SHould i say fetch?

[oldbeek]

I am working with a trainer that says to use the dogs name as the command to fetch instead of fetch. He hunts with some highly trained dogs and says if all the dogs responded to fetch, they would all go after the downed bird. BUT if you use the dogs name for fetch, only that dog will retrieve the bird. Sounds logical but I will have to retrain my pup to the new command. Any comments?

[gonehuntin']

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

[Swampbilly]

^^^What Gonehuntin' said!
(And the trainer)
A little tid bit-
Watch your voice inflection and volume, then log it in the mental Rolodex.
Be conscientious on short and long marks.
You don't need to "yell" the dogs' name on marks that are right there in his face 10-20yds away.
If you start off "big" there's not much room to emphasize.

Save the "big" emphasized release commands for the longer, challenging marks, it really gets 'em going off the line, particularly for an eager dog.

[polmaise]

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

Expand?...I'm confused ?

[mnaj_springer]

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

Yep! This is what you need to know.

[gonehuntin']

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

Expand?...I'm confused ?

Here is the states, most retieving dog's are force fetched. When you ff a dog you do it with the ear pinch and word fetch. The three commands taught are fetch, hold, and drop. Fetch is a command that demands compliance and hurts. The dog is taught to immediately get something into his mouth when the fetch command is issued or the if he doesn't, the result will be some pain in the form of a pinched ear or ecollar stimulation. When he is out of the yard, he is then taught to retrieve on his name most commonly or the word back, used primarily for blind retrieves. The word fetch will never be used again unless he drops a bird in the field.

Now, when we're out hunting and shoot a bird, his name is called or his head is tapped as a signal to retrieve the bird. If the bird is a runner and he never finds it, there is no harm done. However, if he were command to FETCH the bird and came back without itt, it would begin a total unravelling of his understanding of the word fetch. The word fetch would lose all significance to him and we could not have it in our bag of tricks should a real problem arise down the road. Fetch, sit and here are the three most powerful commands a retriever ever learns and are always associated with discomfort and compulsion.

[CDN_Cocker]

Always send a dog on its name, not fetch. Fetch comes later in FF.

[ezzy333]

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

Expand?...I'm confused ?

Me too. No matter what word you use, if he fails then he has refused your command. Think where I am having trouble is I tell the dog to search dead not that he has to find. The same thing happens as far as the dog goes no matter what the word you use.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

To each their own Ezzy.

[MSU Aggie]

I use fetch with puppies, when im getting them started. I will keep using fetch through force fetch. Once we are on force to pile I transition to their name.

[gonehuntin']

Let me try this again Ezzy and Polmaise. When a dog is sent on his name for a marked retrieve and is unsuccessful, pressure is never or rarely used to correct the dog. A bird boy may help him, the trainer may walk out and help him but pressure is never used on the dog.

See the difference? With the word FETCH, the dog MUST succeed and pain is used to force this compliance. There is never, ever, and exception. The ONLY way the dog can avoid pain is by getting something in his mouth and fast.

This is never the case on a marked retrieve.

[marsh]

Let me try this again Ezzy and Polmaise. When a dog is sent on his name for a marked retrieve and is unsuccessful, pressure is never or rarely used to correct the dog. A bird boy may help him, the trainer may walk out and help him but pressure is never used on the dog.

See the difference? With the word FETCH, the dog MUST succeed and pain is used to force this compliance. There is never, ever, and exception. The ONLY way the dog can avoid pain is by getting something in his mouth and fast.

This is never the case on a marked retrieve.

Great explanation!!!!!

[oldbeek]

Thank You all for your comments. Have had dogs for 50 years of my 73 years and still learning.

[polmaise]

He is absolutley correct. The word FETCH is used only in the yard unless the dog refuses to pick up a bird in the field. Especially if you have ff'd a dog, he is never sent for a bird with tne command 'FETCH". The reason? If he doesn't find the bird, he has just refused a command.

Expand?...I'm confused ?

Here is the states, most retieving dog's are force fetched. When you ff a dog you do it with the ear pinch and word fetch. The three commands taught are fetch, hold, and drop. Fetch is a command that demands compliance and hurts. The dog is taught to immediately get something into his mouth when the fetch command is issued or the if he doesn't, the result will be some pain in the form of a pinched ear or ecollar stimulation. When he is out of the yard, he is then taught to retrieve on his name most commonly or the word back, used primarily for blind retrieves. The word fetch will never be used again unless he drops a bird in the field.

Now, when we're out hunting and shoot a bird, his name is called or his head is tapped as a signal to retrieve the bird. If the bird is a runner and he never finds it, there is no harm done. However, if he were command to FETCH the bird and came back without itt, it would begin a total unravelling of his understanding of the word fetch. The word fetch would lose all significance to him and we could not have it in our bag of tricks should a real problem arise down the road. Fetch, sit and here are the three most powerful commands a retriever ever learns and are always associated with discomfort and compulsion.

Thank you . It makes more sense than this explanation .

He hunts with some highly trained dogs and says if all the dogs responded to fetch, they would all go after the downed bird.

[pato y codoniz]

Let me try this again Ezzy and Polmaise. When a dog is sent on his name for a marked retrieve and is unsuccessful, pressure is never or rarely used to correct the dog. A bird boy may help him, the trainer may walk out and help him but pressure is never used on the dog.

See the difference? With the word FETCH, the dog MUST succeed and pain is used to force this compliance. There is never, ever, and exception. The ONLY way the dog can avoid pain is by getting something in his mouth and fast.

This is never the case on a marked retrieve.

Fetch means "put the item in your mouth".

It doesn't mean "go search for the item and then put it your mouth" and I think that is where the confusion arises.

Commands like "come", "sit", "whoa", "fetch", "hold", "drop", "heel", etc are known as zero tolerance commands because the dogs is control of the his compliance through obedience.

[Trekmoor]

Quite an interesting subject. It seems to highlight the difference between a dog that retrieves partly because it has been F.F.'d and a dog that retrieves to please itself and maybe it's owner.

None of my dogs have any expectation of "pain" should they fail for any reason to retrieve. All they would experience is a loss of pleasure as they think of picking up the retrieve as a reward.
Admittedly this "reward only" method of working can go wrong, I see this happen sometimes when a pup or young dog is told to retrieve an item of game it has not previously encountered such as a woodcock, a bird that in Britain is initially disliked by many dogs. The dog will find the woodcock but does not want to pick it up . Sometimes I see the dogs lips wrinkle in distaste and sometimes the dog even sneezes to rid itself of the smell/taste.

When this happens is when the handler takes over with encouragement to the dog . That encouragement provides the dog with a link to it's previous retrieves done over many months with dummies and with game species. Most dogs then pick up and retrieve the woodcock and if the dogs are then given further fairly regular opportunities to retrieve woodcock then the dogs may become quite keen on retrieving them.

F.F. would seem to shortcut all of this ? I have a question however. If a dog did not want to pick a bird such as a woodcock after seeing it shot and fall , would it fetch it at once even if it had never encountered one before due to having been F.F.'d or would the handler have to repeat previous F.F. training in order to "make" the dog retrieve the bird ? Would a one word retrieve command still be sufficient ?

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

Geeze, this is turning into an interesting discussion! Bill, our dogs here, many, don't like woodcock either. They all point them fine but like dove, many don't like retrieving them. Here is how I handle the situation and I'll bet you get all different responses and differing methods.

With me, if I shoot a woodcock and see the dog run to the bird, stop and sniff it, then turn away in disgust, I will first try to make it fun for the dog. I'll go to the bird, call the dog in and throw the bird several short tosses to see it he will willingly get the birds EACH TIME CALLING HIS NAME and trying to be very positive. Now, after a couple of throws with the bird and him refusing it, things change. I have NEVER believed in continuing a hunt when it may harm the training of the dog so I would pick up the bird, go back to the truck with the dog, and load him up. Now, back home in my yard, I'd take that bird and first throw it, sending the dog on hi name. If he doesn't pick it up only then do I resort to force. At this point I'll pinch his ear, then reinforce with collar, MAKE him retrieve the bird and walk at heel with it. I will do this until he goes and retrieves the bird each and ever time in the yard.

Now we go back to the field. I will shoot a bird and send the dog and he should now pick it up. If he doesn't, which is rare, I will then MAKE him pick it up since he has just been through this in the yard. I usually try to never pressure a dog in the field on an obedience command and never around birds. I hate pressureing a dog on birds. It's my belief that if you have to pressure a dog on birds, that dog will NEVER be a great retrieving and recovery dog; he's like me at work: he's there because he has to be and that is not an enjoyable thing to behold.

[mnaj_springer]

Bill,

Theoretically if a dog has completed a FF program it should reach out and grab, then hold anything. I believe a member of this forum had her dog fetching Cheetos. And yes, you could say 'fetch' and enforce the rules on a new game animal, but that's not what I would do. I want my dogs happy when they encounter new game, to build a desire to hunt that game. But once they retrieve the new game a couple times (and know the expectation) then the 'fetch' command is enforced thereafter. Also, my spaniel, which has gone through FF, retrieves enthusiastically and iretrieving is a reward for her.

Gonehuntin, we must've hit 'submit' simultaneously! But I second that process, and I also would wait to enforce 'fetch' because the hunting should be fun for the dog, not an obedience task.

And I found the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoDNN92cxlc
Munster, I hope you're okay with me sharing this again.

[Trekmoor]

The thing that strikes me about the above posts from Mnaj Springer and Gonehuntin' is that they do not at once resort to F.F. commands or training when presented with a dog's refusal to retrieve a particular species of game. They do as I do and resort to the old fashioned but still effective "praise/ encouragement" ways of training.

I think that shows good common sense. A dog could be F.F.'d into picking the bird or it could be clicker trained to pick the bird but both of those methods are dependant upon the handler being able to easily see the dog as it finds the fallen bird and being able to give the F.F. command or the "click" at exactly the correct instant in time.
In real life hunting situations being able to do that is quite often impossible so we have to rely on the dog being very willing to pick up the bird with no commands of any kind......Or am I wrong ?

I have now edited this to say that I find it very difficult to train a dog that is naturally a reluctant retriever of woodcock. The reason for this is simple. In my area I only see about 3 or 4 woodcock shot per shooting season and only once in every several years does a woodcock fall within my "picking up" area at driven shoots. I have to sneak a woodcock from the gamecart at lunchtime to give my dog(s) a practice retrieve with it.

Very often that bird has already been in another dog's mouth and it is no longer in a fresh condition and it has often gone "cold" too. Woodcock are not common at the shoots I go to. I took a woodcock from the gamecart last season to give my Brittany her first try on one. She did retrieve it but only with a lot of encouragement. One of the other pickers-up standing nearby then told me that apart from the dog that had first retrieved it three other dog owners had already tried their dogs on it before I arrived !
No wonder it was a soggy mess !

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

Nice post Bill T. I have seen people fly into a rage when their dog refuses to pick up a bird the dog' hasn't seen before. I've always thought it was the handler feeling embarrased. I always think it strange that people get so upset when their dog's don't pick up a strange bird, yet they themselves show reluctance to try new things until they know they're safe. To me, it's only the dog showing common sense and being cautious of an object they're not sure of. The dog that charges in and grabs any bird that falls to the ground is probalby not the brightest of animals.