Shortening Up a Big Running Bird dog

[Sharon]

I get asked this question a lot. As I've never had to shorten up a dog , my help in answering that question is very limited. I'd like to learn more, so throwing this out for discussion.

for the walking hunter/trialer?

What I think I know:

Using an e collar for that purpose is not a good idea ,as you may be correcting the dog when he is on scent etc , which you don't want to do.

Wiser to buy a breed / breeding that suits a closer working style then you don't have to ......................

Some say as long as the dog holds the point until you get there, it doesn't matter how big he runs.

Teaching the dog to turn on command/whistle is the answer.

[Dakotazeb]

Teaching the dog to turn on command/whistle is the answer.

That is THE answer. My Brittany runs big in NSTRA trials but in the hunting field I can turn her with my whistle.

[Neil]

You have to be able to turn them at 2,000 yards or 50, the e-collar works well.

The fact that you are training a pointing to act so outside his breeding in this nonsensical act might well cause psychological breakdown is to them.

[Trekmoor]

My idea of "big running" is probably very different from the ideas that some of you have. For me, big running, means more than 200 yards out from me but is definitely less than the half mile I have seen in some posts on this forum.
Every Brittany and every GSP I have ever owned , with only one exception, has exceeded 2-300 yards as hunters. That sort of distance is more than I need or want so I have to train the dogs to work more closely when required.

I don't use e-collars although I often consider employing one. I use a well taught turn whistle at much closer distances like 40-60 yards until I have complete obedience at those distances .Once that obedience is in place I begin to allow the dog further out from me before blowing the turn. If the dog disobeys then I return to distances the dog does obey at and start all over again.

For me, "persuading" a dog to hunt closer is a never ending job as I like to see dogs hunting well out and do not and cannot insist that they always turn at , say, 200 yards. My dogs begin to self hunt again so I go back to revision training on close range turns again and the whole cycle begins all over again !

Another way of training for closer -in hunting is to ensure the dog gets plenty of finds closer in. I have trouble with this "method" as I do not have that sort of supply of game for most of the year. I suppose releasing pigeons from traps would have the same effect if managed properly but it would need a lot of traps I think ?

I can bring spaniels that have begun to stretch their hunting ranges a bit too much back in again by ensuring that all of their "finds" happen close to me ....within 15 yards. I do this with tennis balls previously planted on the ground to be hunted over.
This is no use at all with the pointing breeds however , I don't want a dog that points tennis balls !
The idea is the same with the pointing breeds but live game is needed instead of tennis balls.

I.M.O. there isn't a good and permanent answer to shortening up a big running dog .....unless you are willing to seriously inhibit it as a hunter.

Bill T.

[NEhomer]

When I have a dog running too big I just break one of his legs. Hobbled dogs are easier to woah up too.

[kcbullets]

I use e-collar and I want my dog to have a conditioned response to the whistle. To me it doesn't matter if the dog is on scent or not, a dog that is conditioned appropriately will do so. If the dog is associating the scent to a stim, I haven't done my job to teach and condition to the command.

[RayGubernat]

To me, shortening a dog up, in different situations is an integral part of the training process. A dog has got to learn to change gears...to dial it up and to dial it down, depending on what we are doing and where we are doing it. I need a dog to have an elastic range and to cover different types of terrain differently.

That is because I use the same dogs to hunt a 40 acre preserve with 10 pheasants salted in, as I do in a horseback field trial. I have used the same dogs for an all age stake AND a shooting dog stake. I have used the same dog to compete in a walking shooting dog and horseback shooting dog. I hunt ALL my dogs.

The process starts with the dog learning to stay with me in the field. I run the dog in birdless fields as a youngster and teach it to go with me. It progresses to and through the dog learning when to turn in the field and cover ground laterally to maintain contact. I start introducing that in the yard with a checkcord, progress to short grass fields with a long checkcord and then to fields with an e-collar. Over time and repetition, the dog learns MY comfort zones and begins to turn, in various covers, just about when I am reaching for the transmitter to issue a reminder.

THAT is when I know the dog and I are on the same page. and it is what I work towards inititally and continue to work for... all the dog's life.

Some are better at it than others, but if you are consistent in your training, the dog will learn to do what you want...to some extent. Some might need more reminders than others, but again...if they want to be afield and hunting, they know either do it MY way or they get put in the box and get to sit there watch a kennelmate hunt.

RayG

[Sharon]

You have to be able to turn them at 2,000 yards or 50, the e-collar works well.

The fact that you are training a pointing dog to act so outside his breeding in this nonsensical act might well cause psychological breakdown is to them.

Just to clarify , it is not one of my dogs I am asking about. See the O.P.

[Sharon]

When I have a dog running too big I just break one of his legs. Hobbled dogs are easier to woah up too.

No smart answers allowed on here or you will get in trouble.

[rinker]

I'm a foot hunter and small time weekend foot field trialer. When I start walking a 9-10 week old puppy through light cover I carry a piece of 1 inch or so pvc pipe, the pipe is about three feet long and has a string about three feet long tied through a hole in the end of it. I tie a pigeon's leg to the string. I carry the pigeon in one hand and the pipe in the other. When the puppy ventures out a some, I call to the puppy and then toss the pigeon, while holding on to the pipe. The pigeon flaps around and the puppy comes running. I may let the pigeon fall to the ground and let the puppy point it. I just generally tease the puppy with the pigeon. I will run the pup for twenty minutes or so and do this three or four times during the outing. After one or two outings, I have no trouble getting the puppy to respond to my call.

After a couple of weeks of this, I no longer use the pipe and string. I call the puppy and when he comes, I just toss the pigeon and let it fly home. The puppy chases the pigeon as long as he can. Again, I run the puppy for twenty, maybe thirty minutes at this point and three or four times, call to the puppy and toss a pigeon. I have no trouble getting the pups attention and getting him to come when I call. I continue to do this for months.

This drill has several benefits. First, the pup learns to go with me and pay attention to me at all times. The second benefit is that I can introduce the gun by firing while the pup is chasing a pigeon. The third benefit is interesting. At some point, after the puppy has chased a lot of pigeons, he begins to understand that the only thing he gets from chasing is hot and tired. Most dogs, at some point will just turn and watch the pigeon fly. They are 'stopping to flush', and not because I trained them to, but because they want to, it was their idea. This also helps later when breaking the dog, they have already stopped chasing to a large extent, steady to wing and shot is just an extension of that.

After a dog is completely broke, I will still continue to carry a few pigeons or quail with me during workouts. The dog will get a ways out, maybe out of sight, and I will wing lock a pigeon and throw it into some cover right beside me, or plant a quail in the cover right beside me, and call to the dog. They are happy to come to me, if they think they are going to find a bird. Now, I don't plant a bird every single time that I call my dog, but I do it often enough to make him think that I might.

Yes, I do use an ecollar to help with handling also, but I don't need to use it much.

[gundogguy]

I'm a foot hunter and small time weekend foot field trialer. When I start walking a 9-10 week old puppy through light cover I carry a piece of 1 inch or so pvc pipe, the pipe is about three feet long and has a string about three feet long tied through a hole in the end of it. I tie a pigeon's leg to the string. I carry the pigeon in one hand and the pipe in the other. When the puppy ventures out a some, I call to the puppy and then toss the pigeon, while holding on to the pipe. The pigeon flaps around and the puppy comes running. I may let the pigeon fall to the ground and let the puppy point it. I just generally tease the puppy with the pigeon. I will run the pup for twenty minutes or so and do this three or four times during the outing. After one or two outings, I have no trouble getting the puppy to respond to my call.

After a couple of weeks of this, I no longer use the pipe and string. I call the puppy and when he comes, I just toss the pigeon and let it fly home. The puppy chases the pigeon as long as he can. Again, I run the puppy for twenty, maybe thirty minutes at this point and three or four times, call to the puppy and toss a pigeon. I have no trouble getting the pups attention and getting him to come when I call. I continue to do this for months.

This drill has several benefits. First, the pup learns to go with me and pay attention to me at all times. The second benefit is that I can introduce the gun by firing while the pup is chasing a pigeon. The third benefit is interesting. At some point, after the puppy has chased a lot of pigeons, he begins to understand that the only thing he gets from chasing is hot and tired. Most dogs, at some point will just turn and watch the pigeon fly. They are 'stopping to flush', and not because I trained them to, but because they want to, it was their idea. This also helps later when breaking the dog, they have already stopped chasing to a large extent, steady to wing and shot is just an extension of that.

After a dog is completely broke, I will still continue to carry a few pigeons or quail with me during workouts. The dog will get a ways out, maybe out of sight, and I will wing lock a pigeon and throw it into some cover right beside me, or plant a quail in the cover right beside me, and call to the dog. They are happy to come to me, if they think they are going to find a bird. Now, I don't plant a bird every single time that I call my dog, but I do it often enough to make him think that I might.

Yes, I do use an ecollar to help with handling also, but I don't need to use it much.

+1 Very nice explanation of starting a pup. Over the years I used this same routine with both flushing dogs and pointy types. Some slight changes in timing ,technique, and bird use but over all very similar. Most dogs that I have started & trained are steady to W&S and retrieving by 9-12 months if not sooner. Big running dogs or not it works very well. as my UK friends have often said "Your Dogs are really with You"! easy peasey!!

[CDN_Cocker]

I'll say it right now. An e-collar has no place in correcting a dog for range. Disobeying the stop or turn whistle is one thing, but to randomly correct a dog for getting out too far is just confusing and stressful to a dog. I believe it is a completely improper way to use an ecollar.

[Soarer31]

The key here is is the whistle commands and hand signals
To turn left,right
To whoa/stop
To come in
Then distance is irrelevant

[Neil]

I'll say it right now. An e-collar has no place in correcting a dog for range. Disobeying the stop or turn whistle is one thing, but to randomly correct a dog for getting out too far is just confusing and stressful to a dog. I believe it is a completely improper way to use an ecollar.

I don' t think anyone recommended randomly correcting a dog for anything. But an e-collar has everything to do with enforcing a command at long distance. First you teach the command, then you demand compliance.

[CDN_Cocker]

I'll say it right now. An e-collar has no place in correcting a dog for range. Disobeying the stop or turn whistle is one thing, but to randomly correct a dog for getting out too far is just confusing and stressful to a dog. I believe it is a completely improper way to use an ecollar.

I don' t think anyone recommended randomly correcting a dog for anything. But an e-collar has everything to do with enforcing a command at long distance. First you teach the command, then you demand compliance.

My point is you are not correcting for "range". You are correcting for not obeying a command (sit/stop or turn)

[Neil]

I would hope that goes without saying, you left out recall/here. When they are just learning restricted range, I bring them all the way back to me. As they learn, turning and huping works better. I do it more with flushing dogs, as I don't want pointing dogs to yo yo.

It is dumb to use an e-collar before the command is known, other than snake proofing or to break off trash game.

[cjhills]

I'm a foot hunter and small time weekend foot field trialer. When I start walking a 9-10 week old puppy through light cover I carry a piece of 1 inch or so pvc pipe, the pipe is about three feet long and has a string about three feet long tied through a hole in the end of it. I tie a pigeon's leg to the string. I carry the pigeon in one hand and the pipe in the other. When the puppy ventures out a some, I call to the puppy and then toss the pigeon, while holding on to the pipe. The pigeon flaps around and the puppy comes running. I may let the pigeon fall to the ground and let the puppy point it. I just generally tease the puppy with the pigeon. I will run the pup for twenty minutes or so and do this three or four times during the outing. After one or two outings, I have no trouble getting the puppy to respond to my call.

After a couple of weeks of this, I no longer use the pipe and string. I call the puppy and when he comes, I just toss the pigeon and let it fly home. The puppy chases the pigeon as long as he can. Again, I run the puppy for twenty, maybe thirty minutes at this point and three or four times, call to the puppy and toss a pigeon. I have no trouble getting the pups attention and getting him to come when I call. I continue to do this for months.

This drill has several benefits. First, the pup learns to go with me and pay attention to me at all times. The second benefit is that I can introduce the gun by firing while the pup is chasing a pigeon. The third benefit is interesting. At some point, after the puppy has chased a lot of pigeons, he begins to understand that the only thing he gets from chasing is hot and tired. Most dogs, at some point will just turn and watch the pigeon fly. They are 'stopping to flush', and not because I trained them to, but because they want to, it was their idea. This also helps later when breaking the dog, they have already stopped chasing to a large extent, steady to wing and shot is just an extension of that.

After a dog is completely broke, I will still continue to carry a few pigeons or quail with me during workouts. The dog will get a ways out, maybe out of sight, and I will wing lock a pigeon and throw it into some cover right beside me, or plant a quail in the cover right beside me, and call to the dog. They are happy to come to me, if they think they are going to find a bird. Now, I don't plant a bird every single time that I call my dog, but I do it often enough to make him think that I might.

Yes, I do use an ecollar to help with handling also, but I don't need to use it much.

+1 Very nice explanation of starting a pup. Over the years I used this same routine with both flushing dogs and pointy types. Some slight changes in timing ,technique, and bird use but over all very similar. Most dogs that I have started & trained are steady to W&S and retrieving by 9-12 months if not sooner. Big running dogs or not it works very well. as my UK friends have often said "Your Dogs are really with You"! easy peasey!!

My problem with this system is the dogs learn very soon that I have the birds. They start to keep an eye on me and shorten up too much. this is exactly the system I would like to use. But how do you keep them going away when you have the prize?...........................Cj

[rinker]

An e-collar has no place in correcting a dog for range.
When a dog starts getting out of a range that I am comfortable with, I will call to the dog. If the dog does not respond, then I will correct with the ecollar.

The key here is is the whistle commands and hand signals
To turn left,right
To whoa/stop
To come in
Then distance is irrelevant
I prefer a bigger running dog, but at some point they can no longer hear your whistle, or see your hand signals.

My problem with this system is the dogs learn very soon that I have the birds. They start to keep an eye on me and shorten up too much. this is exactly the system I would like to use. But how do you keep them going away when you have the prize?...........................Cj
Early on, it probably does shorten them up too much. Over time, I do less and less of the pigeon tossing, or throwing down locked wing pigeons, etc... They eventually start finding birds on their own also, and this makes them more independent.

[RayGubernat]

My problem with this system is the dogs learn very soon that I have the birds. They start to keep an eye on me and shorten up too much. this is exactly the system I would like to use. But how do you keep them going away when you have the prize?...........................Cj[/quote]


CJ -

You are not giving the dogs enough credit. They will figure out how to find birds and they will go and do that, especially those dogs that have the ability and genetics to get out there and hunt the available country.

However, by instilling the idea that "the boss always has birds around him", the dog will always have that in the back of its mind. That imprint will cause the dog to keep an eye on where the boss is, and to check back occasionally, especially if there ain't much out there. Ideally, you will have created a push pull situation where the scent of birds "out there" will pull the dog to the likely cover, but the knowledge that the boss always seems to know where the birds are and have them around will tend to pull the dog back in.

RayG

[mask]

How about just teaching to come and turn on command. If a gimmick makes it easer go for it.

[cjhills]

My problem with this system is the dogs learn very soon that I have the birds. They start to keep an eye on me and shorten up too much. this is exactly the system I would like to use. But how do you keep them going away when you have the prize?...........................Cj

CJ -

You are not giving the dogs enough credit. They will figure out how to find birds and they will go and do that, especially those dogs that have the ability and genetics to get out there and hunt the available country.

However, by instilling the idea that "the boss always has birds around him", the dog will always have that in the back of its mind. That imprint will cause the dog to keep an eye on where the boss is, and to check back occasionally, especially if there ain't much out there. Ideally, you will have created a push pull situation where the scent of birds "out there" will pull the dog to the likely cover, but the knowledge that the boss always seems to know where the birds are and have them around will tend to pull the dog back in.

RayG

Actually I give the dogs a lot more credit then you do. My dogs are smart enough to know if I have a bag of birds and what I plan to do with them. They very quickly learn that it does not make a lot of sense to run all over the country when I have the birds. personally I let the dog do what it is born to do...........Cj

[Trekmoor]

How about just teaching to come and turn on command. If a gimmick makes it easer go for it.

That is what I do while trying at the same time not to inhibit a pup as a hunter.

Bill T.

[RayGubernat]

My problem with this system is the dogs learn very soon that I have the birds. They start to keep an eye on me and shorten up too much. this is exactly the system I would like to use. But how do you keep them going away when you have the prize?...........................Cj

CJ -

You are not giving the dogs enough credit. They will figure out how to find birds and they will go and do that, especially those dogs that have the ability and genetics to get out there and hunt the available country.

However, by instilling the idea that "the boss always has birds around him", the dog will always have that in the back of its mind. That imprint will cause the dog to keep an eye on where the boss is, and to check back occasionally, especially if there ain't much out there. Ideally, you will have created a push pull situation where the scent of birds "out there" will pull the dog to the likely cover, but the knowledge that the boss always seems to know where the birds are and have them around will tend to pull the dog back in.

RayG

Actually I give the dogs a lot more credit then you do. My dogs are smart enough to know if I have a bag of birds and what I plan to do with them. They very quickly learn that it does not make a lot of sense to run all over the country when I have the birds. personally I let the dog do what it is born to do...........Cj

Cj -

Whatever works for you. Lots of ways to get from here to there with bird dogs.

I know my dogs have always been able(eventually) to figure out the best way to find birds in most situations, from training to hunting to trialing. Finding birds is, after all, what they are best at. A lot of that has to do with my ability to put them in those different situations often enough for them to get the picture. I don't have wild birds at my disposal, with the exception of the woodcock flights coming and going, so I do other things. I do try to take advantage of the woodcock flights, especially for a young dog, but sometimes it just does not work out. What I do seems to work, at least it has so far.

If your dogs have your routine figured out, maybe it is time to mix it up a bit to keep them guessing and keep it fresh and fun. Just a thought.

There are times, in training when you want to be predictable so that the lesson can be "burned in" and the value of repetition can be realized. Yardwork and steadiness training are two areas where repeatability has value, but even there one must keep watch for signs of boredom or anticipation on the part of the dog. There are other times when you want to be somewhat unpredictable to challenge the dog and its training and expand the dog's abilities. If you have wild birds available, that makes being "unpredictable" fairly easy. Without wild birds it may be more difficult to throw cureveballs...and the occasional "knuckleball or scroogie...at the dog, but there are ways.

As I said...whatever works for you and your dogs.


RayG

[cjhills]

Dogs that are bred to run first and fine birds second are easier to fool than dogs that are bred to search for birds, whether they are near or far. If they know I have a bag of birds they do not see the reason to run to the horizon, if I do not have birds they go as far as it takes to find birds. I am always interested in a better way but we have to make sure that finding a bird is the main reason for having the dog.....Cj

[RayGubernat]

Dogs that are bred to run first and fine birds second are easier to fool than dogs that are bred to search for birds, whether they are near or far. If they know I have a bag of birds they do not see the reason to run to the horizon, if I do not have birds they go as far as it takes to find birds. I am always interested in a better way but we have to make sure that finding a bird is the main reason for having the dog.....Cj

I honestly don't know anyone who breeds dogs to run first and find birds second. Everyone I have ever dealt with goes after it the other way 'round.

Finding birds should ALWAYS be the first order of business for a bird dog, IMO. Hounds run, bird dogs hunt. Some just hunt bigger than others, especially if they have the ability and are encouraged to do so, instead of being actively discouraged from reaching out.

RayG

[rinker]

Mr. Hills, I just explained what I do and what works for me. I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. The first person that I ever heard about running puppies and tossing pigeons the way that I described is Ferrel Miller. I have seen a photo somewhere of Ferrel and Ike Todd on horseback with a bunch of puppies and Ike has a pigeon on a string like I described. All of the horseback all-age field trialers that I know, do this with puppies to some extent. This is how I learned it. I have never met Sean Derrig, but I have seen several videos of him tossing dizzied pigeons in the cover right next to him and then calling puppies in to find them. These fellows never seem to have a problem with their dogs running enough and finding enough birds when the time comes.

I like to shorten dogs up early, and then as I gain trust in them I let them run more and more. This works for me, but I'm sure there are numerous ways to successfully work a bird dog.

[RayGubernat]

Mr. Hills, I just explained what I do and what works for me. I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. The first person that I ever heard about running puppies and tossing pigeons the way that I described is Ferrel Miller. I have seen a photo somewhere of Ferrel and Ike Todd on horseback with a bunch of puppies and Ike has a pigeon on a string like I described. All of the horseback all-age field trialers that I know, do this with puppies to some extent. This is how I learned it. I have never met Sean Derrig, but I have seen several videos of him tossing dizzied pigeons in the cover right next to him and then calling puppies in to find them. These fellows never seem to have a problem with their dogs running enough and finding enough birds when the time comes.

I like to shorten dogs up early, and then as I gain trust in them I let them run more and more. This works for me, but I'm sure there are numerous ways to successfully work a bird dog.

You are in very good company with that approach. No family of trainers is as successful as the Tracy clan. The Tracys like to keep their young dogs right in front of them and I do mean RIGHT IN FRONT.

There are as many ways to develop a bird dog as there are trainers. Each person develops a training method that works best for them. A good bit of the specifics do depend on just what kind of facilities the trainer has available, how much time they have for training, what kind of dog they are attempting to develop and what the end product will be expected to do in the field.

The trainers that have trained dozens, scores or hundreds of dogs successfully are the ones whom I want to watch and learn from, for the most part, because they have seen it all and done it all as well. The trainers that have trained their dogs to the highest level of finish are also those I want to watch and learn from.

RayG