11 week old puppy seeing his first pigeon

[FlyingDutchman]

clip-wing....getting him excited.

https://youtu.be/SvOwFIpjINw

[marysburg]

Looks like you two are going to have a lot of fun this summer. Nice pup.

[FlyingDutchman]

Thanks. sort of feeling this out at I go.
I'm trying to follow the George Hickox plan via DVD. A few things I'm unclear about that maybe someone would clarify for me:

1. GH recommends introducing birds early (before 12 weeks) and then gun conditioning when they'll chase clip wings with intensity. I think I'm there based on this vid. Should I slowly introduce the gun now? (planning to go .22, 410, then shotgun at decreasing distance each over a few days)?

2. If so, once I've done this, I'm still at least 2-3 months away from starting e-collar conditioning. Do I, in the meantime, just continue with the basic obedience I'm doing (kennel, here, halt (woah), stay) and nothing more?

In other words, without getting into formal training work on a collar, how much should I do with birds between now and July?



I want to respect his just being a puppy, but I've also started the ball rolling on getting his prey drive going and I want to make sure I keep the momentum up.

[kcbullets]

Personally I don't intro the gun until pups are 6 months old, but I know others do. I don't like to rush it. I would let him carry the bird around and be proud of it. I wouldn't take it away until after petting him and letting him realize you won't take it from him immediately.

I would use more birds as his boldness allows. Birds make a bird dog. The more the better as long as introduced properly.

[ezzy333]

Personally I don't intro the gun until pups are 6 months old, but I know others do. I don't like to rush it. I would let him carry the bird around and be proud of it. I wouldn't take it away until after petting him and letting him realize you won't take it from him immediately.

I would use more birds as his boldness allows. Birds make a bird dog. The more the better as long as introduced properly.

I have never seen a good puppy that needed it's desire, or prey drive as people like to call it now, woke up by throwing birds around. I always turned one or two loose and let the pup find them and do what ever he decides to do. But after a couple of those they get no more till they are old enough to find them, and that may be 2 or 3 months down the road. I am not sure what you are teaching a young pup other than to chase, catch, and chew on a bird. If you have native birds let it find those on your walks in the field and if there aren't any you could throw a couple of pigeons in the cover for it. This should probably happen around 3 to 4 months and that is when I would introduce a 20 gauge shotgun.

This works for me and I don't waste a lot of pigeons by throwing them and letting the pup kill them. I want a pup to find birds and let me do ALL of the killing.

Ezzy

[Becassier]

Thanks. sort of feeling this out at I go.
I'm trying to follow the George Hickox plan via DVD. A few things I'm unclear about that maybe someone would clarify for me:

1. GH recommends introducing birds early (before 12 weeks) and then gun conditioning when they'll chase clip wings with intensity. I think I'm there based on this vid. Should I slowly introduce the gun now? (planning to go .22, 410, then shotgun at decreasing distance each over a few days)?

2. If so, once I've done this, I'm still at least 2-3 months away from starting e-collar conditioning. Do I, in the meantime, just continue with the basic obedience I'm doing (kennel, here, halt (woah), stay) and nothing more?

In other words, without getting into formal training work on a collar, how much should I do with birds between now and July?

I personally would never use a 22. if your talking live ammo. The crack of a pistol or rifle is not the sound I'm looking for, if you don't have a blank gun just increase the distance with the 410. I always use a helper that is out in the open at a safe the distance, visible to both myself and the pup while I work the pup with birds or another fun item. The helper is instructed to only shoot when and if I raise my hand to indicate get ready and wait and watch me, the shot comes the minute I drop my hand. I agree I try not to over use the birds, but that depends on you personal goals. For me It's all about developing the search. Using too many easy birds can in some cases create problems .

Without knowing your personal goals (Wild bird hunting or Pheasant Preserves), and the temperament of your pup I would tell you to go out and have fun. Personally I don’t start formal training until I have to put the GPS on my young dog.

You can't point, you can't retrieve, what you can't find.. You have to have search

This is coming from a Grouse and Woodcock hunter.

[FlyingDutchman]

Without knowing your personal goals (Wild bird hunting or Pheasant Preserves), and the temperament of your pup I would tell you to go out and have fun.

My goals are entirely centered on having him point grouse and woodcock.

[Becassier]

Without knowing your personal goals (Wild bird hunting or Pheasant Preserves), and the temperament of your pup I would tell you to go out and have fun.

My goals are entirely centered on having him point grouse and woodcock.

We are in MI and our quiet time (for nesting) starts on April 15th and ends July 7th, we can not run a dog off leash during those times on state/federal land. If you don't have a quiet time try and run your pup in places you wouldn't think nesting birds will be.. Over grown woods, by creeks as much as you can. Remember always make sure he is safe from roads, get a Garmin Astro and let him develop his search.

Encourage the pup to run for you, developing it's independence ~ save the e-collar for later; after it's developed it's independence.
Good bird dogs are bred with the instinct to hunt..

[FlyingDutchman]

yeah no quiet time here and I live on 10 acres of fairly old growth forest. Not a lot of Grouse on the land (the dogs probably don't make it a great place to hang anyway), but we do have several streams and a lot to explore. still trying to figure out what to do about my chickens....fenced in I'm sure they'll be fine, but I don't want him to get "used to birds" and get bored. Thoughts on that?

[mnaj_springer]

He'll figure out the difference between your chickens and game birds, based on YOUR behavior (carrying a gun, etc.). I wouldn't worry about it.

[ezzy333]

yeah no quiet time here and I live on 10 acres of fairly old growth forest. Not a lot of Grouse on the land (the dogs probably don't make it a great place to hang anyway), but we do have several streams and a lot to explore. still trying to figure out what to do about my chickens....fenced in I'm sure they'll be fine, but I don't want him to get "used to birds" and get bored. Thoughts on that?

Dogs don't get bored by birds unless you over use them for training.

[polmaise]

yeah no quiet time here and I live on 10 acres of fairly old growth forest. Not a lot of Grouse on the land (the dogs probably don't make it a great place to hang anyway), but we do have several streams and a lot to explore. still trying to figure out what to do about my chickens....fenced in I'm sure they'll be fine, but I don't want him to get "used to birds" and get bored. Thoughts on that?

A lion can sleep under a shady tree as a herd of zebra go by ! It just ain't hunting .



Depends on how you 'shape' them?.

[Becassier]

yeah no quiet time here and I live on 10 acres of fairly old growth forest. Not a lot of Grouse on the land (the dogs probably don't make it a great place to hang anyway), but we do have several streams and a lot to explore. still trying to figure out what to do about my chickens....fenced in I'm sure they'll be fine, but I don't want him to get "used to birds" and get bored. Thoughts on that?

They know the difference, he will do fine on wild birds.. When the water gets warmer get yourself a bag of Cheetos, the white ones not orange ones (they stain your hands).. Throw them in the streams, the pup will chase after them.. Don't sweat the small stuff, on your walks don't say anything and stay out of the way. Do yourself a favor and go to www.steadywithstyle.com and read.. When you get back from your runs read it again..

[FlyingDutchman]

https://youtu.be/CgOXjpFz7_E

on to the pigeon pole

[ezzy333]

https://youtu.be/CgOXjpFz7_E

on to the pigeon pole

Explain a pigeon pole, how you use it, and what do you expect the results to be as far as improving your pup?

[PntrRookie]

https://youtu.be/CgOXjpFz7_E

IMO you have a very stylish young setter that no doubt has drive for birds. I would hide those pigeons in cover, have him "hunt for them" reach out to find them (try to keep silent - it is hard ) then just let the pup be a pup. As others have stated I would hold off any and all bird dog training until at least 6 months of age. You see what he has (he isn't going to loose it). Teach the puppy basics now...here, no, crate, potty training, no, here, no, here, etc... and just let him be a puppy. Take him on walks and get some recall in him. Let him explore on his own and build independence. Just my opinion. Ezzy if you need to understand pigeon pole there was a nice thread right here. viewtopic.php?f=89&t=29927

[Sharon]

Well said.

[polmaise]

Never did like that idea of the pole?>
Couldn't get my head round it ,from the dogs perspective.
Probably made sense to some ,but hey' if it works it works.

[ezzy333]

https://youtu.be/CgOXjpFz7_E

IMO you have a very stylish young setter that no doubt has drive for birds. I would hide those pigeons in cover, have him "hunt for them" reach out to find them (try to keep silent - it is hard ) then just let the pup be a pup. As others have stated I would hold off any and all bird dog training until at least 6 months of age. You see what he has (he isn't going to loose it). Teach the puppy basics now...here, no, crate, potty training, no, here, no, here, etc... and just let him be a puppy. Take him on walks and get some recall in him. Let him explore on his own and build independence. Just my opinion. Ezzy if you need to understand pigeon pole there was a nice thread right here. viewtopic.php?f=89&t=29927

I have to admit I was more interested if he knew what and how and why. I think my concern is that I am in full agreement with two of the best trainers I know.

by snips » 23 Jun 2011, 12:32




tailcrackin wrote:
There is more minuses to pigeon poles, than pluses, usually. When you have dogs, birds, an strings, you usually have a mess. If you watch the video on the work, the video shows alot of negative dog reaction, with pigeon pole bird. You watch dogs reaction, after the initial...or the bird that flew off, he looks excited, and focused. If you watch an focus on the dog, and the pigeon pole bird, he is dang close...if not blinking the bird. That is also disussed on another board, the dog will always tell you what is up, if you listen. If you think on things, the birdthat gets gone, shows alot better dog response than the one used to torment, or tease the dog. That way of presentation, is not a natural, that you will get from any kind of pen, or wild bird, I wonder.....why put a dog in that sort of situation? Dog shows me, that we are on same page, imo, Thanks Jonesy

+2

And this plus 2 was from Brenda Roe so I am just adding a +3.

[FlyingDutchman]

you know, being new to this I don't have strong opinions. I have a neighbor who has started a crap-ton of nice pointing dogs and I went over to his place today thinking I'd hide some pigeons in cover and let the puppy just find and chase them. But we talked and he made very nice and helpful suggestions and I thought 'what the heck'. It was fun. It was a one time thing, and he's 12 weeks old so I guess I thought if anything it would just be fun for him.

He's doing really well on: here, kennel, stand, stay. I'm not putting any pressure on him at all (aside from potty training). Just clicker training the basics and treating him with left-over Easter ham.


My understanding is that the pigeon pole is basically half-way in between sight-pointing and actually understanding birds; that a 12 week old puppy gets a good sense of what an actual bird is without being asked to find the bird by scent before it fully understands what is being asked of it. Whether or not this is true, I don't know. He started pointing from further out after a few minutes and next time think I'll drop birds in cover and let the fly.
Am I making a mistake? Maybe (I'm sure I'll make lots). Suggestions are always appreciated and the above thoughts are great.
Thanks everyone!

[shags]

My trainer did the same thing. A time or two of sight pointing doesn't seem to hurt anything. The pole works great for baby pups because the pigeons can't fly off before the pup spots them, and they don't have to be dizzied so hard that the pup can grab them. Soon the grass in the area of the pole will be high enough to provide enough cover that the pup will have to start using his nose.
It doesn't take but a few times out for pups to figure out how to hunt the area. They learn that where the handler is, birds are, and that really makes it easier for the trainer in the next steps of development. Then the pole goes away until it's time to steady the dog up on a cc. Once he understands the concept of stop/steady, it's an easy transition to larger more natural areas.
Don't overdo bird exposure and/or training to one small area, like that around the pole. Dogs pretty quick figure out the game and can get really sticky and begin pointing the situation rather than birds.