VIDEO: Reintroducing Ann to Pigeon

[love2hunt]

My Llewellin pup, Ann, was introduced to a pigeon at 10 weeks, but was a little intimidated by it. I decided to give it some time before I tried again. I tried to do what was described in the HuntSmith Puppy Development 1 training DVD and just let her build confidence. As you can see in the video, she didn't know what to do at first. By the time I picked it up, though, she was all about it!

https://youtu.be/18Hxj8XjfKo

[mnaj_springer]

Question: What's the reasoning for the harness on the pigeon?

[love2hunt]

Question: What's the reasoning for the harness on the pigeon?

The last time we showed her a pigeon, we let it flap and it spooked her. I wanted to make sure she built some confidence first before I let it flap around her again. You can see in the first part of the video how she was. She was like that for about the first five minutes. Definitely glad I put that harness on.

[CDN_Cocker]

Saw you have a cocker as well. How old?

[NEhomer]

Pretty pup. My Llewellin's the same age.

[love2hunt]

Saw you have a cocker as well. How old?

I just sold him to a guy in GA. He's is almost 2, however!

Pretty pup. My Llewellin's the same age.

Nice! I'm not used to the timidity. My Cocker was obviously not (is there such thing as a timid Cocker lol?), and my squirrel/coon dogs definitely weren't either. I am, however, loving the sweet temperament.

[Sharon]

Question: What's the reasoning for the harness on the pigeon?

The last time we showed her a pigeon, we let it flap and it spooked her. I wanted to make sure she built some confidence first before I let it flap around her again. You can see in the first part of the video how she was. She was like that for about the first five minutes. Definitely glad I put that harness on.

You're obviously really attuned to where your dog is at . Thumbs up.

[SetterNut]

Question: What's the reasoning for the harness on the pigeon?

The last time we showed her a pigeon, we let it flap and it spooked her. I wanted to make sure she built some confidence first before I let it flap around her again. You can see in the first part of the video how she was. She was like that for about the first five minutes. Definitely glad I put that harness on.

You're obviously really attuned to where your dog is at . Thumbs up.

You made a wise decision. You could see how much her confidence went up by the end of the video. Carrying the bird around and showing off. When you have one that is a little uncertain, it pays to feel things out first.

[love2hunt]

The last time we showed her a pigeon, we let it flap and it spooked her. I wanted to make sure she built some confidence first before I let it flap around her again. You can see in the first part of the video how she was. She was like that for about the first five minutes. Definitely glad I put that harness on.

You're obviously really attuned to where your dog is at . Thumbs up.

You made a wise decision. You could see how much her confidence went up by the end of the video. Carrying the bird around and showing off. When you have one that is a little uncertain, it pays to feel things out first.

Thanks for the kind words y'all! Luckily for Ann, I have gotten rid of most of my training impatience thru my last couple hunting dogs. We've got a long road ahead without having to rush it!

[ezzy333]

I didn't see Ann do anything that wasn't normal for a pointing pup. her instinct is to point and not catch or chase. She saw the bird and slowly tried to decide how to handle it. She did it and did it well. I just don't see much timidity but rather just caution. I am not saying it is the way to do it but most of my pups get to see a unrestricted pigeon when they are 6 or 7 weeks old and from then on their next contact will normally be a pheasant they find in the field. I nave seen pups fall over backward when the bird flushes but have never seen a problem develop as it is just a step they go through and by the second or third bird they find I will usually get a point and a chase when it flushes. But most act just like your pup on the original contact.

Ezzy

[love2hunt]

I didn't see Ann do anything that wasn't normal for a pointing pup. her instinct is to point and not catch or chase. She saw the bird and slowly tried to decide how to handle it. She did it and did it well. I just don't see much timidity but rather just caution. I am not saying it is the way to do it but most of my pups get to see a unrestricted pigeon when they are 6 or 7 weeks old and from then on their next contact will normally be a pheasant they find in the field. I nave seen pups fall over backward when the bird flushes but have never seen a problem develop as it is just a step they go through and by the second or third bird they find I will usually get a point and a chase when it flushes. But most act just like your pup on the original contact.

Ezzy

Caution is definitely a better descriptor for this pigeon. The first pigeon at 10 weeks had her cowering behind my legs, but this time was more "what the heck is that?!" followed by "hey, I like this thing!"

[DonF]

Reason for the harness should be obvious. But I'm not sure why so many people want to rush their pup into bird's? There is so much you can do with her without throwing down a bird for her to maul. Question, when she's older do you want her to rush in and grab the bird? That is what your teaching her now! I think most people would say they'd fix it later but don't do it in the first place and no need to fix it later! Other's claim they are waking up the prey drive. No decent bird dog need's to have the prey drive brought out, at the proper time it will come out on it's own. If it doesn't, you need to find another source for puppy's.

Imagine you have a baby son/daughter. Your hope for them is that they grow up to be a brain surgeon. Are you gonna start having them open up head's at two or even five years old? Of course not, the baby has to mature! So does your puppy unless you really like fixing error's made in introduction of different things.

[mnaj_springer]

Reason for the harness should be obvious. But I'm not sure why so many people want to rush their pup into bird's? There is so much you can do with her without throwing down a bird for her to maul. Question, when she's older do you want her to rush in and grab the bird? That is what your teaching her now! I think most people would say they'd fix it later but don't do it in the first place and no need to fix it later! Other's claim they are waking up the prey drive. No decent bird dog need's to have the prey drive brought out, at the proper time it will come out on it's own. If it doesn't, you need to find another source for puppy's.

Imagine you have a baby son/daughter. Your hope for them is that they grow up to be a brain surgeon. Are you gonna start having them open up head's at two or even five years old? Of course not, the baby has to mature! So does your puppy unless you really like fixing error's made in introduction of different things.

Don, first I'd like to say I respect your contributions to this forum. But on this occassion I disagree. There's a dog I saw recently, good looking Brit that's about a year old. This dog was never "introduced" to birds, but still pointed pheasants. The issue is this dog would not pick up a bird to save his life. Why? Maybe intimidation, maybe he didn't like the oily feathers, who knows. But those problems can be avoided with a proper "introduction," IMO. You may not let a future brain surgeon open up someone's skull, but you might teach them the words "head" and "brain." You know?

Also, the harness doesn't seem obvious to me. Most birds I hunt don't have a harness wrapped around them.... Why not just lock the wings?

[ezzy333]

Reason for the harness should be obvious. But I'm not sure why so many people want to rush their pup into bird's? There is so much you can do with her without throwing down a bird for her to maul. Question, when she's older do you want her to rush in and grab the bird? That is what your teaching her now! I think most people would say they'd fix it later but don't do it in the first place and no need to fix it later! Other's claim they are waking up the prey drive. No decent bird dog need's to have the prey drive brought out, at the proper time it will come out on it's own. If it doesn't, you need to find another source for puppy's.

Imagine you have a baby son/daughter. Your hope for them is that they grow up to be a brain surgeon. Are you gonna start having them open up head's at two or even five years old? Of course not, the baby has to mature! So does your puppy unless you really like fixing error's made in introduction of different things.

Don, first I'd like to say I respect your contributions to this forum. But on this occassion I disagree. There's a dog I saw recently, good looking Brit that's about a year old. This dog was never "introduced" to birds, but still pointed pheasants. The issue is this dog would not pick up a bird to save his life. Why? Maybe intimidation, maybe he didn't like the oily feathers, who knows. But those problems can be avoided with a proper "introduction," IMO. You may not let a future brain surgeon open up someone's skull, but you might teach them the words "head" and "brain." You know?

Also, the harness doesn't seem obvious to me. Most birds I hunt don't have a harness wrapped around them.... Why not just lock the wings?

Also, the harness doesn't seem obvious to me. Most birds I hunt don't have a harness wrapped around them.... Why not just lock the wings?

[/quote] How many birds with locked wings do you see when hunting? From my experience early contact has nothing to do with picking a bird up when it is dead. I have had dogs that had never seen a bird or heard a gun till they were three and had no problem with any of the hunting procedures and have had dogs that were around birds from a few weeks on and they wouldn't touch a dead bird till they were taught. The difference is in the dog. And I do agree with Don on this. I think everyone get too anxious and starts to soon and push too hard with most field training. A pup is a pup and doesn't become a bird dog pup till it is several months old. Exposure is good, continued exposure is bad.

JMO
Al

[polmaise]

Reason for the harness should be obvious. But I'm not sure why so many people want to rush their pup into bird's? There is so much you can do with her without throwing down a bird for her to maul. Question, when she's older do you want her to rush in and grab the bird? That is what your teaching her now! I think most people would say they'd fix it later but don't do it in the first place and no need to fix it later! Other's claim they are waking up the prey drive. No decent bird dog need's to have the prey drive brought out, at the proper time it will come out on it's own. If it doesn't, you need to find another source for puppy's.

+1
It can be confusing for some with the plethora of advice available from various successful/well known and unsuccessful/not known sources .
The ability to read the dog in front of you is an ever changing task for even the best of trainers.
Like DonF has implied ,the source of the pup should already have been established for the OP'S concerns.
The rest is just shaping behaviour required in preparation for what the breeding has produced.

[Trekmoor]

I'm with Don on this one. I have never deliberately let a really young pup have a live bird to play with. I've never found I needed to. I have seen pups, sometimes fairly old pups, jump back when they first encounter a live bird that cannot fly away , a few days or weeks later it is likely that the same pup will not back off from the bird.

Every dog I have ever owned has picked and retrieved both dead and still alive birds no matter whether or not they had an early encounter with a live bird. If it is in the pup to have a strong interest in birds then the pup will hunt for them, point or flush them . Sometimes the retrieving of birds needs some encouragement but the pup will sort out the rest all on it's own .

I do my best to let my pups find live birds but I want those birds to fly away.

Bill T.

[mnaj_springer]

Reason for the harness should be obvious. But I'm not sure why so many people want to rush their pup into bird's? There is so much you can do with her without throwing down a bird for her to maul. Question, when she's older do you want her to rush in and grab the bird? That is what your teaching her now! I think most people would say they'd fix it later but don't do it in the first place and no need to fix it later! Other's claim they are waking up the prey drive. No decent bird dog need's to have the prey drive brought out, at the proper time it will come out on it's own. If it doesn't, you need to find another source for puppy's.

Imagine you have a baby son/daughter. Your hope for them is that they grow up to be a brain surgeon. Are you gonna start having them open up head's at two or even five years old? Of course not, the baby has to mature! So does your puppy unless you really like fixing error's made in introduction of different things.

Don, first I'd like to say I respect your contributions to this forum. But on this occassion I disagree. There's a dog I saw recently, good looking Brit that's about a year old. This dog was never "introduced" to birds, but still pointed pheasants. The issue is this dog would not pick up a bird to save his life. Why? Maybe intimidation, maybe he didn't like the oily feathers, who knows. But those problems can be avoided with a proper "introduction," IMO. You may not let a future brain surgeon open up someone's skull, but you might teach them the words "head" and "brain." You know?

Also, the harness doesn't seem obvious to me. Most birds I hunt don't have a harness wrapped around them.... Why not just lock the wings?

Also, the harness doesn't seem obvious to me. Most birds I hunt don't have a harness wrapped around them.... Why not just lock the wings?

How many birds with locked wings do you see when hunting? From my experience early contact has nothing to do with picking a bird up when it is dead. I have had dogs that had never seen a bird or heard a gun till they were three and had no problem with any of the hunting procedures and have had dogs that were around birds from a few weeks on and they wouldn't touch a dead bird till they were taught. The difference is in the dog. And I do agree with Don on this. I think everyone get too anxious and starts to soon and push too hard with most field training. A pup is a pup and doesn't become a bird dog pup till it is several months old. Exposure is good, continued exposure is bad.

JMO
Al[/quote]

I'm not, nor was I ever, talking about field training. Just a puppy introduction. I've never seen any drawbacks to a proper intro in which the handler read the dog. I may be in the minority here, but I've reaped the benefits of the methods I've used, so I will continue to do so until they fail me.

[love2hunt]

Good heavens. Did bird dog training really just get compared to brain surgery? :roll:

Let me give y'all some perspective from a relative rookie. The bulk of people checking out this forum are guys training their first bird dog, or thinking about doing it. The way y'all jump on and correct some of these new guys is, in my opinion, unnecessary and excessive.

I say that not because I got my feelings hurt or because I'm offended. However, it is a consistent pattern I've picked up reading through the many posts on here. I say it in hopes that you regulars who express your opinions on dog training as absolute truth will take a gentler tone. Sometimes, it's alright to comment on a post and say "good looking dog!" and leave it at that.

I reckon the Smith fellas know what they're doing after grossing more than $2,000,000 teaching others their methods in seminars (a magazine quoted them as saying they'd trained over 5,000 people at $400/head...), not to mention the money made through their DVD's, apprenticeships, etc. Of course, it's not the only way to train a bird dog, but it must work often enough if it's keeping them in business. If that pigeon ruined my dog, I'll be sure to let y'all know

[NEhomer]

love2hunt,

Your dog is stupid and will never hunt....you should take her to the pound!

[nevermind]

Wow love2hunt.... seems you've got your feathers ruffled. Maybe I've missed something in the posts as I didn't read anyone criticizing what your doing just giving their opinion that the puppy introduction isn't necessary. Do what you like with your dog as it's your Dog! BTW good looking pup.

[love2hunt]

love2hunt,

Your dog is stupid and will never hunt....you should take her to the pound!

You're exactly what's wrong with this place NEhomer

Wow love2hunt.... seems you've got your feathers ruffled. Maybe I've missed something in the posts as I didn't read anyone criticizing what your doing just giving their opinion that the puppy introduction isn't necessary. Do what you like with your dog as it's your Dog! BTW good looking pup.

You missed the point of my post. I didn't say their opinions on dog training were wrong or misplaced. I said the tone and the attitude with which they are presented is unnecessary and excessive. I will, however, do exactly as you recommended and do what I want with her! I also have to agree that she is a good looking little thing.

[polmaise]

I will, however, do exactly as you recommended and do what I want with her!

My Llewellin pup, Ann, was introduced to a pigeon at 10 weeks, but was a little intimidated by it. I decided to give it some time before I tried again. I tried to do what was described in the HuntSmith Puppy Development 1 training DVD and just let her build confidence. As you can see in the video, she didn't know what to do at first. By the time I picked it up, though, she was all about it!

So you were 'telling us all' rather than 'Asking us all' .
'Tone' is always difficult to interpolate within a post or a reply.
A lot depends on how it is perceived and who reads it

[love2hunt]

I will, however, do exactly as you recommended and do what I want with her!

My Llewellin pup, Ann, was introduced to a pigeon at 10 weeks, but was a little intimidated by it. I decided to give it some time before I tried again. I tried to do what was described in the HuntSmith Puppy Development 1 training DVD and just let her build confidence. As you can see in the video, she didn't know what to do at first. By the time I picked it up, though, she was all about it!

So you were 'telling us all' rather than 'Asking us all' .
'Tone' is always difficult to interpolate within a post or a reply.
A lot depends on how it is perceived and who reads it

Yes, absolutely. I was sharing out of excitement! I don't mind being challenged on the methods, but others take it worse than I did. I won't deny that it "ruffled my feathers" a bit, but I have much bigger things to worry about in life than what some guy on the internet told me I should or shouldn't do.

Electronic communication has its large pitfalls. That should make us extra sure that our words mean what we want them to mean, rather than shrugging it off and saying "well if that's how they take it, then that is their fault." If we have no ability to convey tone or body language, then our words should be even more well-chosen and precise.

[polmaise]

Yea, but some like me are just not as literate That doesn't make them uneducated regarding dogs

[love2hunt]

Yea, but some like me are just not as literate That doesn't make them uneducated regarding dogs

No disagreement there!