Dog not pointing till right on top

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randomnut
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Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by randomnut » Fri May 15, 2015 7:42 pm

of birds. I'm using pigeons in a remote launcher. Dog will point but seems like he waits until he can't see the bird before he will point. He seems to have a great nose, he finds the birds almost too fast, but like said, he rarely stops and points and goes straight for the bird. If he can't find it, he points. I'm popping the pigeons before he gets there. Anything else I should do?

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DonF
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by DonF » Fri May 15, 2015 7:54 pm

You are doing it wrong. What your doing is watching to see if your dog will point, don'tn do that. The moment he hit's scent, pop the bird. Try to keep it from pointing the bird. Won't be long and it'll beat you, then don't not pop the bird. You know where the trap is, you know which way th4e breeze is moving, you know about where your dog will h9t the scent. Let him hit the scent if it's coming in across the scent. If it come's within 20' of the bird from any other direction, pop the bird. Weather it's in the scent or out, you pop the bird and don't say a word. Works every time!
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by setterpoint » Fri May 15, 2015 8:08 pm

good advise I would follow it. don't let the dog crowed the bird

randomnut
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by randomnut » Fri May 15, 2015 8:35 pm

Ok guys. Ill try to watch him closer. How long would you leave a bird out in the launcher before getting the dog after it? I thought maybe there wasn't enough scent in the area yet, causing him to get so close, but I think I'm underestimating his nose. I'm planting the launcher and going right to the truck for the dog.

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ibbowhunting
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by ibbowhunting » Fri May 15, 2015 8:52 pm

Work um 90 degree to the wind,it will be Easyer to tell when he catches scent, dons is giving you good advise, pop that bird

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by RayGubernat » Sat May 16, 2015 10:22 am

You need to wait for ten or fifteen minutes, not for the bird scent to build, but for your own scent to dissipate.

Others have given good advice. I take my youngsters into the field on a long checkcord and I try to run them into the scent cone perpendicular and downwind. in your case I would entere the scent cone from about 10 to 20 yards downwind. Watch the dog like a hawk. The very instant the dog turns its head toward the launcher, or lifts its nose or hesitates...POP THE BIRD!! If the dog moves as you pop the bird...POP the checkcord. do all of this in silence. Do whatever you can to keep the interaction between the dog and the bird. Let the scent be the thing that screams "WHOA"to the dog.

Popping the bird the instant the dog smells the bird will get the dog to stop and point at first scent. Popping the checkcord, if the dog so much as moves a toenail at flush, will reinforce the lesson that movement causes the bird to flush and that a premature flush will result in NO JOY. No discipline, but no praise either.

Let the bird be the teacher. you are just holding the checkcord. :lol:

RayG

randomnut
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by randomnut » Sat May 16, 2015 10:32 am

Thanks for the advice guys. Ill start on this next week.

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skunk
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by skunk » Mon May 18, 2015 8:11 am

I'll second what others said above. Just watch your dog closely and you'll be able to tell when he gets scent. He will be running by and that head will turn and you should see his behavior change. As soon as he acknowledges that bird scent, let that bird fly. This is the method they use in the Perfect Start / Finish DVDs from Perfection Kennels. I like their methods as they seem quite intuitive and easier on you and the dog (assuming you have plenty of birds).

To add a personal account:
I was helping a few dogs get ready for their NAVHDA Natural Ability (NA) test last summer. Most of the dogs were not pointing consistently and it only took a few times of this to change their behavior. All of them prized in their NA test.

My own dog was one of them and he was 5 months old at the time. Since hunting over him last fall, he's gotten much more bold and crazy in the field so he is going to be getting a second dose of this steadiness training as soon as my young homing pigeons are ready to be used.

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by NEhomer » Mon May 18, 2015 9:38 am

I too am just starting to launch birds for my setter pup so thanks for the advice everyone. I probably haven't been popping the bird quickly enough.

Now, the second rookie question. What to do about chasing. Let him chase after the flush because at this point (5 1/2 months) it's all about fun and less about correction OR stop him from chasing right now to prevent problems later?

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by Trekmoor » Mon May 18, 2015 10:43 am

NEhomer wrote:
Now, the second rookie question. What to do about chasing. Let him chase after the flush because at this point (5 1/2 months) it's all about fun and less about correction OR stop him from chasing right now to prevent problems later?
I think you will get some opposing answers to this question. Personally, I let pups chase birds right off the field if they want to . I have always found that eventually the chase diminishes in distance and in intensity. When I see that happen of the pup's own free will I begin to train for steadiness. Maybe I have been lucky for every pup I have trained so far has given up chasing within a couple of months .....sometimes within a few days. I have heard of pups that kept right on with the chasing though and they needed to be taught not to chase.

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skunk
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by skunk » Mon May 18, 2015 12:36 pm

NEhomer wrote:I too am just starting to launch birds for my setter pup so thanks for the advice everyone. I probably haven't been popping the bird quickly enough.

Now, the second rookie question. What to do about chasing. Let him chase after the flush because at this point (5 1/2 months) it's all about fun and less about correction OR stop him from chasing right now to prevent problems later?
I let my dog chase at that age. I'm no expert but I think I'd be fine letting him chase... depends on the dog, obviously. If he isn't so sure about why he's out there (low drive), then by all means let that dog chase to build the excitement. I personally have the opposite problem where my dog has a super high prey drive.

My dog is 1 year and a few months old now and my training plan for the next 4 or 5 months is steadiness. That's just my personal view. I am basically attempting to get more control of my dog in the field and I feel that if he flushes a bird and knows to stand still until released, I will be able to manage the hunt better in general. Also, if I shoot a bird, it's much easier for me to walk over to him and give him the fetch command rather than just letting him break and wildly pursue that bird all amped up and excited from the heat of the moment while I'm also wondering "Did I hit that bird?".

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by RayGubernat » Mon May 18, 2015 3:27 pm

NEhomer wrote:I too am just starting to launch birds for my setter pup so thanks for the advice everyone. I probably haven't been popping the bird quickly enough.

Now, the second rookie question. What to do about chasing. Let him chase after the flush because at this point (5 1/2 months) it's all about fun and less about correction OR stop him from chasing right now to prevent problems later?
I am not a huge fan of letting a dog chase. It is just something else I will have to train around. But then, I do not have wild birds handy.

It also depends GREAT deal on just what the pup will be chasing. If the pup is chasing wild birds, it won't catch them. if the pup is chasing strong flying pigeons, it won't catch them as they will not land on the ground, but rather up in a tree out of the dog's reach. In both instances, the pup will(almost always) eventually lose interest in chasing because it is consistently a waste of time and effort and it finds that the chasing behavior does not please the master.

However, if the pup is chasing penraised quail...it WILL catch them, sooner or later, and then... you got a problem or as some would say... a training opportunity.

RayG

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NEhomer
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by NEhomer » Mon May 18, 2015 6:30 pm

Thanks folks.

I definitely don't want him to chase as an adult. Not that I ever miss but a couple of hunting buddies do! :D

My only trepidation at this point is doing any corrections while the pup is engaged in what he's supposed to be doing...hunting birds. At the outset, he looks to have terrific prey drive and is crazy birdy so I don't think I could turn him off birds if I wanted to.

Ray, do you stop him by checkcord while praising? How do you isolate for the dog that chasing is the reason for the correction?

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by RayGubernat » Mon May 18, 2015 7:57 pm

NEhomer wrote:Thanks folks.

I definitely don't want him to chase as an adult. Not that I ever miss but a couple of hunting buddies do! :D

My only trepidation at this point is doing any corrections while the pup is engaged in what he's supposed to be doing...hunting birds. At the outset, he looks to have terrific prey drive and is crazy birdy so I don't think I could turn him off birds if I wanted to.

Ray, do you stop him by checkcord while praising? How do you isolate for the dog that chasing is the reason for the correction?

I do a LOT of yardwork with a youngster. I spend a considerable time doing heel/whoa drills and stroking a dog up on a bench. I want the dog to understand that standing still gets praised and that the default option is to stop and stand. I actually introduce and develop the WHOA command as an obedience command and will pop the checkcord if the dog moves(once the dog knows very well what I am requiring it to do). I will correct the dog in the yard for movement once the command is given.

When in the field, I want the bird or more precisely, the bird scent...to be the thing that SCREAMS... "WHOA!!" ...to the dog. If the dog never establishes point, that is one thing, But if the dog establishes point... it knows...very well... that it is not to move so much as a toenail until I release it. The way I introduce the concept to the dog, If it moves in any way, breaks and attempts to chase, it has, in effect, disobeyed and obedience command, and IT WILL be disciplined for disobeying a known command.

The discipline can be a pop on the checkcord, it can be picking the dog up off its feet, setting it back, stroking it up and throwing a pigeon, tempting it to move again, or it can be a nick with the e-collar, or it can be hauling back and flipping the dog over when it hits the end of the checkcord in full chase. It all depends on the individual dog, what it understands it must do, what it needs, what it can handle, how much of an infraction it was, etc. I try to use the least amount of pressure to get the lesson ingrained in the dog's mind.

With some dogs, a few pops of the checkcord its all it takes. With another dog you could pop the checkcord for a month and get nowhere, but stopping it cold in full chase once or twice and then standing it up, stroking it and flying a couple of pigeons with it standing there... and you may have that dog for the rest of its life. It is about TOTAL pressure. A little pressure, over and over again, can become nagging to a dog and they can turn it off, forcing you to ratchet up the pressure. A strong dose of pressure once or twice, and then praise for doing it right, after that, can often be less total pressure and get a better result.

But just how you proceed depends on the nature ad temperament of the dog, the extent of the introductory training it has had and the skill level and experience of the trainer with that kind of dog. In general, if the dog has had a good deal of intro yardwork and has not been allowed to chase since it was a puppy, it will, very often point staunchly and be steady to wing and shot the first or second session. I have had dogs(a couple) stand the very first pigeon that was launched for them. I have had dogs( a couple) stand the second or third launched pigeon with only popping the checkcord and re-setting the dog on the first and second attempts. I have had most dogs be steady within a half dozen launches.

The ones that took longer were, in my opinion, the result of inadequate preparation and thus, trainer error. There was one dog who threw me a bunch of curveballs and I opted to send her to a pro who was VERY experienced with this type of dog, rather than to continue on and risk messing her up. You gotta know when to punt sometimes.

I prefer to do as much yardwork and prep work as I can BEFORE I get into the birdwork, and I continue with the yardwork all the while I am doing birdqwork in the field, because I am not as experienced a trainer as some, my timing is not as good as some and I find it works better for me and the situation I am in, facilities wise.

RayG

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NEhomer
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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by NEhomer » Tue May 19, 2015 9:59 am

Great stuff, thanks.

I know that I need to do more yard work. I've been doing some whoa work on a barrel and he's starting to get it.

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by oldbeek » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:31 pm

I let my dog chase then went into NSTRA competition letting her fetch on gun shot.. Big mistake. She learned she could catch quail that were hit or not. She was 20 months old and had caught many quail. Now I had a real training opportunity! She had been trained the Smith method of whoa. She understood the flank collar stem for whoa after lots of yard work. I set a launcher in the field and as she approached it up wind , I launched the bird and as she saw the bird I gave a very light stem and a low audible whoa. She stopped dead in her tracks. Then I launched a second bird. Training over. Ever since then she stops instantly on bird launch or wild covey rise. I was lucky that she is a quick learner.

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by GWPtyler » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:58 am

RayGubernat wrote: Popping the bird the instant the dog smells the bird will get the dog to stop and point at first scent. Popping the checkcord, if the dog so much as moves a toenail at flush, will reinforce the lesson that movement causes the bird to flush and that a premature flush will result in NO JOY. No discipline, but no praise either.

Let the bird be the teacher. you are just holding the checkcord. :lol:

RayG
^^^^ This!!

Dogs that creep need birds that won't hold. It's why wild bird contacts work well.

Get yourself some cheap pigeons or, ideally, homers and pop, pop, pop until the dog gets the point.

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Re: Dog not pointing till right on top

Post by setterpoint » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:50 am

no big deal you created the problem you can fix it. do what you have read and pop the trap I would think just a few times and dog will start pointing when it hits the scent. I have worked dogs that did the same thing. this is an easy fix

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