Dog pointing too far from bird?

nels2413 · Post by **nels2413** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:48 pm

I have been trying to get my 1.5 year old brittany out with pigeons in a launcher at least a few times per week. She is my first pointing dog so we are both learning. Lately if there is a light, steady breeze she will lock up on the pigeon from 30-40 yards away. What is the best thing to do in this situation? Should I walk up and launch the bird like I would if she was closer? Do I snap a leash on and try to ease her in? I don't want to inhibit her from stopping on first scent, at the same time I would doubt many wild birds are going to hold tight at that distance.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:04 pm

You do absolutely nothing. You want the dog to point as far away as possible. Your dog has a good nose and you will do more harm by trying to get your dog close the bird. I repeat leave the dog alone and be glad he/she points that far away. Launch the bird at the first movement the dog makes. Wild birds are way more sensitive than pen birds and a dog trained on pen birds will crowd wild birds causing them to flush wild. Your analysis is opposite of what it should be.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:49 pm

Vision wrote:You do absolutely nothing. You want the dog to point as far away as possible. Your dog has a good nose and you will do more harm by trying to get your dog close the bird. I repeat leave the dog alone and be glad he/she points that far away. Launch the bird at the first movement the dog makes. Wild birds are way more sensitive than pen birds and a dog trained on pen birds will crowd wild birds causing them to flush wild. Your analysis is opposite of what it should be.

+1 DO NOT DO ANYTHING. Sound like you have a great dog.

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:02 pm

Yup. Sounds like your dog has a great nose. Why mess with it

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:42 pm

Let me guess.... You have too much money as well!! I'll do you a favor and take both the dog and the money

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:22 pm

I generally agree with everyone else, but there is another possibility. Your pup may have figured out the game. He may be pointing because he knows there is a bird out there, whether he smells it or not. The next time you work him, do everything exactly the same except don't put a bird in your launcher. Bring the pup in the same as always and see if he points.

nels2413 · Post by **nels2413** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:10 pm

rinker wrote:I generally agree with everyone else, but there is another possibility. Your pup may have figured out the game. He may be pointing because he knows there is a bird out there, whether he smells it or not. The next time you work him, do everything exactly the same except don't put a bird in your launcher. Bring the pup in the same as always and see if he points.

I did exactly what you said, left the launcher at home in case it smelled of birds, but still went and stuck a flag in the ground and took the dog out tonight. Sure enough she got within about 10 yards of the flag and went on point... Guess I'll have to leave the flag in the truck for awhile, but it might get tricky to know precisely where the launcher is as our entire field looks very similar throughout the whole thing.

getzapped · Post by **getzapped** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:22 pm

The dog was just pointing at the flag with no bird there?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:28 pm

Never mark the bird location, the dog is supposed to find it. Also don't plant the bird in the same place.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:29 pm

Why do you think there was a discrepancy in the distance (30 yards previously vs. 10 yards today)?

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:20 pm

rinker wrote:I generally agree with everyone else, but there is another possibility. Your pup may have figured out the game. He may be pointing because he knows there is a bird out there, whether he smells it or not. The next time you work him, do everything exactly the same except don't put a bird in your launcher. Bring the pup in the same as always and see if he points.

You win the prize.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:35 pm

rinker wrote:I generally agree with everyone else, but there is another possibility. Your pup may have figured out the game. He may be pointing because he knows there is a bird out there, whether he smells it or not. The next time you work him, do everything exactly the same except don't put a bird in your launcher. Bring the pup in the same as always and see if he points.

Good call.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:07 am

Interesting you didn't mention the flag in original post. Any smart dog will see the slightest cue. I tried that one time and never did it again. Take the dog out on wild birds and leave the pigeons home.

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:49 am

Throw that flag away. He has been relying on sight instead of scent.

vizslatrainer · Post by **vizslatrainer** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:49 am

Are you using a launcher with a remote? There are a lot of dogs are scared to death of those launchers. Your pup may be trying to stay away. Scenting and pointing at 40 yrds is not a good thing, you will never find the wild bird to flush. Dizzy a pigeon and see if you get the same results. I bet you dont.

mask · Post by **mask** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:04 am

Dogs can get a little sticky especially if you train in the same place the same way. A dizzied bird in a different location could tell you what is going on. The flag may no longer be a real good idea at this stage. You noted that the dog did this into a steady breeze which is not unusual for a dog with a good nose. 40 yards is certainly not to far for the type hunting we do and the birds we hunt. I think you have a keeper though you might just want to free run the dog where there are no birds once in a while.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:20 pm

and try to change fields regularly if you can.
I've found that after I have been training a pup for awhile , (not regularly using a launcher and no ribbons/flags), it will still check out all the possible bushes etc first. Smart little characters.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:20 pm

I have a young Brittany and she is only too good at remembering where she has found snipe in the past . She points the snipe "splash" even if no snipe is there. If your dog is used to finding game because you have planted birds there several times it may be pointing the "place" rather than a bird. I noticed this was the case with my Brittany when she pointed a splash from maybe 40 yards back from it ......on a tail wind. It had only needed two points on snipe there and she had remembered the "place."

Bill T.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:58 pm

nels2413 wrote:I have been trying to get my 1.5 year old brittany out with pigeons in a launcher at least a few times per week. She is my first pointing dog so we are both learning. Lately if there is a light, steady breeze she will lock up on the pigeon from 30-40 yards away. What is the best thing to do in this situation? Should I walk up and launch the bird like I would if she was closer? Do I snap a leash on and try to ease her in? I don't want to inhibit her from stopping on first scent, at the same time I would doubt many wild birds are going to hold tight at that distance.

What are you trying to achieve.> ? ..Flush or point?...In the absence of your replies to the previous posts regarding 'pointing'

Another ?..why do you mention 'snap the leash' ? ..in any scenario ?

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:41 pm

you have a smart dog. Also do not train to much. My pup got burned out on training, especially with pigeons. In the field that my trainer uses she is never staunch. My avatar was taken recently, but she was pointing a wild covey 25 yards off. Markers? I used a small bleached log and the surrounding area as a marker 12 months ago, 3 or 4 times. She always checks out that area still to this day.

nels2413 · Post by **nels2413** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:01 pm

Thanks for all the replies, all are very useful. To answer a few questions, I only have close access to 1 field, but it's 40+ acres and I never put birds in the same spot. She has never acted nervous or skittish around the remote launcher. Dizzied pigeons get me a little nervous at this point as she is not consistently steady to flush and I don't want her catching a bird. I want her steady on point, the leash comment was meant as a way to slowly ease her into the bird because if I just released her she would just sprint to it (don't worry I don't plan on the leash or to release her for being too far). I took her out again tonight and put a flag out with no bird and she did go investigate, but no point tonight. I will try to vary things up more and will try to get her out on some wild birds soon.

skunk · Post by **skunk** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:10 pm

You can mark the location of the bird with flagging tape but do so in a more subtle manner so the flag isn't terribly obvious to the dog and isn't flapping in the wind, etc.

Try knotting the tape at the top and then pull it down the branch, grass, whatever-you're-tying-it-to, and knot the other end as well. So the tape should be tight to the stem of the branch, etc.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:18 pm

Or you can just ditch the launcher and pigeons !

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:37 pm

Elkhunter wrote:Or you can just ditch the launcher and pigeons !

Why do people who have native birds to train with have such a hard time accepting that some people aren't that lucky or even that there are times it is advantageous to be able to control the bird as well as the dog?

GWPtyler · Post by **GWPtyler** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:50 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:Or you can just ditch the launcher and pigeons !
Why do people who have native birds to train with have such a hard time accepting that some people aren't that lucky or even that there are times it is advantageous to be able to control the bird as well as the dog?

Agreed. Plus, many states don't allow you to run on wild birds prior to the season. I know in MN it's illegal during the summer on state land, or maybe just part of the summer. Don't know as I don't train there, but ND rules are similar.

Get rid of the marker and try to put the traps near a spot that you can better identify, whether it's a change in cover or a wild flower or even a dead oddball stick. I often get disoriented and will sometimes use the locator just so I know where the trap is. So far the dogs haven't caught on, but I'm careful only to try and locate it when they're searching away from the general area.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:41 pm

Well shoot. I don't agree with anyone. I would ignore the dog and keep going hoping the dog will break off and go with me or relocate on it's own, preferably relocate on it's own. Problem with a dog pointing that far off is that at 40 yds, it's not gonna hold the birds, no wild birds anyway. Dog get's to about 20yds and the chance of holding them goes way up. At 40 yds with much breeze, the scent is gonna be blown all over and while the dog probably has scent, it has little idea where the scent is coming from over there. If the bird is a very small covey or a single bird, getting closer become's much easier for the dog. Small covey's and especially single birds get caught off guard often and hunker down to try and avoid the dog. But you do want the dog back a bit as getting to close to even a single without good cover to hide in will usually move the bird. What I always did for that was have the dog on a good find out a bit and relocate it right into the bird. Then maybe 10-15 feet from the bird, launch it. Just keep shut up and launch the bird. The dog has encroached on the bird and doesn't know it, you do! very important to know exactly where your bird is. Your gonna do that a few time's and then your gonna find your dog will get only so close and will not relocate. later when you get on wild birds, the wild one's will teach your dog how close to close is. Sounds like you only have one launcher, three work's better because one bird does not mean end of exercise, two more birds down. Get use to popping the bird with any movement at all from the dog. Your dog will discover that it's movement's move the bird, that will tighten up your dog on point and if the bird is fairly close to the dog, a dog with a lot of intensity will hold the bird better. Do mark your birds, very important you know where they are. And expect the dog to find out that all it has to do is go to a mark and there's a bird there. I use surveyor's tape, a kind of rust color. I tried bright orange and it's like a signal beacon out there. The rust color will be harder for your dog to see. And the big giveway to the dog is the tape waving in the wind, tie both ends so it does not fly around. And put the tape away from the bird on the up wind side. Make a not of where your trap is in relation to the flag, non-blowing around flag. Remember to put it on the up wind side and 20 or 30 yds away from the plant. A dog looking for the flags will go toward the flag and a lot of time's cut between the bird and the flag, lesson learned, flag does not mean a bird! By the time your dog figure's that out, he'll be off the launcher! At that point you could start using pen raised birds or learn to put pigeon's to sleep or dizzy them.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:06 pm

GWPtyler wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:Or you can just ditch the launcher and pigeons !
Why do people who have native birds to train with have such a hard time accepting that some people aren't that lucky or even that there are times it is advantageous to be able to control the bird as well as the dog?
Agreed. Plus, many states don't allow you to run on wild birds prior to the season. I know in MN it's illegal during the summer on state land, or maybe just part of the summer.

Just to clarify, it's only closed from April 16th to July 14th in MN. But that's on state run WMAs. I know some folks who don't abide by these rules, which is regrettable due to how much effort MN puts into these public habitats.

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:23 pm

nels2413 wrote: ... she is not consistently steady to flush and I don't want her catching a bird. I want her steady on point...

Stick with your check cording and popping the bird but dont let her smell it untill she will stand the flush of the bird. Then proceed to where you are now. Move on when you accomplish what you want in each phase of training.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:17 pm

bonasa wrote:
nels2413 wrote: ... she is not consistently steady to flush and I don't want her catching a bird. I want her steady on point...
Stick with your check cording and popping the bird but dont let her smell it untill she will stand the flush of the bird. Then proceed to where you are now. Move on when you accomplish what you want in each phase of training.

Don't let her smell it until she will stand the flush of the bird? How does she find the bird in the first place if he doesn't let her smell it?

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:03 am

I think that he/she is talking about 'stop to flush' drills.

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:44 am

DonF wrote:
bonasa wrote:
nels2413 wrote: ... she is not consistently steady to flush and I don't want her catching a bird. I want her steady on point...
Stick with your check cording and popping the bird but dont let her smell it untill she will stand the flush of the bird. Then proceed to where you are now. Move on when you accomplish what you want in each phase of training.
Don't let her smell it until she will stand the flush of the bird? How does she find the bird in the first place if he doesn't let her smell it?

Hi Don,
I'd take that chase away (stop to flush) as the owner requested.Then chain the scent of the bird to the flush. Proceed when proficiency is attained.

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