Spaniel Hunt Tests

[mopar_nocar]

I am in Texas. Either I am very dense, or there are not any spaniel hunt tests any where close to me. Anyone out there have any ideas?

Thanks.

[crackerd]

Ain't none. Or ain't many. Field trials interest you? - if so (and I know Tejas is a big place) you might want to get through to David "Strong" Jones http://stronggundogs.com/ or Martin Bell http://www.shelmarkennels.com/ and see if they can help.

MG

[mopar_nocar]

Appreciate that.

I will get in contact with those folks.

Are spaniels just not popular enough to have widespread Hunt Tests? Or is it a regional thing? I may have to restructure my family vacations and travel to do any hunt tests, which would be doable, but less convenient than our retriever/pointer brothers have it. Bunches of those hunt tests in Texas and OK, and Louisiana.

Thanks again.

[crackerd]

Are spaniels just not popular enough to have widespread Hunt Tests? Or is it a regional thing? I may have to restructure my family vacations and travel to do any hunt tests, which would be doable, but less convenient than our retriever/pointer brothers have it. Bunches of those hunt tests in Texas and OK, and Louisiana.

Welcome, mopar - turns out I'm one of (y)our retriever brothers, but I run field trials instead of hunt tests. However, when I did run retriever HTs, it was often with a spaniel or "spaniel-esque" dog, and they were loads of fun. The retriever games welcomed spaniel participation with open arms - and great curiosity - and the spaniels carried the flag (and picked up their share of multiple marks, especially Boykins) for their breeding as a gundog on land or water. The irony is, the spaniel hunt test program had/has become so forlorn as the province of the show spaniel crowd, AKC in trying to save it threw it wide open to other breeds including Airedales, Labs (!), Goldens, and I think the lesser known retriever breeds as well. And in so doing has pumped a little life into the program, essentially through handlers who above all pursue ribbons however much those ribbons may have been devalued by what the program now consists of. Which is one reason, maybe the reason, I recommended (spaniel) field trials.

Don't know what kind of spaniel you're working, but you may want to consider joining your retriever brothers for some fun in their tests - most enjoyable weekend activity. Also, it's quite likely that Gundogguy who's on this board and made up more than his share of FCs (read about him in the Spaniel Spot adjacent) will come along and give better spaniel advice and possibly closer contacts for you.

Good luck,

MG

[gundogguy]

Ain't none. Or ain't many. Field trials interest you? - if so (and I know Tejas is a big place) you might want to get through to David "Strong" Jones http://stronggundogs.com/ or Martin Bell and see if they can help.

MG

Spaniel tests are usually held at the front end of the year Jan thru March, due to temp extremes in Texas. David Jones would be a contact, Marti Bell not so much. Marti is a fine guy just not involved much in the Spaniel events any more.

The best contact would be Robert Clayton, https://www.facebook.com/robert.clayton.50596
As Crackerd indicated UKC HRC tests are open to spaniels though they do specialize in retriever type events however they do give some lip service to a upland flushing test.
Chances are no matter what you do driving distances will be challenging in Lone Star State.

We do have Texas on our Field Trial radar for late January 2016, That is a good break for us from Michigan snow and cold! and we do have a little hottie that is a hoot to compete with. My monicker photo is her posing with her 1st Blue.

[mnaj_springer]

And in so doing has pumped a little life into the program, essentially through handlers who above all pursue ribbons however much those ribbons may have been devalued by what the program now consists of.

Can you expand on why you think the program has been devalued? Thanks.

[crackerd]

And in so doing has pumped a little life into the program, essentially through handlers who above all pursue ribbons however much those ribbons may have been devalued by what the program now consists of.

Can you expand on why you think the program has been devalued? Thanks.

'Cause essentially as I noted above spaniel hunt tests became the province of the show crowd - except for the ESS field trial clubs out there that also put on HTs. My experience was that the show crowd ran their own breed HTs and dumbed them down as much as possible so it could be "Ribbons for everybody!" Even at that, the numbers (for participants) stayed very low until spaniel HTs turned into "flushing tests" with more breeds that aren't spaniels included.

UKC HRC tests are open to spaniels though they do specialize in retriever type events...

Likewise NAHRA, which is a good program, and AKC Retriever Hunt Tests, open to Boykins, AWS and "the other retrieving spaniel," the IWS.

MG

[gundogguy]

And in so doing has pumped a little life into the program, essentially through handlers who above all pursue ribbons however much those ribbons may have been devalued by what the program now consists of.

Can you expand on why you think the program has been devalued? Thanks.

'Cause essentially as I noted above spaniel hunt tests became the province of the show crowd - except for the ESS field trial clubs out there that also put on HTs. My experience was that the show crowd ran their own breed HTs and dumbed them down as much as possible so it could be "Ribbons for everybody!" Even at that, the numbers (for participants) stayed very low until spaniel HTs turned into "flushing tests" with more breeds that aren't spaniels included.




MG

MG I would have to agree completely. I'm surprised that the "Flushing Tests" have not been opened up to beagles and shepherds as well.
My wife and supported tests in the beginning some 30 yrs ago. Our hope was that the program would be a bridge for folks to move up to Spanieling trialing, like it has for the the Retriever world. No such luck, or turn of events, folks have taken the standards down hill instead.

[mopar_nocar]

So, is there any point to getting a JH, SH or even MH in the spaniel world?

Or is that even still a thing?

I had NO idea that Hunt Tests were so poorly thought of in the spaniel world.

sb

[mnaj_springer]

Wow? Really?! That's concerning! I thought the elements were all the same regardless of breed, they just varied based on level... So do the clubs change the requirements or just find judges willing to bend the rules?

[gundogguy]

Wow? Really?! That's concerning! I thought the elements were all the same regardless of breed, they just varied based on level... So do the clubs change the requirements or just find judges willing to bend the rules?

Clubs and judges have little to do with it. Though the judges are expected to know a good Labrador and a American Cocker all at the same time, tell me how that works??
Each breed has what is known as a "Breed running style document" Think of it as some 12-13 different running style that can be called a flushing dog yet run under the same test. It is senseless, retriever and pointing dogs have no such running style document in their test venues.

Mocar nocar asked is it worth it? The test is little more than a obedience test that exams behavior instead of talent. If it is used as a bridge to higher standards then it is worth it.

In some parts of the country there are test where only Springer and Cockers are tested those test will be worthwhile. The fact is because some of the clubs will only except entry's for Springers and Cockers.

[mnaj_springer]

Wow? Really?! That's concerning! I thought the elements were all the same regardless of breed, they just varied based on level... So do the clubs change the requirements or just find judges willing to bend the rules?

Clubs and judges have little to do with it. Though the judges are expected to know a good Labrador and a American Cocker all at the same time, tell me how that works??
Each breed has what is known as a "Breed running style document" Think of it as some 12-13 different running style that can be called a flushing dog yet run under the same test. It is senseless, retriever and pointing dogs have no such running style document in their test venues.

Mocar nocar asked is it worth it? The test is little more than a obedience test that exams behavior instead of talent. If it is used as a bridge to higher standards then it is worth it.

In some parts of the country there are test where only Springer and Cockers are tested those test will be worthwhile. The fact is because some of the clubs will only except entry's for Springers and Cockers.

So you're saying the elements of the test aren't a good evaluation of talent and trained ability (just to clarify)?

And having never been to a spaniel trial, what are the elements of a spaniel trial? I know they usually run in braces then callback dogs run, but what are the dogs expected of (how bird contacts, retrieves, and such).

Thanks

[polmaise]

The test is little more than a obedience test that exams behavior instead of talent. If it is used as a bridge to higher standards then it is worth it.

We have similar over this side and the terminology may get lost in translation.

Spaniel Test = Performed in the off shooting season using bumpers/Dummies.Therefore abilities such as noise or hard mouth or flushing or game finding are not observed.
Basic obedience and handling however are judged.
Many folk only attend these tests during this better weather and an Award/Ribbon can be gained with a run which lasts about 5 minutes. The truck is also usually parked within sight although they do attract a varied diverse crowd and in many cases the Silverware and prizes attract even the very best handlers for a day out

Spaniel Trial = Performed on Live game with nominated shooters. Less predictable than a scenario set up as in a test, the emphasis here being the dogs abilities to find and flush and retrieve game.Less of a Spectator sport and fitness of both Handler and dog are required as covering ground of all types and all weathers for a whole day and in Open Class over 2 days.

In many ways the two are vastly different but as gundogguy suggests if one's dog is not at the very least capable of completing the elements in a 'Test' it is hardly likely to perform in a Trial.

[gundogguy]

]

So you're saying the elements of the test aren't a good evaluation of talent and trained ability (just to clarify)?

And having never been to a spaniel trial, what are the elements of a spaniel trial? I know they usually run in braces then callback dogs run, but what are the dogs expected of (how bird contacts, retrieves, and such).

Thanks

Let me respond to the 2nd part of your question 1st. Spaniel trial is all about finding the most talented dog in the field that day. One winner one dog that set itself apart from the rest of the entry's. The criteria for doing that would be the following:

1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training, steadiness, calmly and quietly.
These elements are the talents that judges look for in trial and which dog is the best. The Judging in Trial is completely subjective.
Trials are about gun dog talent. Dogs competing will be well versed in their manners. Only a fool would enter a dog in trial that was not
well trained. A judge at trial has a blank sheet of paper to make notes about each dog that runs under him.

It could be said that TESTS are judged under the same elements only the dogs are not judged against each but against the level they are testing. Test are not about talent they are only about training behaviors. The judging at test is completely objective. A judge at test has a score sheet with different categories to grade and score each dog entered. With no consideration for which dog completed the test the best. Only whether or not they completed or failed the test. Tests are not about talent they are about learned abilities.

Trials are a fundamental part of any strong spaniel gun dog breeding program in this country. Tests are not, i have never seen a breeding done because of test results. Most dogs in the test venues are bred for conformation and dogs show consideration.

[crackerd]

The test is little more than a obedience test that exams behavior instead of talent. If it is used as a bridge to higher standards then it is worth it.

We have similar over this side and the terminology may get lost in translation.

Spaniel Test = Performed in the off shooting season using bumpers/Dummies....

Spaniel Trial = Performed on Live game with nominated shooters. ...

In many ways the two are vastly different but as gundogguy suggests if one's dog is not at the very least capable of completing the elements in a 'Test' it is hardly likely to perform in a Trial.

Robt., N/A (not applicable) in N.A. (North America) - both our spaniel hunt tests and field trials are "performed on live game with nominated shooters" and theoretically should test the same traits. In fact, hunt tests include additional elements (namely land and water blinds, and once proposed multiple marks*) that should test trained spaniels beyond what field trials require of them. Again, theoretically speaking. But I defer to Gundogguy on his every salient point about what spaniel HTs actually are, or rather what they have become. Thirty years ago, when the program began (God bless you, Ham Rowan, and your Boykin, Dixie), hope (and springers and even the few of the minor breeds that actually wanted to work) sprang eternal. If the original poster really wanted to pursue this venue, I'm told that CKC spaniel HTs are still the bomb, and it's worth noting that's also a country (Canada) where all recognized spaniel breeds can compete against each other in their field trials, unlike here (or the UK, for that matter).

MG

*Remember the proposed MHX (Master Hunter Excellent) title, Gundogguy? What were there, like two clubs in the whole country, that even considered holding it, so "high" was the interest in an advanced HT title.

[mnaj_springer]

]

So you're saying the elements of the test aren't a good evaluation of talent and trained ability (just to clarify)?

And having never been to a spaniel trial, what are the elements of a spaniel trial? I know they usually run in braces then callback dogs run, but what are the dogs expected of (how bird contacts, retrieves, and such).

Thanks

Let me respond to the 2nd part of your question 1st. Spaniel trial is all about finding the most talented dog in the field that day. One winner one dog that set itself apart from the rest of the entry's. The criteria for doing that would be the following:

1. Drive, strength of quest,quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training, steadiness, calmly and quietly.
These elements are the talents that judges look for in trial and which dog is the best. The Judging in Trial is completely subjective.
Trials are about gun dog talent. Dogs competing will be well versed in their manners. Only a fool would enter a dog in trial that was not
well trained. A judge at trial has a blank sheet of paper to make notes about each dog that runs under him.

It could be said that TESTS are judged under the same elements only the dogs are not judged against each but against the level they are testing. Test are not about talent they are only about training behaviors. The judging at test is completely objective. A judge at test has a score sheet with different categories to grade and score each dog entered. With no consideration for which dog completed the test the best. Only whether or not they completed or failed the test. Tests are not about talent they are about learned abilities.

Trials are a fundamental part of any strong spaniel gun dog breeding program in this country. Tests are not, i have never seen a breeding done because of test results. Most dogs in the test venues are bred for conformation and dogs show consideration.

Wait, now I'm even more confused. I looked at the spaniel HT handbook and in the section where it talks about judging categories, it lists almost exactly what you wrote.

[crackerd]

So, is there any point to getting a JH, SH or even MH in the spaniel world?

Or is that even still a thing?

I had NO idea that Hunt Tests were so poorly thought of in the spaniel world.

To address this, mopar, while mnaj is trying to comprehend Gundogguy's expert witness input into judging spaniel events -
yes, there is a point, especially in aspiring to the Master Hunter title, should you have a working spaniel from a breed that's not eligible for spaniel field trials.

Just so you know, only two breeds are eligible to run FTs, springers and cockers. The other seven or eight spaniel breeds have to find their competition where they can, should they desire it, and for a while the best opportunity for that was spaniel hunt tests. There are working dogs in the minor spaniel breeds, albeit very few of them, and should one want to show off his or her dog's training as a flushing spaniel, the HT game was your only option. Really still is, despite what Gundogguy called HRC's "lip service" to upland hunting.

But now, as I noted above, several of the spaniel breeds are also eligible for AKC retriever hunt tests, and since these breeds are trained predominantly as retrievers in the first place, that seems to be a pretty good fit. AKC retriever HTs get tougher by the year, rather than getting diluted by ribbon fanciers from the show ring, and the spaniel breeds eligible to run them are giving a pretty darned good account of themselves. But retriever HTs can be an acquired taste for many flushing spaniel handlers, because the training that goes into them to get to the top level is intense, and the outcome is almost always dependent on how well trained (as a retriever) the dog has become. That training applies to the elements of retriever HTs - such as multiple marks on land and water, blind retrieves on land and water - that few flushing spaniel handlers are inclined to undertake, for the obvious reason that spaniel FTs don't include these elements.

But to recap, the spaniel MH title from AKC still means something, but only if your dog earned it in true tests of a flushing spaniel's abilities, both trained and inherent, and you got your ribbons in tests that were likely put on by field trial clubs or working ESS clubs to begin with.

MG

[mopar_nocar]

Going to give it some thought. Not sure if I want to go trialing....seems high pressure.

Maybe I will just train and hunt my dogs and attend a trial or hunt test if it becomes convenient, which in Texas seems unlikely.

I have been in contact with Buck from the Heart of Texas Spaniel Club and am looking to get involved. It is a 4hr trip, but might be worth it for the expertise.

Thanks,

sb

[gundogguy]

Going to give it some thought. Not sure if I want to go trialing....seems high pressure.

Maybe I will just train and hunt my dogs and attend a trial or hunt test if it becomes convenient, which in Texas seems unlikely.

I have been in contact with Buck from the Heart of Texas Spaniel Club and am looking to get involved. It is a 4hr trip, but might be worth it for the expertise.

Thanks,

sb

That's probable a good course of action. By participating and observing you will reach your own comfort level.

Trialing is higher in pressure after all we are not looking for average dogs we are looking for the outstanding dog. Literally tests are looking for average dogs. Best of luck and as I mentioned earlier I am thinking seriously about coming to Texas next January to run in trials held there and in Oklahoma. If so look for to meeting up you down that way!

[gundogguy]

]

It could be said that TESTS are judged under the same elements only the dogs are not judged against each but against the level they are testing. Test are not about talent they are only about training behaviors. The judging at test is completely objective. A judge at test has a score sheet with different categories to grade and score each dog entered. With no consideration for which dog completed the test the best. Only whether or not they completed or failed the test. Tests are not about talent they are about learned abilities.

Trials are a fundamental part of any strong spaniel gun dog breeding program in this country. Tests are not, i have never seen a breeding done because of test results. Most dogs in the test venues are bred for conformation and dogs show consideration.

Wait, now I'm even more confused. I looked at the spaniel HT handbook and in the section where it talks about judging categories, it lists almost exactly what you wrote.

Try to understand the difference between being judged (as in a Trial) and be scored as (in a Test). One is subjective and the other is objective.

[mnaj_springer]

I understand the difference between the definitions of those two words. What I've been trying to understand is where you view the biggest disparity between trials and tests... Because they look for the same traits/behaviors (this is my understanding of your explanations), they face the same elements (although HTs require a water retrieve as well), and they both face the subjective opinions of judges (tests use scores but it's a score based on an opinion).

So Are you saying the standards that HTs use are not difficult enough? Or is the disparity in the talents of the participants (canine or human)?

I'm just trying to understand fully.

[gundogguy]

I understand the difference between the definitions of those two words. What I've been trying to understand is where you view the biggest disparity between trials and tests... Because they look for the same traits/behaviors (this is my understanding of your explanations), they face the same elements (although HTs require a water retrieve as well), and they both face the subjective opinions of judges (tests use scores but it's a score based on an opinion).

So Are you saying the standards that HTs use are not difficult enough? Or is the disparity in the talents of the participants (canine or human)?

I'm just trying to understand fully.

"I'm just trying to understand fully". To fully understand you will just have to go to trials and tests and make your own determination.
You stated that you have never been to a trial well there in lies the difficulty in trying to draw comparisons between the two events.
How many tests have you observed?

[mnaj_springer]

I haven't been everywhere or done everything, that's why he internet is a great tool. People can communicate experiences, describe events and places to others, and compare opinions.

I've been to just over a half dozen tests at different clubs.

[gundogguy]

I haven't been everywhere or done everything, that's why he internet is a great tool. People can communicate experiences, describe events and places to others, and compare opinions.

I've been to just over a half dozen tests at different clubs.

Good you have seen a number of tests possible even participated. Now go to 1/2 dozen Springer trials, chances are it will not take that many to be able to draw a comparison between the two venues.

[chrokeva]

I have been to a 1/2 dozen springer trials and 3 cocker trials over the past several months but have never been to a spaniel hunt test. My club (springer spaniel trial club) will be holding a spaniel hunt test in July and I am looking forward to comparing the two venues.
Have to say that I am glad that I will be trialing a cocker rather than a springer as at least in this part of the country there a fewer cockers and the cocker trials seem rather low key in comparison.
I have heard that the hunt test is kind of like a training day with ribbons?.
I will be entered in senior for both days and looks like my first cocker trials (as a competitor) will be in September.

[gundogguy]

I have been to a 1/2 dozen springer trials and 3 cocker trials over the past several months but have never been to a spaniel hunt test. My club (springer spaniel trial club) will be holding a spaniel hunt test in July and I am looking forward to comparing the two venues.
Have to say that I am glad that I will be trialing a cocker rather than a springer as at least in this part of the country there a fewer cockers and the cocker trials seem rather low key in comparison.
I have heard that the hunt test is kind of like a training day with ribbons?.
I will be entered in senior for both days and looks like my first cocker trials (as a competitor) will be in September.

For some one that has not been to many events those are interesting comparisons. All adjectives being relative the difference between Springer trials and Cocker trials, Springer trialers are on caffeine and Cocker trialers decaf. The Springer trials are red hot in competition. Cockers not so much!

One might look at test as a training day with ribbons,however if it is a test, no corrections are allow.
Not sure which club in Calif. you plan on attending, it seems that last years tests were postpone or canceled for some reason.

[polmaise]

I don't know how the 'Fair' is over there?
Test's as in simulated scenario with Springer and or Cocker in competition as a 'test' . Is not that popular over here ,and not that many.
Those that attend and participate have good fun and as a handling exhibition certainly shows some good dogs at that.

[chrokeva]

Yes it does seem that the springers are much more competitive. I really enjoy watching and training with the springers but happy to be on decaf with my cocker for now .
I believe most of the hunt tests scheduled in central California were cancelled last year due to lack of judges meeting the 5 years seminar requirement that AKC sets. Tamarin Spaniel Club was nice enough to host a seminar over the summer so now we have plenty of judges.
Stockton ESSTC will be holding there test on July 18th, and Green Valley Spaniel Club will host Sundays test. Green Valley will also be hosting a spaniel water test after the hunt test.
I am looking forward to finding out what the hunt test is all about. I know that most of the entries will be trial dogs so figuring I may enjoy watching some pretty good runs.

[gundogguy]

I believe most of the hunt tests scheduled in central California were cancelled last year due to lack of judges meeting the 5 years seminar requirement that AKC sets. Tamarin Spaniel Club was nice enough to host a seminar over the summer so now we have plenty of judges.
S I know that most of the entries will be trial dogs so figuring I may enjoy watching some pretty good runs.

Thanks for the California update. Best of runs this fall in the Cocker trials.

[crackerd]

Test's as in simulated scenario with Springer and or Cocker in competition as a 'test' . Is not that popular over here ,and not that many.
Those that attend and participate have good fun and as a handling exhibition certainly shows some good dogs at that.

I am looking forward to finding out what the hunt test is all about. I know that most of the entries will be trial dogs so figuring I may enjoy watching some pretty good runs.

Cool thing in my recollection was watching a Junior Hunt Test at an ESS FT club in Pa. when my last HT dog was between series at master - and seeing the springers in JH put on a real show. They were field trial dogs, as I recall, and been entered only because there was water work unlike in FTs, or because their handlers might want to work on their steadiness under judgment, or maybe just because they wanted to support their club. But, wow, what an athletic, acrobatic peformance across the board for those JH dogs - outshone anything in MH that day by a mile! Well, maybe by 7/10ths of a mile, I have to brag on my old girl, almost 12 years later...

MG

[polmaise]

Cool thing in my recollection was watching a Junior Hunt Test at an ESS FT club in Pa. when my last HT dog was between series at master - and seeing the springers in JH put on a real show. They were field trial dogs, as I recall, and been entered only because there was water work unlike in FTs, or because their handlers might want to work on their steadiness under judgment, or maybe just because they wanted to support their club. But, wow, what an athletic, acrobatic peformance across the board for those JH dogs - outshone anything in MH that day by a mile! Well, maybe by 7/10ths of a mile, I have to brag on my old girl, almost 12 years later...

MG

They are as versatile as anything when they get the chance ..and the conditions are right .

[crackerd]

They are as versatile as anything when they get the chance ..and the conditions are right .

Don't know if I'd go that far, Robt., but if they're climbing a chicken wire fence (as in the photo) to collect free-range eggs for you from the henhouse, I may have to reconsider.

But when you see a springer go vertical like a Harrier jump-jet on the flush, then come back to earth on a dime and steady at a junior hunt test (lowest level), and have come from the "outside" seeing field-bred spaniels on their game for the first time, you're into some mind-bending material right there.

MG

[gundogguy]

[quote="crackerd"][quote="polmaise"]


But when you see a springer go vertical like a Harrier jump-jet on the flush, then come back to earth on a dime and steady at a junior hunt test (lowest level), and have come from the "outside" seeing field-bred spaniels on their game for the first time, you're into some mind-bending material right there.

Great photo Polmaise!

WG It is all about the dogs "challenging the test" what you described as field trial dogs running in a JH test as dogs that challenge the level of test in which they were being scored. Not a test or problem that challenge those particular dogs. Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior. And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

[polmaise]

And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

Hooooray and then some .

[polmaise]

Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior.

Good show though ?.. lol..Aye right !
Test's are a good show of obedience /handling and they are an indicator of what level of handling and training that the dog has understood .
But 'Trials' will tell and show what the dog and handler has actually learned about 'Game' .

[mnaj_springer]

But when you see a springer go vertical like a Harrier jump-jet on the flush, then come back to earth on a dime and steady at a junior hunt test (lowest level), and have come from the "outside" seeing field-bred spaniels on their game for the first time, you're into some mind-bending material right there.

Great photo Polmaise!

WG It is all about the dogs "challenging the test" what you described as field trial dogs running in a JH test as dogs that challenge the level of test in which they were being scored. Not a test or problem that challenge those particular dogs. Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior. And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

Clearly those dogs should be run at a higher level. Why would one waste money on a test that's below his/her dog's abilities? I would skip right to the level that meets or challenges my dog's skills and training.

[polmaise]

Clearly those dogs should be run at a higher level. Why would one waste money on a test that's below his/her dog's abilities? I would skip right to the level that meets or challenges my dog's skills and training.

Fortunately and Thankfully ,the dogs don't know that It's also a a fun day with Like minded folk who also love working and competing with their dogs .

[gundogguy]

Clearly those dogs should be run at a higher level. Why would one waste money on a test that's below his/her dog's abilities? I would skip right to the level that meets or challenges my dog's skills and training.

Fortunately and Thankfully ,the dogs don't know that It's also a a fun day with Like minded folk who also love working and competing with their dogs .

Robert exactly. They viewed it as a training session nothing more nothing less, a dress rehearsal so to speak. Chances are if we dug a little deeper their attendance was more for the support of the club and it's activities than any thing else. My wife and I did the same many years ago just to support activities, we never took a ribbon home always gave them back to club.

and as far as the money part "drop in the bucket" in comparison of what is spent on the total development of a dog.

[mnaj_springer]

I'm sure you're right. But then there's no use complaining about the other dogs that are trying to title at a level appropriate for their skills.

[crackerd]

I'm sure you're right. But then there's no use complaining about the other dogs that are trying to title at a level appropriate for their skills.

mnaj, what conspiracy of complaint are you hallucinating over this time? - Gundogguy, who stated his rationale for supporting and contributing (entry fees and to his club? Or Polmaise, who's espousingd a fun day out with like minded folk? Or maybe me, who doesn't really care about "other dogs trying to title a level appropriate for their skills" but just happens to enjoy good dogwork, especially if it's by my own dogs, but not necessary for an appreciation of what I'm witnessing?

The bottom line is, until AKC opened up the renamed "flushing tests" to non-spaniels or more minority spaniels, they were looking at a dying program. To put a Master Hunter title on my last spaniel, in the seven tests she ran for six passes (failed one), there were 26 dogs total in those seven tests. Do the math so you''ll have a better grasp of what constitutes a dying program - that's not even four dogs entered per test.

MG

[mnaj_springer]

Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior. And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

This was my hallucination. Im sure people would have more fun, and attendance would increase if less people described the other dogs as bumbling.

[crackerd]

Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior. And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

This was my hallucination. Im sure people would have more fun, and attendance would increase if less people described the other dogs as bumbling.

You're throwing softballs that are getting turned into dents on the scoreboard. No, attendance would not increase because the handlers "populating" those tests, such as they were, happened to be 98% show fancy who knew all too well that "a dog that stumbles and bumbles its way through" would almost certainly get a ribbon and that's all they were in pursuit of, as gundogguy noted "for breeding decisions."

And by the way, a dying program is < four dogs/Master Test. An undying program is 400 dogs (yes, 400) for an AKC master hunt test - that's how many you have sometimes in retrievers. And then there's the Retriever Master National, where dogs must have obtained their MH title to run in the first place, and also must pass a high percentage of tests entered (over 75%), and then have to requalify the next year to run the Master National again by the same criteria. I believe there are over 800 dogs qualified to run it this year, and usually 90% of those qualified are actually entered in the Master National. That's what you would call an undying program.

MG

[mopar_nocar]

Well, after all this discussion I am certainly discouraged.

It seems the flushing dog community is not only divided, but also a tiny minority of people interested in gun dogs; especially spaniels. And I don't mean just on this board. The field/show split in springers and cockers and the dearth of American cockers who have any field background in them at all, public perception that king Charles spaniels are what spaniels are all about (at least locally to me) and a general decline in training knowledge makes me think that the hunting spaniel is on the way out.

From this site and something I saw on TV in the wee hours, I googled the National Bird Dog flushing dog championship and you tubed it and saw not one spaniel on there. I do wish the standings included a breed name, but how many spaniels are ranked now on NBDC? Now, I realize that in 2008 a spaniel won it, and there are some hall of famer spaniels on there from the early days but that is a looong time ago in dog years. Seems the stuff I see on tv with flushing dogs is all labs or the occasional golden.

I had a Weim a few years ago. One of my father's friends raised labs for hunting and when my dad was bragging on my Weim's retrieving ducks in the a.m. and finding quail in the p.m. his friend replied," I didn't even know Weimaraners were hunting dogs." Now, I realize that is ignorance, but he bred, raised and hunted dogs in the Midwest and TX and never ran across a hunting Weim until mine. Is that the future of spaniels in America? 26 diehards who know what a spaniel is for and the rest????

I don't think the sky is falling, just feeling a little frustration.

sb

[mnaj_springer]

Yet they will receive the same award as a dog that stumbles and bumbles it's way through and actually receiving credit for accidental behavior. And yet some folks I know use those results for breeding decisions

This was my hallucination. Im sure people would have more fun, and attendance would increase if less people described the other dogs as bumbling.

You're throwing softballs that are getting turned into dents on the scoreboard. No, attendance would not increase because the handlers "populating" those tests, such as they were, happened to be 98% show fancy

Can you cite your source for this statistic? This happens to be the opposite of my experience.

Also, clearly retriever tests will have more attendees. It's only logical that a more popular breed will have more dogs at tests.

Finally, when the ball hits the scoreboard behind the backstop, it's called a foul ball. But I'm sure they cheer just because you made contact!

[mnaj_springer]

mopar,

The problem is we (the spaniel community) have too many old men, with old thinking, and old ways of doing things. They are quick to point out problems and faults, and discuss the shortcomings of ideas, events, peoples, and dogs. But they struggle to bring forth new ideas, better ideas, that allow for the expansion of these great dogs. We limit ourselves with our rigidity. We do not encourage the casual trainer to join us without judgement.

In fact these problems are pervasive throughout the outdoor and upland communities as well. We fall to the wayside while others that encourage growth and progress (the waterfowl community) continue to grow. It's unfortunate to fall in love with a dying passion. But I for one will encourage everyone to participate, at whatever level they are able to, without judgement, and with full support. Because rather than looking down my nose at people with less experience or less talented dogs, I see folks who are expanding their experience and helping the growth of what I am passionate about.

[mopar_nocar]

mnaj wrote : "encourage growth and progress (the waterfowl community)"

I am curious as to the cause of this growth. Some of it may be attributable to 'Duck Dynasty' but surely not all. I find water fowling to be labor intensive, equipment laden and sometimes less than stimulating (unless the birds are coming into the decoys like mad) when compared to upland. I wonder if it is more accessible with a higher success rate for many casual hunters than upland hunting?

I know that the games people play with their dogs in TX are more accessible to the hunting retriever set than the upland enthusiast...as that was the original reason for opening this can of worms.

sb

[crackerd]

That's a hellacious cri de coeur, mnaj - unfortunately, it's just highfalutin languauge and 97% untrue (just about everything but the "too many old men" truism but, hey, you also need to realize that gundog training - instead of Internet interjections - is what keeps us young).

Shall I refute thee in oh so many ways?

The problem is we (the spaniel community) have too many old men, with old thinking, and old ways of doing things. They are quick to point out problems and faults, and discuss the shortcomings of ideas, events, peoples, and dogs. But they struggle to bring forth new ideas, better ideas, that allow for the expansion of these great dogs. We limit ourselves with our rigidity. We do not encourage the casual trainer to join us without judgement.

In fact these problems are pervasive throughout the outdoor and upland communities as well. We fall to the wayside while others that encourage growth and progress (the waterfowl community) continue to grow. It's unfortunate to fall in love with a dying passion. But I for one will encourage everyone to participate, at whatever level they are able to, without judgement, and with full support. Because rather than looking down my nose at people with less experience or less talented dogs, I see folks who are expanding their experience and helping the growth of what I am passionate about.

Not terribly long ago, I had minor breed spaniels and was new to the game, was welcomed by some of the most judgmental but helpful folks in the sport, enjoyed the events and their shortcomings, and didn't feel the need "to bring forth new ideas" other than opening field trials to other spaniels besides springers and cockers. The breed clubs of the predominantly show spaniel breeds were adamantly opposed to such a new idea. As new ideas go, if you have others that you would care to broach, or any training enlightenment that you would care to share, with or without judgment, fire away. Orotund talk (or orotund typing?) without action is just that.

Until then, what is it they say, those passionate folks such as yourself?, you're part of the problem, not the solution...

MG

[mnaj_springer]

There you go again with fabricated statistics.

I won't refute your subjective experience, but I was stating what I have observed. And I know the contributions I've made to my club, and to further my sport, so I know the weight my words carry.

[crackerd]

mnaj wrote : "encourage growth and progress (the waterfowl community)"

I am curious as to the cause of this growth. Some of it may be attributable to 'Duck Dynasty' but surely not all. I find water fowling to be labor intensive, equipment laden and sometimes less than stimulating (unless the birds are coming into the decoys like mad) when compared to upland. I wonder if it is more accessible with a higher success rate for many casual hunters than upland hunting?

I know that the games people play with their dogs in TX are more accessible to the hunting retriever set than the upland enthusiast...as that was the original reason for opening this can of worms.

mopar, the "waterfowl community" isn't experiencing growth and progress, it's the retriever testing programs that are - ironically enough because fowling has become such a costly proposition (duck hunting leases and equipment as you mentioned). Thus what used to be something taken advantage of in the off-season - running retriever hunt tests - is now its own raison d'etre for anybody who wants to show off a trained retriever or retrieving gundog, and the intensive training that goes into getting the dog to that level of success. And for those like-minded myopic (about training) souls, there's a camaraderie to it all. And I can assure you that neither spaniels nor spaniel handlers would be excluded from this camaraderie or from these training confabs, nor looked down upon, nor judged from on high - should you care to find out.

MG

[ezzy333]

In fact these problems are pervasive throughout the outdoor and upland communities as well. We fall to the wayside while others that encourage growth and progress (the waterfowl community) continue to grow. It's unfortunate to fall in love with a dying passion. But I for one will encourage everyone to participate, at whatever level they are able to, without judgement, and with full support. Because rather than looking down my nose at people with less experience or less talented dogs, I see folks who are expanding their experience and helping the growth of what I am passionate about.

Not terribly long ago, I had minor breed spaniels and was new to the game, was welcomed by some of the most judgmental but helpful folks in the sport, enjoyed the events and their shortcomings, and didn't feel the need "to bring forth new ideas" other than opening field trials to other spaniels besides springers and cockers. The breed clubs of the predominantly show spaniel breeds were adamantly opposed to such a new idea. As new ideas go, if you have others that you would care to broach, or any training enlightenment that you would care to share, with or without judgment, fire away. Orotund talk (or orotund typing?) without action is just that.

Until then, what is it they say, those passionate folks such as yourself?, you're part of the problem, not the solution...

Two quotes, first one should be framed and hung over the door to every club house and then one telling you how poor the first one is. I think it demonstrates one of the problems as stated . I do not men to denigrate the posters, as there are thousands more of us scattered through out the country that just have problems thinking about new or different ways of doing things and also accepting anyone else's new or different ideas or motives.

JMO
Ezzy