grand parents never had this problem. This was something that my dog picked up recently. How I ended up stopping the problem was by starting with a frozen chukar with blunt nails and when he did crunch I would pinch his lip into his teeth while sayin nooo and hold. He stop crunching within 2 minutes but I repeated this process for 2 days. Then I changed it over to a regular frozen chukar and notice just a little crunching so I caught him when he crunched and pinched the jaw again and again. Within 2 training session he stopped crunching. I then changed it over to fresh dead chukar and repeated the process and with different fresh killed birds, after that I went to a live pigeon and their were no crunching. I did some extensive retrieval training yesterday with only fresh dead bird and he did great just like before. Not a single crunch bird. He did try to crunch during the delivery but I would reinforce wih the pinch while bird was in mouth and saying noo and hold. During this post I stopped all training and only focused on this process training for about 15 minutes 3-4 times a day. Not a single retrieve was given until after he stopped crunching.

Well that makes it all better. You really need to do a little research on genetics. Affected and Carriers are what we get into here. Affected dogs carry the gene and physically demonstrate the behavior. Carriers do not necessarily exhibit the behavior or physical condition however they can carry the behavior and may pass it on to pups.
The same as Dysplasia or PRA or any condition that the good breeder is going to do their best to stay away from dogs that are carriers.
Hard mouth is one of those insidious behaviors that can lurk in any blood line and show it self at exactly the worse time. Personally I would not fault your breeder unless they have had many dogs in their program..and they are not forth coming with pertinent information.

Concerning all tough stuff you mention about your dogs pain tolerances and prey drive. If you back tie his head to a post you will able to desenstise him to the pressure needed to learn a proper hold. Tough dogs are really just a matter of tough thinking by the trainer, FF is about who wins in the struggle for dominance...no way should a dog be able to out think a human.
Best of luck!

chrisss wrote:I forgot to mention I only went with this process because my dog is a very hard head, high prey drive and high pain tolerance type.

Two wrongs never made a Right.

I went out to a game farm today and shot 7 pheasants with him retrieving all 7. Not a single crunch from him and 4 was still alive when delivered to hand.

chrisss wrote:I went out to a game farm today and shot 7 pheasants with him retrieving all 7. Not a single crunch from him and 4 was still alive when delivered to hand.

That's fantastic !
Perhaps , the dog didn't have a hard mouth after all ?..Just something 'different' ?

chrisss wrote:

gundogguy wrote:

chrisss wrote:Thanks for the help. I decided to insert blunt nail in a frozen chukar and slowly transition into a jaw pinch every time he crunched down and saying no and hold. It has stopped his crunching problem.

Great! Now if all the frozen birds you choot come with nails protruding from the carcass you will have something to thaw and eat! Hard mouth dogs are not rehabilitated in the length of time that an internet thread is alive on a forum. The behavior has it's roots in the dogs genome, the behavior can be controlled over time but one should never think it is cured. Never breed this individual.

Sorry looks like part of it got cut off. This problem wasn't genetics because I talked to the breeder and as he remembers both parents and great grand parents never had this problem. This was something that my dog picked up recently. How I ended up stopping the problem was by starting with a frozen chukar with blunt nails and when he did crunch I would pinch his lip into his teeth while sayin nooo and hold. He stop crunching within 2 minutes but I repeated this process for 2 days. Then I changed it over to a regular frozen chukar and notice just a little crunching so I caught him when he crunched and pinched the jaw again and again. Within 2 training session he stopped crunching. I then changed it over to fresh dead chukar and repeated the process and with different fresh killed birds, after that I went to a live pigeon and their were no crunching. I did some extensive retrieval training yesterday with only fresh dead bird and he did great just like before. Not a single crunch bird. He did try to crunch during the delivery but I would reinforce wih the pinch while bird was in mouth and saying noo and hold. During this post I stopped all training and only focused on this process training for about 15 minutes 3-4 times a day. Not a single retrieve was given until after he stopped crunching.

Good work! Very creative.

polmaise wrote:

chrisss wrote:I went out to a game farm today and shot 7 pheasants with him retrieving all 7. Not a single crunch from him and 4 was still alive when delivered to hand.

That's fantastic !
Perhaps , the dog didn't have a hard mouth after all ?..Just something 'different' ?

Thats what I am thinking now. He has always been a dog that like to test his limits and find new ways to do it. This might just have been a test for me to put him back into place. Or maybe I was able to stop it before it became a permanent habit?

polmaise wrote:

chrisss wrote:I went out to a game farm today and shot 7 pheasants with him retrieving all 7. Not a single crunch from him and 4 was still alive when delivered to hand.

That's fantastic !
Perhaps , the dog didn't have a hard mouth after all ?..Just something 'different' ?

That is what I was thinking also.

Charlie

He used to crunch birds so bad that the guts would come out and flatten the birds into a pancake