weaning off rewards and collar condition

Eycee1 · Post by **Eycee1** » Mon May 25, 2015 3:58 pm

How long does it normally take to wean off rewards?? and at what age do you collar condition?

My lab just hit 7 months old. I never used rewards until a few weeks ago and it is only for the reinforcement of the "Here" command. Now that I am positive that she knows it how long should I take to wean her off rewards?? And once she is weaned off of them I plan of collar conditioning her to "Here".

thanks!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:24 pm

I never used rewards other than showing my approval by petting or some action the pup understands as happy. A pup that has been raised in your household knows come or here by the time they have been there for a week or at least should if you are using those words at the time. Enforcing is where the training comes in and I feel better if the pup knows it has to respond rather than just getting a treat if it decides it wants to come. But whatever works for you. I would cut way back on treats quickly and probably should be food treat free with in a very few days.

Ezzy

Eycee1 · Post by **Eycee1** » Mon May 25, 2015 4:43 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I never used rewards other than showing my approval by petting or some action the pup understands as happy. A pup that has been raised in your household knows come or here by the time they have been there for a week or at least should if you are using those words at the time. Enforcing is where the training comes in and I feel better if the pup knows it has to respond rather than just getting a treat if it decides it wants to come. But whatever works for you. I would cut way back on treats quickly and probably should be food treat free with in a very few days.

Ezzy

OK great thanks, Yeh i've been totally against it as well and have taught everything without the use of rewards and just with repitition and praise even though i am trying to follow Evan Graghams program but i linked up with my local trails club and they said i had to use it for recall. They are also against the e-collar at this age for some reason even though in the program it seems the pups were collar conditioned to here around 4 months old. But i have used rewards for only "here" since linking up with the club and she now does it every time unless she is greatly distracted so against what the club members are telling me i think i want to wean her off them and collar condition her. Hopefully it's the right move. Again this is my first dog i am training and i'm seeing there are soo many ways people are doing things, I just dont know what is best.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon May 25, 2015 6:08 pm

I have a couple 15 year olds that I have never seen a need to wean off treats and don't know why I would. I carry jerky cut into one inch strips at all times, a dog does something that pleases me, they get a treat. I know for a fact that 2x National Champion Shadow Oak Bo was trained with treats. Every Hollywood and performing animal trainer uses treats. It is only in hunting dog training is there a resistance.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon May 25, 2015 6:15 pm

Did I mention both are field champions with over 60 wins?

Had a Boykin that had thousands of birds killed over him that felt he earned a treat after every retrieve, I agreed.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon May 25, 2015 6:50 pm

I have never believed in treating a dog with food. A "good dog" and a soft pat are all they ever need. I like the dog knowing and realizing that everything is associated with me; correction, encouragement, commands; it all comes from me.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon May 25, 2015 8:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I have never believed in treating a dog with food. A "good dog" and a soft pat are all they ever need. I like the dog knowing and realizing that everything is associated with me; correction, encouragement, commands; it all comes from me.

The dogs sure seem to act like they know the treats come from me.

There are any number of ways and techniques that work, I just find it easier for us both to train with treats. Never heard a good reason not to.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:01 pm

Treats, no treats... Do whatever works for you and your dog. The one laying to my left loves getting treats, but she hates disappointing me even more, and would do anything to get my approval. The one on my right could care less for treats, but a "good dog" and occasional retrieve is enough. You need to know what works best for your pup and everything after that is timing.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:11 am

deleted

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:14 am

Neil wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I have never believed in treating a dog with food. A "good dog" and a soft pat are all they ever need. I like the dog knowing and realizing that everything is associated with me; correction, encouragement, commands; it all comes from me.
The dogs sure seem to act like they know the treats come from me.

There are any number of ways and techniques that work, I just find it easier for us both to train with treats. Never heard a good reason not to.

My feeling is that treats are bribery and I refuse to have to bribe a dog to get him to obey a command. Some day you may froget your treats. Ain't many pro's out there that "treat" a dog with food.

Eycee1 · Post by **Eycee1** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:10 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Neil wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I have never believed in treating a dog with food. A "good dog" and a soft pat are all they ever need. I like the dog knowing and realizing that everything is associated with me; correction, encouragement, commands; it all comes from me.
The dogs sure seem to act like they know the treats come from me.

There are any number of ways and techniques that work, I just find it easier for us both to train with treats. Never heard a good reason not to.
My feeling is that treats are bribery and I refuse to have to bribe a dog to get him to obey a command. Some day you may froget your treats. Ain't many pro's out there that "treat" a dog with food.

agreed thats why i am weaning her off treats this week and most likely collar conditioning her this weekend. I have Evan Grahams program and i know he uses treats at a very young age to "teach", the command. By now she knows all the commands so now I am going to try and segway into the "force" stage. I fell off track a bit after linking up with my local trials clubs but i think its time to get back on track with Evan Grahams program. I hope i am not too far behind.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:05 am

There is nothing wrong with bribery...if it works. I bribe my horses with grain to come in for me...and they do, even when there is no grain. If bribing a puppy with food treats gets it to cooperate with minimal pressure...I'm all for that.

The trick with dogs is...to become inconsistent. To be random with the food treats. Once the pup learns and responds to the command and the treat, you need to start becoming inconsistent with the food treat, but ALWAYS consistent with the verbal or physical praise. EVERY SINGLE TIME. NEVER forget to give the youngster approval for doing what you ask.

When all is said and done, the good dog and the pat on the flank is all the approval and reward the dog should need, because those things signify your approval to the dog.

There are several good reasons why most pros do not use food treats. They do not train one or two dogs at a time, they train whole litters, or more, at a time. They would have to be carrying a sack of food for all of the dogs they work in a session.

Also, most pros work with dogs that are carefully bred for the job at hand and that are predisposed to do what you are going to want them to do. Most pros won't waste their time or the clients money on a dog that...ain't got what it takes".

A dog that is not so selectively bred...might need a little more help to go from point A to point B.

Also pro trainers know pretty well what they are doing, what to expect and how to proceed. They do it over and over, on dozens, even hundreds of dogs over their careers. Many one dog amateurs who are training their first or second or third dog simply do not have that level of experience and that extra "trick' in their trainer's bag, can help.

RayG

NEhomer · Post by **NEhomer** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:16 am

I used treats consistently with my setter pup for the first few months and he was highly motivated to obey for them. As he's nearing the 6 month mark, I no longer need them and he has just as of late, felt compelled to obey when I use a stern voice and say "come."

I see nothing wrong with treat training but yeah, eventually you want them to obey without needing a treat.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:27 am

Just to clarify, I think treat's are great for pup's but from six months on, no.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Tue May 26, 2015 2:00 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Just to clarify, I think treat's are great for pup's but from six months on, no.

Good clarification, GH, it's swung bigtime in that direction (treats) for some of the better (very) young dog trainers.

What I'd like to know is what "local trials club" advises against collar conditioning a 7-month old Lab?

i linked up with my local trails club and they said i had to use it for recall. They are also against the e-collar at this age for some reason even though in the program it seems the pups were collar conditioned to here around 4 months old. But i have used rewards for only "here" since linking up with the club and she now does it every time unless she is greatly distracted so against what the club members are telling me i think i want to wean her off them and collar condition her.

MG

Post by **Sharon** » Tue May 26, 2015 2:50 pm

I've never used treat with my dogs but my husband is much more co operative if given a treat once in a while.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:31 pm

Hall of Fame member Buddy Smith uses food treats up and through Derby, often a 1/3 of the Field at the Ames NC are dogs started by Buddy, including 2 x National Champion Shadow Oak Bo, NC CedarOak Kate, etc.

I would be more likely to run out of shells than treats, the treats are a lot lighter.

I get the macho thing, he is my dog and he does what I say, when I say. Me, I am more interested in cheerful compliance, however I get it.

More important to me than hunting dog trainers, is what the other animal trainers do, often asking about 10 times more than we do. Those dogs, whales, horses, etc you see in movies are all trained with treats.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:43 pm

Sharon wrote:I've never used treat with my dogs but my husband is much more co operative if given a treat once in a while.

Well, ya Sharon, but you don't carry that treat in a bag and you carry and endless supply!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:22 pm

I am sure every pup is trained with treats but most of you are thinking treats are always something to eat. Not necessarily so.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:23 pm

For 30 years I never gave food treats, but I'm now firmly in the other camp. As said above, food is used for pretty much all animal training except gun dogs. It's amazing how you can shape the dog's behavior, or how they sit, or how they heel, retrieve to hand, whatever, with some well designed treating. And they do it enthusiastically. It will not replace the ecollar but for some tasks the treats will get you there much faster. The advocates say that you should treat every time for the beginning of a new task, but once the desired behavior is obtained you only do it here and there. You can wean them off treats and they'll still love you.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:39 pm

I've never been into rewards like that either. But when I put them up, or we go back inside I do give them a treat or two of some kind. Problem I see with them is most of us at some point stop the rewards. what happen's then? Dog suddenly stops getting rewards, will it quit doing what it was to get them? I don't know so just avoid the whole thing in the first place. As for the e-collar, I put it on as soon as it will stay on them but leave it turned off. Then about ten or twelve mos you start training for real, dis obeying get's a nic! Dog is used to the collar so hopefully doesn't associate the nic with the collar but rather disobeying a known command.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:48 am

Great responce Ray. I read an article by Hickox that discussed this. He equated it to a human playing a "slot machine" with the random reward.

We had a Springer once that we trained to roll over just for grins. When my wife and I would have a cocktail and snack before dinner the dog would get in front of us and roll over until we gave her a pretzel. It got annoying.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed May 27, 2015 11:39 am

I've always thought that the other problem with treating is that when you treat a dog, the dog is obeying to satisfy HIMSELF. He is given a treat as reward for performance. When you don't treat a dog he performs for YOU because he seeks your approval. In my mind, there's a big difference.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:22 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I've always thought that the other problem with treating is that when you treat a dog, the dog is obeying to satisfy HIMSELF. He is given a treat as reward for performance. When you don't treat a dog he performs for YOU because he seeks your approval. In my mind, there's a big difference.

So you think with the big difference Bo would have won the National Championship 4 or 5 times?

Most are concerned with the performance and not the why.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:01 pm

Neil, is it really bothering you that someone has an opinion that is different than yours?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed May 27, 2015 3:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Neil, is it really bothering you that someone has an opinion that is different than yours?

Lots of the time those with differing opinions are right and I am proved wrong.

Said early on there are a number of ways to train dogs. So I am not bothered at all, just refuting nonsensical statements.

I am pretty sure I know why some are against food treats, and it is not because there is a big difference in the outcome, there is not.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed May 27, 2015 4:05 pm

I don't believe dogs "want" to please us. They are factory installed to "want" or more aptly need food and protection their selective breeding for companionship and cooperation makes humans an attractive option for basic needs. They can be as corrupted as humans with things they do not need; however those things are in the now and an extension of basic needs, such as; excessive food or particularly delectable fare..They are not "wanting" for a bigger house, nicer car, more channels, etc...basic needs not entertainment.

Weaning a dog off treats that understands what behavior is expected could not be simpler, in operant conditioning always leave them wanting more, when you are enthusiastically and consistently getting the behavior you want offer the treat every other time, then every third...and if you have conditioned to the collar for correction, or if you are using physical compulsion...whichever, make the correction when you do not get the result you want. The preliminary work of offering a reward to get the behavior you want ALWAYS makes the inevitable corrections less severe. In our world those behaviors are not complex to the dog, but a bit more so to us humans perhaps, those of you who know I am plagiarizing multiple trainers...please forgive me.

For instance, let's assume your dog is well bred and the hunting, seeking game comes naturally with exposure. It is argued with a pointing dog that all we need now is "go with us", "come to us" and "stand still." All three of these simple behaviors can be introduced and achieved with operant conditioning at very early and immature stages in a pointing dogs life with no pressure...and I mean true no pressure, not the no pressure I hear where people are still using compulsion and relaying their barely controlled temper in body language they congratulate themselves for because they see it in relative terms. As the dog matures commands can be overlayed on the behaviors and lighter corrections are applied to get compliance, because the corrections are less severe the more stylish and enthusiastic dog we are left with. In a sense these dogs have learned to learn. I want as much as the original dog left in there as the one I bred that I can get.

Those who have not followed the process through cannot understand it, and frankly for many folks' purpose and wants it isn't necessary. It isn't hard to make a dog stand birds and retrieve them when they fall and there are countless ways to do it that fit lots of different temperaments and experience levels. For me, and as long as i choose to compete, I hope a bunch of people don't catch on.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed May 27, 2015 6:47 pm

I would be betting Neil that one heck of a lot more dog's have been made champions by NOT treating than treating. I can tell you for certain that in the retriever world I don't believe there has EVER been a FC made my treating.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:46 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I would be betting Neil that one heck of a lot more dog's have been made champions by NOT treating than treating. I can tell you for certain that in the retriever world I don't believe there has EVER been a FC made my treating.

Not knowing how every retriever FC has been trained I can't refute that statement, but am somewhat surprised that you are so certain. You really are claiming how every FC was trained? Really? For certain? You have proof.

And I do know for a fact, as in I witnessed it, those that Buddy Smith trained were with food treats, and that is a substantial number.

This is not a discussion, it is nonsense.

You don't want to use treats, don't; but please don't make crap up.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 27, 2015 9:31 pm

Neil, you copied gonehuntin's quote. It say "I bet". That does not say he knows for sure. And you are further out when you keep saying how Buddy Smith trains as your evidence that most dogs are trained with treats. I have as much respect for Buddy as you do but he doesn't train 1 % of the dogs that are trained.

I am confused though by one thing, so many of you swear by FF if you want a dog that is dependable and I keep hearing how it even makes the dog so much more biddable but then you tell us we need to train everything else with treats. Since dogs only retrieve when and how they want to with out force training but you advocate training point, come, or whoa with treats that means the dog will follow your commands when ever he wants to. Neil, which way is it, force or treats, if you want a dependable dog? Can't have it both ways!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed May 27, 2015 10:47 pm

But you can have it both ways... The questions are how much and when? No dog is ever "proofed" on "treats" the act of altering behavior is always a matter of discipline and education. A bird dog that values a cookie more than a quail is destined for the dog park. At some point in the proper place of maturation we demand that it's done a particular way. When that way has already been learned and rewarded adapting to avoid conflicts is of a natural progression. The result is achieved with minimal or without stress... Because stress is mitigated when you have a solution to your conflict... And so it is with dogs

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 28, 2015 2:40 am

Easy,

You need to work on your reading.

Gone's second sentence says certain with "ever" capitalized when he speaks of retrievers, the "I bet" was about pointing dogs.

Buddy is not the only one using treats, many others do, but I tried to be clear, I find the training methods of the other animal trainers that are asking about 10 times what we do more important.

Sorry I gave you and others the impression you can train with treats alone, I think you need a mixture of reward and force.

I think the OP has his enough information to make a decision.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu May 28, 2015 4:48 am

I ran the FT circuit for quite a few years Neil, everywhere from British Columbia south to Arizona and in all those years of training and campaigning I NEVER saw a competetive retriever trained with treats. Ever. It takes pressure to be competetive.

But as I stated before, it's balance. Pups get treats, as they mature and can handle pressure with an increased attention span, it is unnecessary. There are things in dog training that require pressure and those that don't. That simple.

Grommet · Post by **Grommet** » Thu May 28, 2015 9:13 am

I went to a Fred Bradley clinic, notable spaniel trainer for those not familiar, and he recommended that I use treats to train my spaniel puppy "here". The results were undeniable. I have also used treats to teach not train for all obedience, sit, heal, here from then on. Why fight a puppy when it is so easy to make it fun and reward your pup for doing what you ask. Slowly reducing the rewards is easy to do and you have taught the pup what to do with no force. Training it to be reliable on those commands down the road will take putting pressure on the dog but in my opinion takes much less if the dog was rewarded early on for compliance. I'm really not sure how this is even an argument.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 28, 2015 10:00 am

You do realize there is a bit of difference in you have never seen it in your extensive experience, and it not happening EVER?

And from treats not being neccassarily from there is a big difference.

Train however you want to.

NEhomer · Post by **NEhomer** » Thu May 28, 2015 11:08 am

4 out of 5 doggies surveyed prefer treats!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu May 28, 2015 12:05 pm

Grommet wrote:I'm really not sure how this is even an argument.

I'm trying to figure out the same thing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu May 28, 2015 12:39 pm

Don't think it is an argument but more an expression of opinions. One thing I will guarantee, there is not a single method that works for all dogs or trainers and those who can't understand flexible will not excel as a trainer.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu May 28, 2015 1:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Don't think it is an argument but more an expression of opinions. One thing I will guarantee, there is not a single method that works for all dogs or trainers and those who can't understand flexible will not excel as a trainer.

Absolutely well said.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu May 28, 2015 4:18 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Don't think it is an argument but more an expression of opinions. One thing I will guarantee, there is not a single method that works for all dogs or trainers and those who can't understand flexible will not excel as a trainer.

+2

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:40 pm

Treats are ok as long as 'ya don't overdo it. If you have to wean pup off of treats, it's my personal belief you've overdosed

Doesn't matter one way or a 'nuther because before it's all over with,treats or no treats, you're going to have to change those "want to's into have to's.

It's just not always Sunshine and Butterflies.

RickB · Post by **RickB** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:34 pm

The most important thing to wrestle with is there are other rewarding things than treats. My dog will ignore treats in the field. The birds, the run and the hunt are the reward. Same with "fun bumpers" for a lab. A lot of retrievers love to retrieve and retrieving is the reward.

As for weening off treats...the best advice (seen above) is inconsistency. When the dog understands, only reward for the absolute best performance. Performance will improve. When the dog understands, throw in some distractions (slowly), and begin to reward.

Regardless of how you train (rewards, punishments, both), eventually the behavior is a habit. The behavior itself is self rewarding. I use a shock collar, but I cannot remember the last time I shocked my dog. The use of the shock faded because the behavior (namely the recall and steadiness on birds) became habit. Same with rewards...these can fade when the behavior becomes habit.

The key to ANY technique is drilling. Repetition. Different places, different times, different distractions.

There are two things: A thing a dog knows how to do and a thing a dog does do. Repetition is the key to bringing these two things as close as possible.